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Bill Rusk
08-05-2011, 08:22 PM
Folks

This thread will be about my build up of a Supercub Kit produced by Jay DeRosier of Javron, thus a Javron Cub. http://javroninc.com/


INDEX

Page 1
Post#1- List of common Supercub Mods
#22 - Strut Weights - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=510044&viewfull=1#post510044

Page 2
#44 - Fuselage weights - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=510275&viewfull=1#post510275
#50 - Magneto Weights - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=511093&viewfull=1#post511093
#59 - Brodhead Fly-in - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=511237&viewfull=1#post511237
#60-75 - Powdercoat discussion - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=511261&viewfull=1#post511261
#76 - Drilled Brake Roters - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=512137&viewfull=1#post512137

Page 3
#100 - Wing parts weights (ribs, etc) - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=513621&viewfull=1#post513621
#104 - Engine Selection Logic, Interior Panel Weights - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=523216&viewfull=1#post523216
#116 - Wing Selection Criteria - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=523357&viewfull=1#post523357
#120 - Ztron Labs Master Relay - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=523391&viewfull=1#post523391

Page 4
#124 - Pmag Blast Tubes - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=523517&viewfull=1#post523517
#152 - Javron Review and "Bringing it home" - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=525326&viewfull=1#post525326
#154 - Modifications with Pictures and explanations - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=525332&viewfull=1#post525332
#155 - Weight Savings Ideas and List - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=525333&viewfull=1#post525333

Page 5
#162 - Common Mods with Pictures - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=525504&viewfull=1#post525504
#193 - Weight info for Tail Surfaces - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=525958&viewfull=1#post525958

Page 6
#211 - Interior Panel Weights - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=526107&viewfull=1#post526107
#231 - Stringer Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=529369&viewfull=1#post529369
#240 - Tail Hinge Bushing Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=529458&viewfull=1#post529458

Page 7
#241 - Engine Weight Data - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=529459&viewfull=1#post529459
#248 - Nutplate Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=530568&viewfull=1#post530568
#249 - Nutplate install - Bootcowl - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=530575&viewfull=1#post530575
#263 - Nutplate install - Skylight - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=531061&viewfull=1#post531061
#265 - Composite Floorboards - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=531066&viewfull=1#post531066
#272 - ELT Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=531164&viewfull=1#post531164

Page 8
#288 - Flywheels - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=532656&viewfull=1#post532656
#297 - Floorboards, Nutplates - Rudder Pedal Saddles - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=533305&viewfull=1#post533305
#299 - Electric Trim - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=537148&viewfull=1#post537148
#306 - Rivet info, Bootcowl Fabrication - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=538798&viewfull=1#post538798
#318 - Bootcowl Pictures By Steve Pierce - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=538968&viewfull=1#post538968
#320 - Electric Trim, Windshield Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=540045&viewfull=1#post540045

Page 9
#321 - Windshield Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=540049&viewfull=1#post540049
#323 - Torque Tube Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=540052&viewfull=1#post540052
#329 - Hatz Biplane, Warner Engine - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=540445&viewfull=1#post540445
#334 - Removal of fixed left side window - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=540844&viewfull=1#post540844
#335 - Weight Savings Ideas - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=540847&viewfull=1#post540847
#340 - Hatz - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=541285&viewfull=1#post541285
#352 - Seats (also more info in post 358 - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=542424&viewfull=1#post542424
#355 - Fuel Lines and Fuel Valve - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=542437&viewfull=1#post542437

Page 10
#370 - Avionics Selection Logic - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=544306&viewfull=1#post544306
#385 - Javron Visit, Instrument Panel - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=550863&viewfull=1#post550863
#386 - Wing Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=550866&viewfull=1#post550866
#391 - Garmin 796 Panel Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=551601&viewfull=1#post551601

Page 11
#405 - Fuel Line Routing - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=556304&viewfull=1#post556304
#406 - Interior Panels - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=556305&viewfull=1#post556305
#429 - Tool and Tripod info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=558185&viewfull=1#post558185
#434 - Stringer Weights - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=558202&viewfull=1#post558202

Page 12
#443 - Interior Panels - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub/page12
#456 - Bootcowl Fabrication - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=560236&viewfull=1#post560236
#475 - Interior Panels - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=560502&viewfull=1#post560502

Page 13
#486 - Interior Panels - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=561390&viewfull=1#post561390
#501 - Cargo Tiedown Rings - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=567561&viewfull=1#post567561
#508 - Rudder Pedal Install, Battery Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=568669&viewfull=1#post568669
#514 - Rear Seat (Redone see post 1258 - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=569231&viewfull=1#post569231
#516 - Catto Prop, Seat Belts - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=569254&viewfull=1#post569254

Page 14
#xxx - Rear Seat info - Ideas - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub/page14
#550 -Throttle Rod, Underseat box, Seat Belt info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=571186&viewfull=1#post571186
#551 - Start of Auto Pilot Discussion - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=571202&viewfull=1#post571202

Page 15
#562 - Auto Pilot Choice/logic - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=572618&viewfull=1#post572618
#570 - Bootcowl Fabrication - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=573364&viewfull=1#post573364
#572 - Cowl Fabrication - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=573367&viewfull=1#post573367
#591 - Elevator and Rudder Cable Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=573367&viewfull=1#post573367
#597 - Primer and Paint Discussion - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=573367&viewfull=1#post573367

Page 16
#604 - Fabric Headliner - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=575044&viewfull=1#post575044
#605 - Cowl Door Latches - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=575204&viewfull=1#post575204
#611 - Water Rudder, Fuel Pod Tabs - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=575496&viewfull=1#post575496
#613 - Cowl Fabrication - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=575649&viewfull=1#post575649
#616 - Carb Airbox Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=575968&viewfull=1#post575968

Page 17
#648 - Wing Root Interior Panels - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=578460&viewfull=1#post578460
#651 - Covering Systems Info, Seat Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=580725&viewfull=1#post580725
#656 - Paint Scheme Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=580877&viewfull=1#post580877

Page 18
#696 - Stewarts Covering Tips - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=582516&viewfull=1#post582516
#702 - Catto Prop Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=582789&viewfull=1#post582789
#709 - Boundary Waters Canoe Trip - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=583269&viewfull=1#post583269
#719 - Catto Prop Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=583547&viewfull=1#post583547

