Hypothetical question for the seaplane operators: Flying in a PA-18 150HP...

[8GCBC]

Hypothetical question for the seaplane operators:

You are flying in a PA-18 150HP with Aerocet 2200 composite floats in the Northern Hemisphere. Half fuel tanks.

There is a river flowing at 5 knots straight South, it is 100 feet wide, 8 feet deep in the middle. The water temperature is 45F, light rain, visibility 5 miles, density altitude 1500 feet. The wind is blowing steady from 350 @ 15 knots, there are no obstructions over 15 feet within 3 miles.

Your destination is a small 35 foot pier along the west side of the river parallel to the current. The current at the pier is only 1 knot.

Question: Do you water land in the river and if so which direction -- North (upwind against current) or South (downwind with the current)?

Please give reason(s) for your answer(s).

Thank you.

-- 8GCBC

[Cajun Joe]

I just saw this on Jepordy.
i missed it.

[Tom Jones]

What's my motivation for landing? Is there beer on the pier?

Tom

[NimpoCub]

Normally you'd like to land WITH the current, but with a 15Kt headwind, I'd use that. (land into the wind & deal w/the current) Keep the tail down on touchdown. Tricky parts will be the turn to the downwind, (cuz your door is on right, right?) but should be doable in 15Kts, and of course gliding close enough to the dock to jump on it & get the Cub stopped. Very limited experience in current here, so sticking the neck out! :)

[8GCBC]

Amendment: There are three kegs of beer on ice waiting at the pier free for the taking.

[8GCBC]

Normally you'd like to land WITH the current, but with a 15Kt headwind, I'd use that. (land into the wind & deal w/the current) Keep the tail down on touchdown. Tricky parts will be the turn to the downwind, (cuz your door is on right, right?) but should be doable in 15Kts, and of course gliding close enough to the dock to jump on it & get the Cub stopped. Very limited experience in current here, so sticking the neck out! :)

Thanks Nimpo Cub, I did not think about the right door syndrome. I would choose upwind even with the current (I think).

[8GCBC]

Keep the tail down on touchdown.

This is good advice, for not pitching forward with the +5 knots increase in water speed!

Note: Chop is less with wind and current together and more chop when current and wind oppose each other.

[Cajun Joe]

See, thiis is where I never could get my feeble mind around this
whole wind vs current thingee.So I see myself in a landing config
flying north at 50 k TAS.I know there is a 5k South midstream current
and a 13.5 k headwindcomponent.
So I reason a 37.5 knot touchdown water speed.

This is where I failed the 3500 dollar Jeopardy question.



PS: I am not a real seaplane operator but ....
I try my best to fly one.

[8GCBC]

See, thiis is where I never could get my feeble mind around this
whole wind vs current thingee.So I see myself in a landing config
flying north at 50 k TAS.I know there is a 5k South midstream current
and a 13.5 k headwindcomponent.
So I reason a 37.5 knot touchdown water speed.


Mr. Cajun Joe:

From what is said above, you would choose an upwind water landing. The headwind component is strong enough to mitigate the 5 knot Southerly current.

TAS = 50kts
Headwind component = +14kts
SOG = 36kts
Current = +5kts
Water speed = 41 kts

Thank you.

--8GCBC

[Cajun Joe]

NOOOOOOOO>
I must be wrong. See my Jeopardy disclaimer...
AND I AM NOT AN OPERATOR.

Just ask Massey


(what is SOG??? save our boys?)
Sorry., just being a dumb coonass here
but what is SOG

[8GCBC]

Hey Joe:

SOG = Speed over Ground.

May I ask what your TT is?

--8GCBC

[mvivion]

This one's a no brainer: Land upcurrent into the wind. First, a five knot current is no big deal. In a calm wind, I'd land whichever way I happened to arrive and was most convenient to the dock.

Second, a fifteen knot tailwind on landing isn't exceedingly dangerous, but it would impart a significant and needless risk in my opinion.

