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Cost to build a "stock" Super Cub from scratch

travis

Registered User
Hello all, I'm new to the forum, I have been lurking around for a while but this is my first post. I'm an Aerospace Engineer, I was a welder before I went to college and I have quite a bit of wood working experience so I'm pretty confident that with my back ground and help from really smart people on forums such as this one I could build a Super Cub.

Okay, I know this is a loaded question but here goes.

If one wanted to build a PA-18-180, keeping cost low and not adding any "extras", keeping to the original design, what would it cost, ballpark to build a Super Cub? I'm working on my PPL, I'm looking at getting a Fly Baby just as an inexpensive way to get in the air without breaking to bank so that down the road I can get/build the plane of my dreams. It just seems to me that a "stock" Super Cub should not cost 100-150K! After al,l this aircraft was really affordable when they were first produced. I get the lawyers and stuff when buying a high end kit or turnkey cub and that they are collector’s items and those things drive the cost up. What am I missing here?

Just based on inflation, something that cost $2500 in 1945 would cost $30,000 today. Could a PA-18 be built for 30K? Where is rise in cost coming from? I know the engine is going to be expensive and that is a big factor in driving the cost up but what else is making the cost so high?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to get an idea of what I could build a Super Cub for?

Thanks
Travis
 
Used O-320, 10 grand. If you are a weldor/fabricator, fuselage and weldments about 2 grand worth of raw material. Stock wings for sale from time to time. All the extras such as wheels and brakes, instruments etc. 15 grand. It's cheaper to buy a beater than spend five plus years building.
 
Used O-320, 10 grand. If you are a weldor/fabricator, fuselage and weldments about 2 grand worth of raw material. Stock wings for sale from time to time. All the extras such as wheels and brakes, instruments etc. 15 grand. It's cheaper to buy a beater than spend five plus years building.

Unless, of course, you like building.:roll: But, beware, that gets in the way of flying. Go for the Fly Baby and have fun. Work on the flying skills as you build a cub. Lot's of resources here and try www.supercubproject.com Christian's site has all kinds of useful, good to know information. Always plan cost expansion and time expansion into your otherwise simple project. Good luck. Dreamers do finish them!
 
I bought a new Backcountry kit. This coupled with some stuff which I have had in my "collection" I expect that I will have about $70,000 out of pocket in a new 180 Cub on floats. You should be able to do it for less if building from scratch.
 
It just seems to me that a "stock" Super Cub should not cost 100-150K!

Right you are. SuperCubs are NOT worth what they sell for, but the demand is what puts the price up there. Same as real estate, the same house in different place will make a huge difference. It's not what it "is", it's what folks are willing to pay.

If you build from scratch or a kit, I think it's fair to factor in the value of doing it yourself. You will likely spend more than if you bought a fair-shape Cub ready to fly, but the value of knowing every nut/bolt/pulley/etc, and the satisfaction of having done it is valuable (to you only tho). I can attest that flying a plane you've (re)built is far more pleasurable than something you've just bought.

Know that the time & $$ will be 1.5 to 2X what you plan, for your first build. Next one will go much faster because you've been through the "learning curve". If you can afford a flyable plane while you build, you're golden. The withdrawal pains really hurt when you're 50% done, with 75% to go, and your buddy buzzes your shop. :)
 
The "stock" Super Cub that you talk about costing 100-150k most likely are not stock. While they might look stock in appearance, they have mods done to them such as extended baggage compartments, overhead X bar, folding front seat, underseat battery, 3" extended gear, oversized tires, etc. etc. The list goes on.
 
What's the impact of using a set of factory wings on a cub where you scratch built everything else? Would the FAA totally frown on it?
 
Scratch built super Cub

After quite a bit of research I found that building a new Super Cub from one of the currently available kits will run somewhere in the neighborhood of $100-120K if you go with all new parts and minimal VFR radio gear. With used parts you can get the price down by maybe $15K. Going NORDO will save you another $5000. If you weld the fuselage yourself from tubing and plans it is probably reasonable to look at $70K for a minimally equipped SC.

Of course, you can always spend more. Start with a nice Dakota or Backcountry kit, add some 31" Bushwheels, an MT constant-speed prop, some Alpha Omega gear, a Dynon Skyview panel, and a few other goodies and you have left $120K in the dust behind you somewhere.

Dave Prizio
 
Hello all, I'm new to the forum, I have been lurking around for a while but this is my first post. I'm an Aerospace Engineer, I was a welder before I went to college and I have quite a bit of wood working experience so I'm pretty confident that with my back ground and help from really smart people on forums such as this one I could build a Super Cub.

Okay, I know this is a loaded question but here goes.