Page 19
#730 - Interior Panel Photos & Weights - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=584237&viewfull=1#post584237
#741 - Rib Stitching Info and Video link - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=585280&viewfull=1#post585280

Page 20
#772 - Fabric Weights - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=586827&viewfull=1#post586827
#785 - Fabric Headliner - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=588347&viewfull=1#post588347
#791 - Bead Roller Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=588991&viewfull=1#post588991
#799 - Rib Weights - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=589091&viewfull=1#post589091

Page 21
#817 - Fuel Pod and Fuel Tank Size thoughts - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=593192&viewfull=1#post593192
#833 - Electrical Loads Discussion - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=593633&viewfull=1#post593633

Page 22
#847 - Fuselage Covering Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=594930&viewfull=1#post594930
#866 - Fabric Glue Info and Video Link - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=595458&viewfull=1#post595458
#873 - Fuselage Tapes/Reinforcements - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=595558&viewfull=1#post595558

Page 23
#883 - Fuselage Tapes/Reinforcements - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=595987&viewfull=1#post595987
#886 - Vert Stab (fin) Offset Discussion - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=596149&viewfull=1#post596149
#909 - Paint Booth Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=597132&viewfull=1#post597132

Page 24
#924 - Javron Wing Pictures - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=597693&viewfull=1#post597693
#927 - Javron Tank Pictures - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=597847&viewfull=1#post597847
#936 - Capacitive Fuel Gauges - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=597941&viewfull=1#post597941
#940 - Wing Weights - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=597966&viewfull=1#post597966
#957 - Wing Washout - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=598175&viewfull=1#post598175
#959 - Carbon Fiber Leading Edge - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=598237&viewfull=1#post598237

Page 25
#962 - Carbon Fiber Leading Edge - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=598283&viewfull=1#post598283
#968 - Wingtip Light Mount Fabrication - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=598590&viewfull=1#post598590
#969 - Wiring Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=598785&viewfull=1#post598785
#976 - Stress Riser Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=598850&viewfull=1#post598850
#989 - CG Calculation info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=598900&viewfull=1#post598900
#995 - Pitot Line info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=598912&viewfull=1#post598912
#996 - Drill jig for Floating Nuts - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=599055&viewfull=1#post599055

Page 26
#1001 - Vetterman Cub w/ Oratex - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=599120&viewfull=1#post599120
#1017 - Paint Scheme Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=599605&viewfull=1#post599605

Page 27
#1049 - Carbon Fiber Leading Edge Failure - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=600517&viewfull=1#post600517
#1070 - New Leading Edge Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=601288&viewfull=1#post601288
#1074 - Wing Weight Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=601527&viewfull=1#post601527

Page 28
#1100 - Wing Tapes/Reinforcements - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=602394&viewfull=1#post602394
#1120 - Wiring Diagram for Electric Trim - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=604598&viewfull=1#post604598

Page 29
#1135 - Wipline 2100A Floats - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=605501&viewfull=1#post605501
#1152 - Photos of Carbon Cub Electric Trim - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=606061&viewfull=1#post606061
#1156 - Air Line Fittings - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=606437&viewfull=1#post606437
#1157 - Video Link Painting Tail Feathers - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=606572&viewfull=1#post606572
#1158 - Tail Weights of Primer, Paint Etc - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=606591&viewfull=1#post606591

Page 30
#1161 - Paint Weight Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=606719&viewfull=1#post606719
#1187 - Paint Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=607224&viewfull=1#post607224
#1191 - Fuselage Paint Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=607467&viewfull=1#post607467
#1191 - Paint Booth Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=609470&viewfull=1#post609470

Page 31
#1205 - Paint and Weight info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=610088&viewfull=1#post610088
#1209 - Paint Taping - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=610478&viewfull=1#post610478
#1225 - Baggage Door Fabrication - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=611597&viewfull=1#post611597
#1228 - Baggage door and Better Rear Seat Design - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=612730&viewfull=1#post612730

Page 32
#1241 - Javron Company Update (Wing and Aileron info) - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=614638&viewfull=1#post614638
#1244 - Torque Tube Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=614729&viewfull=1#post614729
#1255 - Final Rear Seat Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=615857&viewfull=1#post615857
#1265 - Javron Aluminum Struts - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=616553&viewfull=1#post616553
#1269 - Air Tech Vs Stewarts Glue - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=617064&viewfull=1#post617064

Page 33
#1282 - Weight Data - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=617883&viewfull=1#post617883
#1283 - Cowl Door Brace Rods - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=618091&viewfull=1#post618091
#1287 - Preliminary Empty Weight Bet - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=618769&viewfull=1#post618769


Page 34
#1325 - Fuel Flow Transducer and Battery Box - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=620203&viewfull=1#post620203
#1343 - Wheels, Brakes, Oil Cooler, Window Channel - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=623484&viewfull=1#post623484
#1358 - Nutplates and access/inspection covers - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=623937&viewfull=1#post623937

Page 35
#1361 - Gas Springs for shooter windows - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=623940&viewfull=1#post623940
#1376 - ELT Antenna Mounting - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=625418&viewfull=1#post625418
#1383 - Wing Root Fairings and Flap Gap Seals - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=626086&viewfull=1#post626086
#1384 - Turnbuckles - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=626088&viewfull=1#post626088
#1392 - Wing Root Fairings - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=626323&viewfull=1#post626323

Page 36
#1401 - Fuel Tank covers - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=627114&viewfull=1#post627114
#1410 - Flap Gap Fairing/Seal - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=627251&viewfull=1#post627251
#1410 - Instrument Panel Subpanel - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=627251&viewfull=1#post627251
#1411 - Princeton Fuel Probes - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=627254&viewfull=1#post627254
#1417 - Fuel Sight Gauge - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=627316&viewfull=1#post627316
#1431 - Shopping List (stuff you will need to build your Cub) - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=627604&viewfull=1#post627604
#1433 - Fuel Cap discussion - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=627604&viewfull=1#post627604


Page 37
#1441 - Bottom Cowl Fabrication - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=627604&viewfull=1#post627604
#1464 - Aircraft Registration Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=627957&viewfull=1#post627957
#1472 - More Lower Cowl Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=628124&viewfull=1#post628124
#1477 - Bolt In Lead for Ballast - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=629022&viewfull=1#post629022