MTV

[sierra bravo]

The only interesting part of the scenario would be docking it if nobody's there to help.

[8GCBC]

This one's a no brainer: Land upcurrent into the wind. First, a five knot current is no big deal. In a calm wind, I'd land whichever way I happened to arrive and was most convenient to the dock.

Second, a fifteen knot tailwind on landing isn't exceedingly dangerous, but it would impart a significant and needless risk in my opinion.

MTV

MTV:

Mahalo (Thank you). I choose the same direction too.

-8GCBC

[cubdriver2]

I'd land upwind and at idle float back downstream and take the dock on the left side even though the doors on the right. No help needed

Glenn

[8GCBC]

I'd land upwind and at idle float back downstream and take the dock on the left side even though the doors on the right. No help needed

Glenn

Hey Glenn:

Good! The river is only 100' wide. This would make turning around a possibly hard maneuver. Sailing back is a solid technique.

Also, leaving the dock upwind into the cuurent may be an asset too.

--8GCBC

[Cajun Joe]

Ok what is a TT?

What not land a half mile downstream and taxi to the dock?
you say the landing. Zone is 3 miles?

[aktango58]

remember, downwind and down current means NO directional control until you are traveling faster than the current...


land and take off upwind!!!!

Yea, the book say always go down current, but they are written by dorks that have never flown in a narrow channel.

the 180 I used to have would take about 20% more distance to get off the water with a 7 kt tailwind...

Think about your speed at 50 on landing... awful fast for floats...

In a no wind situation, wide river, yes downwind is nice. but it can cause trouble if you need to turn. swift rivers will push you onto step, and the less you are in the water, the less drag you have... and the more control.

As far as docking, the sailing is good, but be ready with a paddle and watch for objects sticking above the pier that might eat a wing... or the tail...

I have forgone docks for the beach at times because it was easier and safer for the plane.

[NimpoCub]

Easy way out... is there room to taxi between the dock & the shore?
IF you taxi up to the dock on your left, how the H do you get on the dock in time to "catch" the Cub??

I have a scenario coming up this summer where I'll land on a river (likely the same 5Kt current) and haft'a beach on a rocky (baseball size rocks?) "beach". What good ideas for not damaging my floats?? (I know, don't go there, but I wanna.)
Hi Dale! (No, not you Dale, the other one) :)

[aktango58]

Logan,

do it the easy way... shut down in the middle, rig your anchor, taxi close shut down and drift, when close drop the anchor to hold while you get out and get into the water and walk the bird into the shore...

or you just get out quick and be ready to go deep in the water to fend her off... having lots of beach helps on this one.


Another thing to remember is that them stupid cleats on the bows HURT like hell when you stub your toe on them running to save the bows...

One of the worst problems with parking on rocky stuff is the waves/wakes and such. Remember, many rivers surge and have inconsistent levels, some make their own waves at times. Movement of floats against the rocks cause damage. I often tie my beach line to my anchor and set the anchor on the float, pushing the plane off the beach... when she gets out a bit I pull the line and let the anchor drop. Tie off the line really well folks.

When time to go, pull the anchor in and the plane, load and go. Let the plane float on it's own and not rub the beach.

[8GCBC]

Mr. Nimpo Cub:

I like your ideas...


Easy way out... is there room to taxi between the dock & the shore?
IF you taxi up to the dock on your left, how the H do you get on the dock in time to "catch" the Cub??

There is no room on the shore to get between the pier and the beach. There is also a slight 1 knot x-wind (350/15). Have the door open, seat beats off, master/mags/mixture off and jump across to the pier! The shore is sand so if you don't make, no big deal, just wet feet.


I have a scenario coming up this summer where I'll land on a river (likely the same 5Kt current) and haft'a beach on a rocky (baseball size rocks?) "beach". What good ideas for not damaging my floats?? (I know, don't go there, but I wanna.)
Hi Dale! (No, not you Dale, the other one) :)

Can you anchor and wade across to the shore? Maybe to cold?