If one wanted to build a PA-18-180, keeping cost low and not adding any "extras", keeping to the original design, what would it cost, ballpark to build a Super Cub? I'm working on my PPL, I'm looking at getting a Fly Baby just as an inexpensive way to get in the air without breaking to bank so that down the road I can get/build the plane of my dreams. It just seems to me that a "stock" Super Cub should not cost 100-150K! After al,l this aircraft was really affordable when they were first produced. I get the lawyers and stuff when buying a high end kit or turnkey cub and that they are collector’s items and those things drive the cost up. What am I missing here?

Just based on inflation, something that cost $2500 in 1945 would cost $30,000 today. Could a PA-18 be built for 30K? Where is rise in cost coming from? I know the engine is going to be expensive and that is a big factor in driving the cost up but what else is making the cost so high?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to get an idea of what I could build a Super Cub for?

Thanks
Travis

Building and restoring in 2011 is more expensive than 2004-2009 or so. There are great buys out there if you look.

The best thing to do is take your $$ for the flybaby that you have and possibly look into a loan for the extra funds for a supercub. Be ready to strike when you find the deal.

There are a couple good deals on arctic terns floating around also.

Tim
 
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Going NORDO will save you another $5000.

This is for sure high. The rest of it looks about right. A good radio setup can be had for under $500, including intercom and gel cell. Headsets extra.

A good used Super Cub can be had for 50-60K if you look. With radio.
 
Greetings, welcome to SC.org!

Your questions have been asked before. You need to ask yourself a question, do you like to build? No really, DO YOU LIKE TO BUILD? If so, then don't listen to the naysayers on building a Cub inexpensively. I have done it. < $45K for what I have on my web site and it is brand new with 180hp, not a certified "beater" that has been to hell and back.

You have to be good at scrounging and jumping on a deal when you see one. You can pinch pennies on scratch built stuff and then splurge when needed on hard to fabricate parts. The best part of building a Cub is you can choose what to build and also buy some prefabricated parts.

As far as building your Cub from a set of certified wings. You can likely do this. Keep in mind you have to prove you built 51% of your experimental. There is a very simple spreadsheet that the DARs/FAA use to determine this. They will go line by line and ask what you built and what was prefabricated. It doesn't matter if it was a certified part or not, they only care if you built it or not.

Hope this helps!
 
I'm with Bugs. You really have to like building. I'm not done with my 2+2 yet (PA14 clone) but have fuselage on the gear with wheels, wings about done except for control surfaces on one (have all materials), tail feathers done, have seats, complete fire wall forward, radios, transponder, GPS, etc and I have about 12K invested. I suspect I will finish at about $25K. Time? 5-7 years of part time work (2500+ hours likely) When done I will have a "New" aircraft that I can maintain myself. With a Cub you can invest any level you want depending on how much you build and how much you buy and how much you scrounge. I'm not flying while building but that's ok for me. If you are in a hurry than building is likely not for you. I have every step posted on my site if you want to get a look at what a scratch build entails. Did I say you really need to like building????
Marty57
 
Just wanting or liking to build isn't nearly important as being really, really good at building. If you're not a dedicated, meticulous, patient, and skilled craftsman, you're likely to end up with something you wouldn't want to fly and can't sell.

Just recovering a flying aircraft is a pretty big deal for someone with no experience. Building the whole thing from scratch is a HUGE undertaking!!!
 
I agree with dedicated and patient. Meticulous, maybe? Skilled craftsman, I don't consider myself one of those. I am a regular guy who built model airplanes. I was willing to learn new skills, like welding, metal fabrication and was largely self taught. I also wanted an airplane I built myself and could maintain myself. If you want it bad mostly anyone can do it. I also didn't go into the project with "how much can I sell this for when I am done?". This was purely for personal satisfaction and achievement.
 
Ours is gonna end up in the $20's. Plans built, Univair ribs and spar, and a lot of scrounging. I think if you enjoy building and don't rush you'll end up with a good product. (and an interesting reject pile)
 
So the moral of the story...

Build only if you love to build.

I have a tough time building one offs because I always overthink the manufacturing process on how to make multiples.
 
(and an interesting reject pile)

Yes, you can't let the reject pile bother you. Patience, patience. Had a friend stop by to build some little part. He got totally frustrated because he had to build it twice. Asked him why he thought he was so good. Told him to go look in my reject box, look at all the parts that have three that are almost alike. I'd be happy to get it right on the second one.

Dave
 
What's the impact of using a set of factory wings on a cub where you scratch built everything else? Would the FAA totally frown on it?