Page 38
#1481 - Decals - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=629204&viewfull=1#post629204
#1489 - Brake line info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=629622&viewfull=1#post629622
#1489 - Cabin Air Box modification - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=629622&viewfull=1#post629622
#1489 - Lowered Engine Mount Issues - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=629622&viewfull=1#post629622
#1510 - Actual Final Weight - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=629730&viewfull=1#post629730
(Cg and Datum discussion in here as well)


Page 39
#1538 - Excellent Post on floats and Stability - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=629849&viewfull=1#post629849
#1558 - Baffling and Wire pass throughs - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=630045&viewfull=1#post630045


Page 40
#1569 - Fuel Valve Selector Handle Discussion - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=630107&viewfull=1#post630107

Page 41
#1630 - Side Cutters, Zip Ties, and how to make hoses - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=630425&viewfull=1#post630425
#1640 - First Run Video - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=630460&viewfull=1#post630460

Page 42
#1648 - First Flight and Start of Window discussion - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=630639&viewfull=1#post630639
#1673 - Start of Master Relay/Starter Relay wiring Diagram Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=631104&viewfull=1#post631104

Page 43
#1685 - Baffling Mod to Reduce #3 CHT - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=631215&viewfull=1#post631215
#1686 - Registration Info, W&B Form and Program Letter info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=631217&viewfull=1#post631217
#1694 - Side Window Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=631523&viewfull=1#post631523
#1694 - PMag, CHT and Timing info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=631523&viewfull=1#post631523
#1700 - Johnson Creek Trip Report and Pictures - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=631523&viewfull=1#post631523
#1711 - Electrical Amp Draw Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=632948&viewfull=1#post632948

Page 44
#1725 - Outside Door Latch - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=634762&viewfull=1#post634762
#1728 - Magnesium Sump - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=637213&viewfull=1#post637213
#1728 - Amphib Float Pump info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=637213&viewfull=1#post637213
#1728 - Hoist Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=637213&viewfull=1#post637213
#1741 Float Install Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=638200&viewfull=1#post638200
#1753 - Float W&B - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=638200&viewfull=1#post638200

Page 45
#1761 - Manual Float Pump Install - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=638853&viewfull=1#post638853
#1765 - Float Pump Reservoir - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=639118&viewfull=1#post639118
#1770 - More Pump Install Notes - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=639214&viewfull=1#post639214
#1793 - Float W&B Info - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=639574&viewfull=1#post639574

Page 46
#1805 - Diode Part #'s - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=640156&viewfull=1#post640156
#1811 - Brad Thornberg Pictures/Trip to Brainerd - http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=641030&viewfull=1#post641030




We will start with a stock Piper PA-18 fuselage produced from Piper drawings. From that base I will be asking Jay to make the following modifications....
( I included some notes on the mods for the folks here that may not be familiar with all this stuff )






1. Reverse dog leg - makes it easier to get stuff in the extended baggage area - weight penalty zero


2. Metal Belly Tabs - tabs on last 4 feet of fuselage to attach a metal belly pan - access improved and easier to wash out fuselage - weight penalty will be tabs, hardware, and .020 AL pan itself


3. Removable rear crossbar - makes loading larger items in baggage easier - weight penalty will be a small section of tubing (2" or so) and hardware


4. Tie Downs in Cargo area - to keep loads from shifting - weight would be the tabs


5. Bushing the tailwheel attach tube - keeps the tubing from collapsing - weight penalty will depend on tubing size increase and bushing.


6. Extended cargo area - room to carry more stuff - weight penalty will depend on several factors. I plan to use the lower longerons rather than build the shelf. This will necessitate running the elevator cables under the fuselage.


7. Float fittings (FWD)


8. Float fittings (AFT) - rather than weld on the external fittings I used a flush set up on my last build that I think worked well and added little if any weight. Here is a link to some photos and a description. http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?22553-Building-a-Smith-Cub/page4&highlight=building+smith+bill (you will have to scroll past the electric trim section).


9. Lift rings for floats - these can be welded in or they could be left out and the brackets bolted to the spars as necessary. There are advantages to each. The spar brackets would only be added if someone went to floats so perhaps a few ounces lighter for someone who is not planning on floats but that then requires cutting into the wing fairing and they are not easy to take on and off so they tend to be left on year round. With the weld in ones the holes in the skylight can be plugged easily and the eyebolts are easy to remove or install when going to or from floats.


10. Extra tail lift handle - Easy to weigh a piece of tubing to get the weight. The handle needs to be a little larger than factory so you can get a gloved hand in there and the extra handle is useful for ski flying where it is necessary to manually move the tail around. If there is only one handle there is a tendency to push on the side of the fuselage, often using the shoulder, which then bends the upper turtle deck stringers. Thus with the extra handle you can pull on the fuselage rather than push.


11. Tabs for Amphib float set up. - They should be located here ..............
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=638470&viewfull=1#post638470
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=649847&viewfull=1#post649847
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub&p=654937&viewfull=1#post654937

Look at all three links to get the info you need


12. Firewall Brace tubes - the extra tubing effectively makes an X brace on both sides of the fuselage at the firewall. Cubs are known to collapse the engine in a hard landing/crash often crushing the pilots ankles and possibly trapping them in the wreckage. The extra tube is easily weighed so we could determine the weight penalty here. I have seen this mod without tying the tubes together. That would significantly reduce the effectiveness of this mod. Much better to weld the tubes together at the X even though it would require a small (1/2") interconnecting brace of some type. This mod does interfere with the map pocket.


13. Overhead X brace - Pretty standard now. Keeps the wing attach area from caving in during a crash causing head injuries. The original tubing was a 3' beam. By welding in the X the beam is now only about 18" now so we might be able to reduce the tubing size, or thickness, or both to save weight. Also makes it easy to put in the cross tube for the shoulder harness.


14. Extended gear - most common is 3" which is what I will get. Some are also going to 3X3 gear which is 3 inch extended and the axle is moved forward 3 inches as well. This makes the tail heavier (bad for ski flying) but it allows more aggressive braking without standing the plane on its nose.


15. Seat belt attach welded in to the floor tubes rather than being attached to the seat.


16. Shoulder harness attach fittings welded in.


17 Flap handle moved outboard - I like to take credit for this one but the reality is someone else probably thought of this before I did. I think all the experimental airframes are pretty much doing this now. No weight penalty and helps with the knee interference issue in a crosswind.