--8GCBC

[sierra bravo]

If the shore is sand you simply drive the plane onto the beach, get out, spin the plane around, and drag the tails up to hold it there. Tie the tail rope to something and then walk to the dock.

[8GCBC]

Ok what is a TT?

What not land a half mile downstream and taxi to the dock?
you say the landing. Zone is 3 miles?

Hi Joe:

TT is Total Time and is generally accepted as the amount of time you have as PIC (Pilot in Command) of an aircraft. There is also SIC (second in command) etc., but I use TT/PIC when evaluating pilots. This helps me have a predictable conversation with them.

A good pilot could easily water land down stream and end at the dock facing upwind with no taxiing or sailing too. You noticed there are no restrictions for take-off or approach within 3 miles.

-- 8CGBC

[8GCBC]

If the shore is sand you simply drive the plane onto the beach, get out, spin the plane around, and drag the tails up to hold it there. Tie the tail rope to something and then walk to the dock.

Yes. But, your new girl friend is waiting at the pier. She does not want to get sand in her shoes and wants to use the pier.

You must use the pier to make sure she gets a good feeling about seaplanes. Her father owns the river and the land.

[sierra bravo]

Sorry. I was interjecting reality into your hypothetical exercise. My wife would be wearing hip boots and a float coat and would expect to help without being asked. Even when the situation requires swimming after the plane. Run that one by your girlfriend. :-)

[cubdriver2]

To me TT means nothing, I've had 30,000 hr guys in the front seat of the J3/Pa11/Stearman that didn't know enough to put their feet on the rudder pedels to fly it. On the other hand I've had some 100hr guys/gals in the same that without a slip/skid were dead nuts on the whole flight. Sleeping in the front seat of an Airbus for 30,000 hrs does nothing but give you a big fat logbook. Opinion

Glenn

[NimpoCub]

Yes. But, your new girl friend is waiting at the pier. She does not want to get sand in her shoes and wants to use the pier.

I suspect (predict) a new girlfriend in the future.
With beer on the dock, you just do what ya gotta do. (No choking involved! :) )

[8GCBC]

To me TT means nothing, I've had 30,000 hr guys in the front seat of the J3/Pa11/Stearman that didn't know enough to put their feet on the rudder pedels to fly it. On the other hand I've had some 100hr guys/gals in the same that without a slip/skid were dead nuts on the whole flight. Sleeping in the front seat of an Airbus for 30,000 hrs does nothing but give you a big fat logbook. Opinion

Glenn

Hi Glenn:

Very true. However, you would use terms with a 30K hr PIC that a 30 hrs PIC would not know/understand when talking?

TT/PIC also helps with rating, jobs, insurance too.

-- 8GCBC

[8GCBC]

Sorry. I was interjecting reality into your hypothetical exercise. My wife would be wearing hip boots and a float coat and would expect to help without being asked. Even when the situation requires swimming after the plane. Run that one by your girlfriend. :-)

SB:

The reality is I have a wife too! And if there is any chance of damaging the Scout, see would jump into 45F water no problems!

--8GCBC

[sierra bravo]

Back to your scenario, the approach to docking is totally different if the dock is attended by anyone who can catch a wing rope. Even a prissy girlfriend with Kardashian nails.

Up the ante to 30kts of wind. Add rollers that are capping and swirling gusts. That's when things get more interesting. Especially when you ride a crest to have the keels grab the river bottom in a trough. And the wind's making it worse by the second. Picking up the tail to the rhythm of the waves and pushing you further from deeper water. And the planes loaded. That's the stuff of memorable afternoons. And the reason for hip boots and fully clothed swimming. One reason, that is. :-) I got a sentimental shiver had started to miss float flying until I thought about this thread. I'm over it now.