Here is an old discussion of using "certified" parts. Use at your own risk!
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?39205-Experimental-Pacers&p=481975#post481975
But find appendix 8 and make your own determination. If I remember right a set of factory "salvage" main wings cost you 50+ points out of the 140 total or so it takes to build a cub. You even lose all the covering of the wings. Everything in the "main wings" section. That's a big lose for something you can make without the skill of welding. You need to score about 71 points to be in the 51% needed so if you burn 50 on the wings you only have 21 left for other either salvage or factory built parts. Remember you lose the whole section using salvaged parts (for some reason you lose only the exact construction part points for "new" factory parts, not the whole section. ie you can use new Dakota ribs and you only lose the ribs points not the whole wing) so in this case you lose "main wings" section or 50 points with a salvage wing or even if you use just the salvage wing ribs. Starting with a factory fuselage cost you 19 points from the "fuselage" section, a much better deal leaving some "certified " points available for engine mount, nose, gear, fuel tanks etc. IMHO "Q"
 
I have attached a blank FAA form 8000-38 that was used for my certification. Each line item is marked "X" in appropiate column. They then add up the "X's" on each column and divide by the total items (154 in this form) to get the percentage of each. I show the wing worth ~10% or so (not including flaps or ailerons).

View attachment 8000-38.zip
 

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Also can't you mark out those items on the checklist that don't apply to your project to lower the total
number of possible points?
 
I built one from scratch and have all the numbers. Mine was $155,000 when I built it has gotten close to $180,000 with subsequent upgrades. I paid for the labor. I can give you a detailed breakdown if you want.
 
This thread got me thinking so I pulled out the old numbers. I cannot find the final reconciliation. My book value is a lot higher but it includes some expenses that probably don't belong in a discussion like this. I have spent a bunch more on the plane since it was finished, adding bush wheels, skis, a Borer prop, lights and many other things that add up to a shocking amount.

I started with a budget of $130,000 to build a new certified Super Cub, starting with a wrecked one. Please don't ask me what I have in that. My project included a new airframe, wings, covering, all new wiring and hardware. Everything in the plane was either new or totally re-manufactured. This budget included $45,000 of labor for the job. My project ended up costing about $155,000 (before the subsequent modifications). The project was scheduled to take one year. It took nearly two. My builder pretty much honored his cost estimate, though there was some strain in our relationship along the way. We both agreed that this type of job is better done in a production shop that is set up for it like Cub Crafters or Dan's.

Obviously, it would be a lot cheaper if you did it all yourself but that is not an option for most of us. I marvel at the amount of custom fabrication that went into it. The guy who built mine had a full machine shop and really loved the work. The only thing that ever got between us was the budget and the calendar. I borrowed some of the money (I am not including any interest expense in my numbers) and had a partner so I need to get it done.

I will never recover the cost that I have in the plane but I would not trade the experience for anything. I was able to work on it quite a bit, though I could not have taken this on on my own in a million years. I know the plane very intimately and ended up with exactly what I wanted. The reason to do this is not to save money but because you really want to do it. We owned another plane at the time and I was flying it a lot on business. If that had not been the case, I would have had a hard time going so long without a plane.
 
Also can't you mark out those items on the checklist that don't apply to your project to lower the total
number of possible points?
Yes in talking to a DAR that is the info I got. My figure of 140 points total was my arbitrary impression of totaling up the points that I think would apply to a supercub clone. The DAR may think differently. Of whatever number of points applies to your project you need to get 51% "amateur" built. You don't need to do them yourself but the labor has to be voluntary. Some day a bunch of SC.org'ers will get together and do a coop to build a bunch of cubs. there are the "wing" men (maybe three guy's who live near each other,two crank out parts and the other "jigs" and assembles?), one guy the "tail" (I want to be the tail, it's easy), "controls" etc. Truck/trailer relay around the country to distribute parts. Buy 10+ standard new fuselages (bulk buy at ten thousand apiece). Bet one of the suppliers would do it. Bulk buy ribs, wheels brakes, etc.) Eli Whitney figured all that out a hundred years ago. Everyone does their own cover (attend a Stewarts seminar by JG), assembly, rigging, engine etc. Some bank would have to hold the escrow for each part to avoid difficulty's with non-performance. No mods till you get the parts (maybe the safety mods to the fuse could be agreed on. Now I'll go out on a limb here: 40K without engine. Maybe 50k. You have new cub and you hang your own used/new P&W or Rotax (just joking) on the front with whatever prop you want? Go ahead and shoot holes. Blank wing spars cost under 1000$ (total for four) delivered to me. I have just started on cutting and drilling but once you have done one (hopefully correctly) the rest should take way less time with each on getting faster.
 
NimpoCub stated "SuperCubs are NOT worth what they sell for, but the demand is what puts the price up there. Same as real estate, the same house in different place will make a huge difference. It's not what it "is", it's what folks are willing to pay."

I don't agree. If you build a supercub from scratch, using certified parts, not only will it cost you more than you could buy one for, you will have invested thousands of hours of labor.