18. Bushing the landing gear for the long step


19. No tabs for the BLR fins. (Some folks are using the BLR set of Vortex Generators. These require tabs for the metal fin attached just forward of the horizontal stabilizers. The BLR system and the Micro VG's seem to be about equal in effectiveness with the edge going to the Micros. The downside to the BLR system is that big metal fins on the side of the fuselage. It REALLY gets in the way when moving the airplane around by the tail lifting handles when on skis, thus I am not a big BLR fan. I think the only ones using this system are Cub Crafters).


20. Longer seat attach fittings for rear legs of front seat. This will get the bolt up high enough so it does not conflict with the floorboard making it hard to get the front seat out.


21. ELT antennae mount


22. Tail "X" brace or "H" brace. Strengthens tail area for ski and off road work.

23. Third seat/baggage area reinforcement. I think some of the reinforcement tubes may be overkill in terms of size and thickness so I will work with Jay to see if we can go smaller and still retain the strength.

24. Reinforce/brace outside rib of Horiz stabs to keep the fabric from warping it. Also move it 1/2" closer to fuselage to gap seal this area.

25. Extend the arm on the bottom of the stick by 1" where the aileron cables attach. Gives more aileron throw to the stick.

26. Make the front seat back folding and set the angle at 80 degrees Vs the factory 90 degree seat. No one sits bolt upright. Makes the seat much more comfortable but you have to be more careful with rear stick interference.

27. Control lock brackets welded to front seat, and on front stick base. (This is the "V" shaped lock that hooks into a bushing on the front stick)

28. Tail stinger light mount on rudder.

29. Remove the false cowls (behind the boot cowl). Weld the ginger bread accordingly. Thus fabric will go all the way to the boot cowl.

30. Upper and lower baggage doors.

31. No brackets for the manual trim system except for the electric motor under the jackscrew.

32. Bungee gear set up. Saves 3 pounds over the die spring set up.




I have probably neglected a few things. I am open to inputs. What am I not thinking of?

( and so it begins)


Bill

kevin
08-05-2011, 09:03 PM
Sounds exciting. I'm not really familiar with this kit and hadn't heard about it before you started your search for prospective kits to build. It sounds like you are going in the right direction. I'm sure this will be a very nice kit for you.

You really didn't mention too much about the wings. Are you planning on stock length flaps, inboard to the frame, extended cord, etc? Stock bows or square tips?

Look forward to watching it come together.

Kevin G.

Bobby Breeden
08-05-2011, 10:20 PM
Bill,

Its very good to hear that you are moving that much closer to getting your new Cub under way. I have a few questions that may not have been mentioned in your post.

From the sounds of it, it seems like you will be building up a cub to be as light and as durable as possible. Does this mean 0-320/340? or 360/375? I really like the concept of a super light plane with an ample amount of power. I have heard of 320's being "massaged" up to 200 hp...

Regarding the wings, Round tip? Square tip? Extended flaps? I remember the switch from BLRs to Micros and I really thought the latter worked deeper and longer to prevent a stall.

Carbon Fiber: Will you be using any carbon fiber in the Cub? Leading edge, bows, cowling, tank covers, floorboards, etc.

Titanium Firewall?

Tail Feathers: 3" extended or stock? Stock should be plenty...

Brakes: the Calumet Cub Heel Brakes are fantastic. They had enough pressure to lock-up 35s any day of the week.

Tires: Assuming you will not always be on floats, what tires do you think you will use?

Prop: Those Catto props are really light and pull great. Also spin up quite well and cruise faster than Borer equivalent.

Fuselage: Will you be moving the engine in any way? backwards, forwards, up down? And last but not least, Wing Incidence. Have you decided to change it from stock? If you do so, be sure to match the tail to avoid trim complications.

The big list you mentioned above has some FANTASTIC changes and ideas in it! I cant wait to see the progress on your new machine. I know you have put a lot of research into this so I am positive you will absolutely love your kit pick.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Bobby Breeden

Iflylower
08-05-2011, 10:42 PM
Great to see you started friend! I saw a guy with a Javron shirt on his cell phone at Oshkosh. I've ordered parts from him a few times and talked on the phone a few times. Great guy. I was sure it was Jay, I got busy looking at a booth and he was gone. Sorry I missed him.

I like your list, I'm pm-ing you another secret sauce addition to that frame.

In my build, I'd give a lot to have a carbon fiber round tip on the wings. There is so much tomfoolery on the piper round tips. It'd be a huge time saver. Something bolt on like cc's, if not theirs.

Iflylower
08-05-2011, 10:51 PM
http://tapatalk.com/mu/4b402e73-baa5-030c.jpg
Scott Berry's in AK.

Thought of another...

Not just tie downs in cargo aera, but little tabs that could hook a net from the front of the rear seat up to the top of the crossbar, right in front of the flap pulleys. Saw it up at the airmens show in AK, and never got it done on my frame. Sad. Also, cc uses tabs to hold a little net against the roof for charts and hats n such. Nice.

mike mcs repair
08-05-2011, 10:58 PM
my thoughts........



.....

9. Lift rings for floats - these can be welded in or they could be left out and the brackets bolted to the spars as necessary. There are advantages to each. The spar brackets would only be added if someone went to floats so perhaps a few ounces lighter for someone who is not planning on floats but that then requires cutting into the wing fairing and they are not easy to take on and off so they tend to be left on year round. With the weld in ones the holes in the skylight can be plugged easily and the eyebolts are easy to remove or install when going to or from floats.

would think you want standard location like atlee's ones so most lift bars will fit?

10. Extra tail lift handle - Easy to weigh a piece of tubing to get the weight. T

have you considered just putting them on upper longerons instead, we call them "old man" handles, MUCH better force for pushing....
......

20. Longer seat attach fittings for rear legs of front seat. This will get the bolt up high enough so it does not conflict with the floorboard making it hard to get the front seat out.

I like that!
.....

24. Reinforce/brace outside rib of Horiz stabs to keep the fabric from warping it. Also move it 1/2" closer to fuselage to gap seal this area.

I don't think you have a 1/2 ON the stabs to fix that, I think that will need to be done to(shorten) the tourqe tube mounts on fuselage

25. Extend the arm on the bottom of the stick by 1" where the aileron cables attach. Gives more aileron throw to the stick.

can you do that without hitting knees????????