[8GCBC]

Back to your scenario, the approach to docking is totally different if the dock is attended by anyone who can catch a wing rope. Even a prissy girlfriend with Kardashian nails.

Up the ante to 30kts of wind. Add rollers that are capping and swirling gusts. That's when things get more interesting. Especially when you ride a crest to have the keels grab the river bottom in a trough. And the wind's making it worse by the second. Picking up the tail to the rhythm of the waves and pushing you further from deeper water. And the planes loaded. That's the stuff of memorable afternoons. And the reason for hip boots and fully clothed swimming. One reason, that is. :-) I got a sentimental shiver had started to miss float flying until I thought about this thread. I'm over it now.

SB:

Where did you fly? It seems there was hostile weather there?

--8GCBC

[sierra bravo]

Alaska. Still fly, just not on floats. The weather's hostile right now. About a half mile vis in heavy snow outside my window. Forget the airplane. Dig out the SkiDoo!

Every dumbass water maneuver I ever did on floats I had already perfected in riverboats. And then some. I still love Alaskan rivers.

[8GCBC]

Alaska. Still fly, just not on floats. The weather's hostile right now. About a half mile vis in heavy snow outside my window. Forget the airplane. Dig out the SkiDoo!

SB:

The water in Alaska looks gnarly! I want to check it out oneday.

Do recommend the coastal route from Washigton State or the Alaska Hwy? I have amphibs.

--8GCBC

[sierra bravo]

Wrong guy to ask. I prefer 737s and a cocktail for that trip.

[8GCBC]

Wrong guy to ask. I prefer 737s and a cocktail for that trip.


"Roger that"! Do you prefer aluminum river boats like the Hewes Craft? I have a PC26 with twin Honda 150s.

[sierra bravo]

Used to be a Silver Streak and Wooldridge owner. Loved it but airplanes are faster and more efficient. I use jon boats for local travel these days. The smaller the better. Smaller boats are easier to un-park after unintentionally parking them.

[8GCBC]

Used to be a Silver Streak and Wooldridge owner. Loved it but airplanes are faster and more efficient. I use jon boats for local travel these days. The smaller the better. Smaller boats are easier to un-park after unintentionally parking them.

I agree, smaller the better for boats. I also look at boats as something that can be lost quickly! Thank you for your answers.

[8GCBC]

TT is Total Time
Oh Total Time.
I usually last 38 seconds
after that it's up to her

Low "stick" time!

Just like me, no Viagra needed. :-)

[Cajun Joe]

ok...
I'M OUTTTA HERE

[8GCBC]

ok...
I'M OUTTTA HERE

Joe, hope to see you back in the seaplane forum soon! It was a trip reading your comments.

[haphogan]

i would land into wind. north. it is much easier to maneuver up stream into the dock.

[Alex Clark]

I land in a river with a 5 knot current a couple times a week and it is rather insignificant compared to the winds. Since the surface of rivers are often smooth , even in wind conditions, I usually make a galssy water type approach and touch down, so the water friction does not make a big difference.

Into the winds and against the current will make a short landing and let you basically stand still (in reference to the river shore) as long as you slow down your idle speed by using carb heat and one magneto. In fact you may even go backwards if you drop your flaps...

So you could either power-sail sideways to the pier,,, or go up river and power-off-sail back to the dock....

If you have another trusted person in your back seat, ,, kill the engine, let them cross over to the left side float via the cross-over cable and then restart the engine to idle over to the dock.

If you are solo, you will have to sail backwards in power-off mode and catch the dock..... OR.. as I have done in certain bad weather conditions when solo,, crawl out the left side window and operate the throttle, mix and stick while standing on the left float and hope like hell it works when you get close enogh to the dock. A wolf hunting window on the left side really helps...

I once crawled under the plane and across the spreader bars with the engine idling, (25 knot winds and white caps) so I could get to the other float. It was a close call and I won't do that again...

Another option... Go someplace else