I also take issue with Skywagon8a's claim that his "new" supercub on floats will come in at $70K. "New" means NEW, not scrounged salvage, rebuilt, or repaired. Just a new firewall forward with a NEW prop, a NEW 180 hp engine, NEW mount, NEW baffles, NEW cowlings, NEW exhaust, and NEW accessories is going to cost you $40-50K. NEW floats are 18 to 28K. A NEW fuselage with doors, tail feathers, landing gear, and little pieces/parts is 25K - 30K. NEW wings, flaps, ailerons another 20K. Covering materials at least 3K. A NEW panel with NEW instruments is a minimum of 2 K.

Add it up. A NEW supercub is going to have at least 120K in NEW parts unless you buy the NEW parts from a distressed seller. Even with a low shop rate of $40/hr. and a fast build time of 1000 hrs., you can add another 40K on to that. 150 to 200K for a NEW Supercub isn't more than its worth, it simply what it cost.
 
I think we are mixing up two different issues. With regard to building a Cub from new certified parts you will not be able to certify that Cub as experimental amateur built because you didn't fabricate the parts your self; meeting the 51% rule would be very difficult. Using all new certified parts is more a kin to "rebuilding" a wreck where you are essentially using the paperwork to "repair" an existing Cub. In that case the Cub would retain the total hours as indicated in the log book so not a "new" Cub either. The two different issues here are building a "Certified Cub " from new parts or building an "Experimental Amateur Built" Cub; two totally different Cubs in the eyes of the FAA and likely retail. For me the very last thing I am thinking about is retail. Many builders of EAB won't even sell a complete aircraft for fear of liability as the "manufacturer" of the aircraft. Many will part ou or sell without engine or air worthiness certificate to try and shield them from liability. Getting back to the original post's question about cost it is fair to say that a EAB Cub can be build somewhere between $25-$70K depending on if you build 95% your self (my case) or build 51% and buy all the other parts. Restoring a certified Cub with all new parts (not EAB) could likely cost over $100K. This is what I find so exciting about Cubs. Unlike the newer RV aircraft where you have to buy the kits with Cubs you can do as much or as little as you like. I hope this makes some sense; these are just my opinions and observations over the past 5 years building my 2+2. Time to go build!
Marty57
 
Paul, firewall back, everything was brand new, scratch built on my Cub except my altimeter and the Scott 3200. I'll give you credit for those. My engine was 300TTSN, then overhauled to 0SMOH, all accessories yellow tagged or brand new, worked with my A&P friend and is signed off in logbook. Ok, not brand new but if sold on open market how much cheaper than brand new, $2-4K? So yes, you can build a brand new scratch built 180hp Super Cub for under, let's say $50K? The amphibs I am working on will come in under $15K for sure. Those will be brand new too.
 
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I guess I was comparing apples to oranges. The cost of NEW amateur built parts is a lot less than NEW store bought parts. I can make things out of erector set but I can't make the parts in the set. I guess that's the difference, you yourself can do both.
 
I also take issue with Skywagon8a's claim that his "new" supercub on floats will come in at $70K. "New" means NEW, not scrounged salvage, rebuilt, or repaired. Just a new firewall forward with a NEW prop, a NEW 180 hp engine, NEW mount, NEW baffles, NEW cowlings, NEW exhaust, and NEW accessories is going to cost you $40-50K. NEW floats are 18 to 28K. A NEW fuselage with doors, tail feathers, landing gear, and little pieces/parts is 25K - 30K. NEW wings, flaps, ailerons another 20K. Covering materials at least 3K. A NEW panel with NEW instruments is a minimum of 2 K.

Paul please reread my above post. I said out of pocket expense. Yes the engine is not new. It is a IO-360 with 130TT which has been pickled. I paid $5000 for it a while ago. The floats I bought new and picked up at EDO's factory for $3100. I have been keeping close track of my outlay and it is currently just under $70,000 including a new GPS and $5500 prop. There will be minimal further expense from this point. The original question was about building from scratch. My airframe was a welded up kit. I agree with Bugs66's number of around $50k for scratch built without floats. My labor at this point is just under 1000 hours. It will take some more hours to scratch build the baffles and assemble the whole plane.
 
Fuselage tubing -$4K
D&E wing kit- $7K
Fabric and paint - around $3K
Interior "stuff" (instruments,floorboards,panel)- around $5K
Decent half-time O-320 - $6-10K

That will bring me too a ball park $30,000 to get airborne. Floats, big tires, etc. can come later as I can afford them
 
Wronghand,
You forgot wheels, breaks and landing gear. You can scrounge most of it. I got a good extra set of Cleavland and brakes I need to sell one of these days. You can likely build the fuselage for about $2500 so you are high there. Paint and fabric will be more like $5K; I'm figuring on that amount anyway. Don't forget fuel system but you can build that also. So, yeah I think $30K to $35K is do-able if you like to build and are a good scrounger. Now you just have to get started.
Marty57
 
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