Bill

NimpoCub
08-05-2011, 11:19 PM
Bill, good on ya!
Definitely inboard the flaps. makes a difference.
I was advised that extending the ailerons didn't make "much" diff, and lots'a work to add a hanger/hinge. Dunno personally tho.
I did most of what you listed, and WISH I had moved the flap handle some. Didn't think/read about that when I rebuilt.
Make some sort of gizmo to be able to close the door window from outside.
Windscreen defroster. Rear seat heat? Soundproofing under floor & inside boot cowls. AeroSport (Bart massaged) engine.
Tabs for a belly pod. DW in Ore. has 3x3 extended gear fer sale. Do a nice job, I'll be lookin' someday. :)

fobjob
08-06-2011, 02:28 AM
A tube from the bottom of the firewall to the top front door frame on both sides to prevent the engine from tucking under in a crash and crushing your legs....

skywagon8a
08-06-2011, 05:44 AM
Mike,
25. Extend the arm on the bottom of the stick by 1" where the aileron cables attach. Gives more aileron throw to the stick.
can you do that without hitting knees????????

I think that you misunderstood. Extending the arm on the bottom of the stick will move the cable further. The stick throw will not change.

Bill,
My Backcountry fuselage was built by Javron.
The plate which is mounted under the extended baggage floor on which the bulkhead "T" fittings attach for the fuel line drain points, was installed upside down against the fabric. It was impossible to install the "T" fittings and connect the fuel lines without an extension "Rube Goldberg" being added between the plate and the "T". The plate needs to be welded to the top surface of the tubing. This will allow a straight run of the fuel lines without any fancy plumbing.

The tubing behind my firewall is in the form of an "X" instead of Piper's upside down "V". This prevented me from using a constant speed prop had I wished. The governor would have conflicted with the tubing. I do not know why this was done. It was not anything that I ordered. It certainly does strengthen the engine installation.

fobjob
08-06-2011, 09:14 AM
Tempdoug, you're right, my bad; not enough coffee...

mike mcs repair
08-06-2011, 09:58 AM
Mike,
25. Extend the arm on the bottom of the stick by 1" where the aileron cables attach. Gives more aileron throw to the stick.
can you do that without hitting knees????????

I think that you misunderstood. Extending the arm on the bottom of the stick will move the cable further. The stick throw will not change.
.....

ya my dyslexia in action :-)

Cub junkie
08-06-2011, 10:12 AM
This is the beginning of what I predict one of the longest running threads on SC.org. Looking forward to it.

Nocub
08-06-2011, 10:47 AM
This is the beginning of what I predict one of the longest running threads on SC.org. Looking forward to it.

Agreed. I'm looking forward to this build and second the question of engine type?

Bill Rusk
08-06-2011, 04:11 PM
Kevin.... The wings will be fairly close to stock, round tip, probably 18gal tanks, etc. Still working on that part.

Bob Breeden.... Folks I have had several long and very informative visits with Bob. He is very sharp and does his homework. It will be fun to see what his next build up looks like as well. But, that said, I will try to hit some of his questions

Engine.... still undecided. Had a long and excellent visit with Bart at Oshkosh. I will talk to Ken at Lycon and probably Monty as well. Leaning toward 0-360 but ?????

Planning Micro VG's on wing, pretty stock wing, possibly Keller flaps, and carbon fiber where it makes sense.

Titanium firewall ...yes. Atlee is predrilled and saves 2 pounds

Standard tail, Dakota Cub Brakes (already have) 31" tires (already have) Catto prop (as before I liked it)

I may make some adjustments to the motor mount. That will depend somewhat on the engine selection. Bob offered a lot of insight into this area.

Cal thanks for the PM. Yes I am looking into a CF wingtip bow with the light mount molded in to save time, weight, and as you say tomfoolery. I agree.

Mike excellent inputs, thank you. I will have to look at the stabs again to confirm the set up. It was that way on my Smithcub and I liked it. The torque tube extension just gives more aileron travel with less stick travel and helps with the knee issue.

Pete Thank you for that heads up. I will make sure it is on top.

Right now most of my focus is on the fuselage as Jay is about ready to start cutting metal so I am trying to stay one step ahead of him and I want to make sure I get all my changes right the first time. Thanks to all for your inputs.

Bill

Bob Breeden
08-06-2011, 09:46 PM
Bill,

That was my kid. Let me know how I can help.

Bob

Bill Rusk
08-07-2011, 05:10 AM
Oops, thats embarrassing. My sincere apologies to you both. I'll pay more attention in the future. How cool is that to have a father and son both knowledgeable and posting on the site.

Bill

SteveE
08-07-2011, 06:31 AM
Bill,, on the extended torque tube extension,,, the bottom stringer will be in the way. I had 6 inches or so cut out so nothing can get caught between it and the bottom of the torque tube/cable attach. Built a square out of the stringer material and turned that into an inspection plate. Of course the pod covers it up now, but if you ever need to get into it, you have a cover there and the bottom stringer does not get in the way if a loose pencil finds its way down there.

aktango58
08-07-2011, 08:41 PM
Bill,

Sounds great!!!

Try to think about the tabs above the front gear attach for brake fittings. a flat piece of steel strait above the longeron, put a firewall fitting on for hydraulics. You can put both brake and amphib hookup on.

Aft baggage: try out randy's CF baggage maybe. cables stay in same place, and it uses all the room back there for lots less pounds.

Tabs for rear seats up above the rear seat channel. Much easier to use and less holes for stuff to fall through later on...

Just ideas. Great to see you going.

George

Bill Rusk
08-22-2011, 12:59 PM
Folks

I went up to see Jay at Javron last week and we went over all the changes and mods to my weldments. I will post more on that later but what I wanted to share in this post are the scales I have ordered to help keep track of things along the way. Both for my use and also so that others may benefit from the data. I look on these scales as tools just as a wrench, rivet gun or torque wrench. So while not directly tied to the cub itself they will find much use in the shop. No bathroom scales for me.

I ordered a small scale that will weigh, accurate to a tenth of a gram, up to 12 pounds...

http://myweigh.com/product/ibalance-5500/

And a second scale that will weigh, accurate to less than an ounce, to 130 pounds....

http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/my-weigh-hdcs-6020.html


I ordered from this company......

http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/

Hope this helps.

Bill

cubdriver2
08-22-2011, 02:25 PM
I think the DEA tracks who buys these scales but it shouldn't be a problem for you, unless you also happen to own an offroad airplane with big tires that can land anywhere and has LED lights to find little fields in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night. So you should be alright :o

Glenn

kevin
08-22-2011, 04:21 PM
Bill, I was just thinking to myself how your project was coming because I haven't seen any info from you in a while. Thanks for posting your update.

A while back ago, I was thinking about buying a scale from Wal Mart. I thought I could probably find one there.

Bill Rusk
08-30-2011, 07:43 PM
Folks

Jay has started the welding so I should have weldments in pretty short order. We changed the top x brace a little to accommodate the dual inertial reel shoulder harness set up. This should help with the neck pinch and chaffing of the typical V shaped shoulder harness.

We also set up a lip around the lower door opening such that the interior panels will tuck under this lip for a cleaner and more durable door area. I have seen interior panels bent and torn from sitting on the door sill when getting in, then also the front panel gets caught by the boot as you try to get in thus pulling it away from its attachment and bending it. This mod should take care of that.

We discussed how to get the radio PTT switch on the throttle. Done.

I will be using the lower longerons for the floor boards. Should save a couple of pounds.

I will take pictures of all the mods, and weigh the fuselage both, before and after, paint.


I should mention that a lot of the mods mentioned above in a previous post are really standard mods that Javron does for no extra charge. I just put them all here so folks who are not familiar with all this stuff could learn a little. I must say again how easy it is to work with Jay. He will pretty much build it any way you want.

Mark (MMR) found a different trim motor for me. I have not tried it out yet but on paper it has twice the torque, and spins a little faster. The last one worked just fine but this one should be even better. I will post more info after I try it out.

I am currently working on some weight data for mags, engines etc

I can say a 0-320 Carb, MA-4SPA weighs 52.28 Oz and a 0-360 Carb, MA-4-5 weighs 83.085 Oz. That is very close to 2 pounds heavier for a 0-360 carb. We are going to nail down just how much the weight penalty is when going from a 0-320 to an 0-360. More to follow.

Spoke to Univair

Std rear strut = 7.25 pds
Std Front strut = 11.45 pds

HD rear strut = 9.9 pds
HD Front strut = 14.4 pds

Thus the difference is 11.2 pounds added to the airplane for the Heavy duty struts. You may decide that it is worth it, all I am trying to do is let you know honestly just what you are adding Vs rumor and hearsay.

A Slick mag set up with 2-4347 model mags, harness, and 8 REM40E plugs weighs 189.05 Oz
A Bendix mag set up w/ 2-20 series model mags, harness, and 8 REM40E plugs weighs 238.95 Oz
Thats three pounds heavier for the Bendix. Is it worth it? Thats up to you but now you know.
Working on getting accurate Pmag and Lightspeed info now.

Hope this helps

Bill

Douten
08-30-2011, 07:55 PM
Saw a throttle body type carb on a exp.180 hp. SC that is tiny and looks like may save a few pounds and now the plane starts easy when hot, only been on a short while but looks like it works great.

Iflylower
08-30-2011, 08:43 PM
Bill, I remember from a thread a long time ago... HD struts are for heavy snow loads in AK, not for flying. I bought the standard lighter lifetime ones with the thicker forks.

Steve Pierce
08-30-2011, 09:35 PM
Weighed a stock factory Piper fuselage that has never been used. Still has the part number in crayon or grease pencil on the front tubes with paper wrapped around the front "V" brace and window and windshield trim strips. 97 1/4 lbs. It is primed in some yellow primer with a grayish green over everything except what is papered. Unfortunately had to cut into a rear longeron from someone mishandling it and a lot of linseed oil ran out. I have been weighing a lot of things as well Bill. Will post some when I get to my notes. I do remember the folding seat mod adds something like 2 lbs.

FdxLou
08-30-2011, 09:47 PM
Bill

The P Mags start paying you back $$$ the minute you start using them. Even if they are a few oz. heavier it would be worth it in the long run, IMHO.

Lou

mike mcs repair
08-30-2011, 10:49 PM
.....
Spoke to Univair

Std rear strut = 7.25 pds
Std Front strut = 11.45 pds

HD rear strut = 9.9 pds
HD Front strut = 14.4 pds
.
Bill

check airframes Inc.,
I think... its +3 per rear, and +.5 per front strut... I think thats going from original piper ones....

I think

I KNOW I always used +7. lbs when putting a HD set on.... whether that has changed or not.....????

mike mcs repair
08-30-2011, 10:52 PM
Bill, I remember from a thread a long time ago... HD struts are for heavy snow loads in AK, not for flying. I bought the standard lighter lifetime ones with the thicker forks.


and for wind from behind....

mike mcs repair
08-30-2011, 11:05 PM
Weighed a stock factory Piper fuselage that has never been used. Still has the part number in crayon or grease pencil on the front tubes with paper wrapped around the front "V" brace and window and windshield trim strips. 97 1/4 lbs. ...

and more importantly, you have a virgin as far as plum bob for level flight....

would be interesting to hear some of the angles from it in level flight.. the one I measured like that, in level flight was 1.0 deg trailing edge of wing down, firewall 90 deg....

just kinda neat to see how they were REALLY built, depending on which piper jig, not what the blueprint says.....

AkPA/18
08-31-2011, 03:39 AM
and for wind from behind....
I usually know when I get snow----- can't always predict when I get wind from behind. I went with the heavy rear---piece of mind!!!


Mark

mongo
08-31-2011, 06:57 AM
It would be interesting to get the weights of the D&E Aluminium struts.
They are pretty heavily but from what I have heard.
My electric trim motor is a Nissan power window motor, it is pretty compact and I would imagine the complete weight is about the same as the manual system but the nice thing is the weight is in the back.
I definitely would go with the composite floors, mine weighed half of the stock wood flooring.

Sent from my HTC Evo using Tapatalk

Super11XP
08-31-2011, 02:04 PM
You may consider the struts that Carlson Aircraft sell. I got a set for my 90 cub and the total weight with the ends put in them are 26-27 lbs. They may be on the light side for a heavier cub. I called D&E a long time ago and they said thier struts were something like 45 lbs.

aktango58
08-31-2011, 10:52 PM
Bill,

Just think about your beautiful cabin in the woods, fish jumping, waiting for the fly to bite. After a nice breakfast you wander down to your cub, ready to jump over to the lake with the 28" rainbows for a day of fishing, only to find your battery dead... (master, electric short, does not matter).

Non electric mags are important

tcraft128
09-01-2011, 06:02 AM
Bill,

Just think about your beautiful cabin in the woods, fish jumping, waiting for the fly to bite. After a nice breakfast you wander down to your cub, ready to jump over to the lake with the 28" rainbows for a day of fishing, only to find your battery dead... (master, electric short, does not matter).

Non electric mags are important

Pmags can be fired up with a 9 volt battery. Some people on the VAN's board have an underdash 9v pad that they can plug into for just this situation. Once they are spinning 1200 RPM, they dont need any outside current source.

Bill, I have a PMAG in a box, I will put it on a scale and PM you the weight tonight.

Bill Rusk
09-01-2011, 09:47 AM
Thank you.

Bill

Dave Calkins
09-01-2011, 10:33 AM
Bill,

Just think about your beautiful cabin in the woods, fish jumping, waiting for the fly to bite. After a nice breakfast you wander down to your cub, ready to jump over to the lake with the 28" rainbows for a day of fishing, only to find your battery dead... (master, electric short, does not matter).


I have also thought this scenario and questioned.....wait for it......

.........electric trim.

Any thoughts about handling trim with a dead batt??


Bill, I too, love this thread already. Weigh EVERYTHING!!! Good stuff.

Can't wait to hear p-mag weight!

Non electric mags are important, and P-mag handles this by the 9-volt transistor battery trick until the engine is running and the P-magnetos and alternator can boot-strap themselves (I had a very-dead battery at Valdez last spring.....photographer wanted a picture of the instrument panel and I walked away with the master left on afterward........9-volt battery allowed me to excite the alternator field and I was charging fine with this trick once I had the engine hand-propped and running. A little cord to plug into the cigarette lighter and 9-volt connector would be nice. I did it with bailing wire:lol:)

Bob Breeden
09-01-2011, 07:40 PM
FYI, Emag Pmags will self generate and fire the plugs smoothly down to 450 rpm, with the Master Off and no external electrical power.

mikeo
09-01-2011, 08:32 PM
I run dual Lightspeed have about 900 hrs on them , thought about the pmag but the trouble in Valdez with the pmag made a easy decision for me stuck with the light speed only unit that's been around 20 plus years an certified on a French helicpter mikeo

Bob Breeden
09-01-2011, 08:41 PM
Yes, Mike, and it was something to deal with: We had to swing our engine and replace a heat damaged P-mag the day before Valdez. P-Mags have heat-sensitive circuit boards and MUST MUST MUST be cooled, per the manual, with blast tubes directed at the cooling fins from the high pressure side of the cowling. They functioned properly once blast tubes were installed.

I am curious if anyone here spends time on the Van's RV equivalent of SuperCub.org and has any further operational knowledge of the P-Mags.

Mike, how do you insure voltage to your Lightspeed units in the event of Battery, Alternator, or other electrical system failure?

FdxLou
09-01-2011, 10:00 PM
Yes, Mike, and it was something to deal with: We had to swing our engine and replace a heat damaged P-mag the day before Valdez. P-Mags have heat-sensitive circuit boards and MUST MUST MUST be cooled, per the manual, with blast tubes directed at the cooling fins from the high pressure side of the cowling. They functioned properly once blast tubes were installed.

I am curious if anyone here spends time on the Van's RV equivalent of SuperCub.org and has any further operational knowledge of the P-Mags.

Mike, how do you insure voltage to your Lightspeed units in the event of Battery, Alternator, or other electrical system failure?

Bob

My P-mag install manual said that blast tubes were mandatory....mine now have 900 hrs on them and haven't given me any trouble. I am assuming you added the blast tubes AFTER the P-mag failure. I hate to see them get a bad name when installed improperly. Great company and great product.

Lou

Nathan K. Hammond
09-01-2011, 11:35 PM
Bill, great thread and what will become an even better airplane.

What are you going to do about hardware? Things like lock nuts; steel, nylon, NASA, or castle nuts with a pin? Stainless or Cad-plated screws? Nylon or metal washers?

Leo Loudenslager was fanatic about cutting as much weight as possible out of his Lazar and the Shark. When rebuilding the Lazer, he would assemble a part, then hacksaw all but one thread off the end of a bolt or screw. He kept every little piece he cut off in a 5 gallon bucket that probably weighed 15 pounds by the time he was done. Ounces lead to pounds.

nkh

aktango58
09-02-2011, 12:25 AM
Today we needed some much needed stress relief...

so the razor knife came out and fabric started falling off my old girl. We now have one big inspection hole in the side.

As we look into the plane right now, there is a very noticeable couple of spots where dissimilar metal corrosion is incredible. Were we put the pulleys for the water rudders around the longeron, each of the brackets are corroded, and the one longeron is in really bad shape.

This was on floats starting about six years ago, and was washed out after every salt use. After beach landings I would hose it off.

My conclusion is that one should try to keep all metals the same, or have good separation.

pittsdriver
09-02-2011, 07:54 AM
Bill, We machined a few throttle knobs with a PTT in the end. I have a couple I can sell. Email and I can send a picture. Don

dchapton@cableone.net

Bill Rusk
09-02-2011, 10:14 AM
I will have to reweigh the mags. I forgot the impulse coupling. If we are going to post data it needs to be accurate. So stand by for a correction.

This came from the Airframes Alaska website ( I hope they don't get upset at me for reposting it here).

The question was about a widebody fuselage....

Question: How much more does it weigh?
Answer: Each customer gets different modifications on their fuselage but in general, the wide-body frame is 12 lbs heavier than our standard fuselage. In a recent comparison, we weighed an original piper fuselage at about 95lbs. A comparable standard fuselage from us with the basic modifications for strength and safety, weighs about 109lbs*. A similarly equipped wide-body frame with steel stringers weighs in at 125lbs*. A business partner recently reported to us that a competing standard frame weighed 127lbs! *These weights include our recommended prime powder coat.


I have tried to get the weights of the Cub Crafters AL struts but I have not had much response.

Nathan - I will be watching the hardware too. Thanks for the info.

Dave - I have considered the no trim issue. I think I can live with it for one flight to get back to a repair point. I would just have to fly at the last trimmed speed for greatest comfort for a while. It is not so much for the weight savings on this item as the convenience. It is really nice to trim without having to take your hand off of the throttle. Personal preference. I would also loose all my avionics too as I will have a glass panel again to save weight. Good idea to set up a connector for the mags. I will add that to the list.

Bill

kevin
09-02-2011, 01:44 PM
Bill, Will you be going with a Wide Body?

Bill Rusk
09-02-2011, 02:16 PM
Kevin

No, this one is a narrow body. The last one was a widebody, and it was certainly good but in this case I think I will be just as comfortable and lighter. In addition to the weight of the bare frame you must also take into account the wider and heavier windshield, floorboards, skylight etc. I am fairly small in stature so I fit into a std. Cub fine. For others the widebody will be worth the weight and offset by the comfort.

Bill

tempdoug
09-02-2011, 03:27 PM
Brake master cylinders up front? No rear throttle lever? 1/2 size header tank, if any? No rear control stick? For saving weight i sure wish J. Burr would chime in here and share some secerets especially on the other subject thats running now. JERRY? doug

kevin
09-02-2011, 03:47 PM
Kevin

No, this one is a narrow body. The last one was a widebody, and it was certainly good but in this case I think I will be just as comfortable and lighter. In addition to the weight of the bare frame you must also take into account the wider and heavier windshield, floorboards, skylight etc. I am fairly small in stature so I fit into a std. Cub fine. For others the widebody will be worth the weight and offset by the comfort.

Bill

Thanks Bill. You make a good point with those other items. I am a small person so I would stick with a narrow body too.

mikeo
09-02-2011, 04:52 PM
Bob I have a 1.2 amp hr battery back up weighs 10 OZ works great is 11/2 inch Mikeo

Bill Rusk
09-12-2011, 04:21 PM
More info on Mag weights

The Slick 43XX series bare mag weighs 63.625 oz
The gear that goes on the shaft weighs 4.24 oz
The Impulse coupling weighs 12.025 oz
The spacer for the impulse mag weighs 4.805 oz
The complete harness (both sides) 26.54 oz
(4) REM 40E plugs w/washers 15.63 oz
Total Slick package (2mags, 1 w/ impulse, harness, 8 plugs) = 210.36 oz, 13.1475pds

According to Brad Dement From the E-mag company the complete and comparable P-mag set up weighs right at 10.0 pds.

A weight savings of 3.14 pounds.

The weight savings over a Bendix set up is 6.2pds

According to Klaus Savier at Lightspeed Engineering his system is 4 pounds lighter than a mag system but that is without a backup battery which would add weight, the amount depending on the size and weight of the battery selected. No back up battery is needed with the P-mag set up (except possibly a 9 volt to get the engine started in the event of a totally dead battery). With the P-mag set up the engine will continue to run with total electrical failure as the P-mag has an internal alternator (that works above 400 RPM) kinda like the standard mags. The lightspeed ignition system does not have this feature so that with total electrical failure the engine would die unless you have a back up battery to keep things going until you can find a place to land.

So basically, electronic ignitions save about 3 to 6 pounds, give or take.

Bill

spinner2
09-12-2011, 05:31 PM
More info on Mag weights

So basically, electronic ignitions save about 3 to 6 pounds, give or take.

Bill

There are other advantages to electronic ignition too besides the weight savings. Variable timing with RPM and manifold pressure inputs is the big one. And changing timing means a noticable improvement in fuel consumption and a no-hesitation response when the throttle is opened quickly.

Mags are 1930's technology and electronic ignition is 1980's technology.

Bill Rusk
09-12-2011, 10:12 PM
Yes, I was remiss to omit the performance aspect of electronic ignition. Lou Furlong has personally enjoyed the emags/pmags for years and has also shared that info with others. I think this is pretty much a win win. Lighter and better.

Tempdog I agree that those items you mentioned will save weight but I think I will be a little closer to stock in most of those items. I want a stick in the back, throttle, and brakes too. It seems I often fly with others and I want to be able to trade landings, do a little instruction (not for hire, I know the rules), and let my pax fly a little too. But keep the ideas coming.

I had a nice visit with Jay at Javron today. I will have my fuselage completely sandblasted, use a zinc rich primer powder coat, (with emphasis on the most common corrosion areas), followed by a powder topcoat. This will cost a bit extra but I feel this will provide the best corrosion protection for an airplane that I expect to put on floats and quite possibly in salt water as well, ie the Southeast Alaska area. The fuselage will be weighed before and after for the record.

As I mentioned before Jay is interested in building fuselages a bit closer to the original plans. Plans call for all the truss members of the fuselage aft of the cockpit (excluding the longerons) to be .028 wall thickness. Seems everyone has gotten in the habit of using .035 for everything in the aft part of the fuselage. Jay has two fuselages now, identical except for the tubing thickness aft of the cockpit and they will be weighed in the next day or two. This will give us a firm and accurate measure of the weight penalty incurred for this "modification". I put modification in quotes because I am not really sure that it was ever a customer demand, but I think rather the kit companies and aftermarket fuselage guys just fell into it because it was easier to use all the same size tubing to keep things simple. I certainly understand that, but it adds unnecessary weight. We will soon find out how much. Thanks to Jay for taking the time to weigh things out and get back to basics. My fuselage will use the .028 tubing as per the plans.

Hope this helps

Bill

mike mcs repair
09-12-2011, 11:37 PM
....will have my fuselage completely sandblasted, use a zinc rich primer powder coat, (with emphasis on the most common corrosion areas), followed by a powder topcoat. This will cost a bit extra but I feel this will provide the best corrosion protection for an airplane that I expect to put on floats and quite possibly in salt water as well, ie the Southeast Alaska area.

one thing I have considered, but not really done/thought threw yet, is drilling bolt hole a little larger BEFORE powder coating, since that seems to be where the corrosion starts UNDER powder coating when you have to drill ALL the powder coating out of a hole to fit bolt in..... in problem areas like tail spring mounts.....

drilling holes slightly larger will allow some powder coating still and hole and keep it sealed......

thoughts??? good idea???, bad idea????

skywagon8a
09-13-2011, 06:29 AM
Bill
I understand the idea of keeping it light. Are you also considering what happens to the C.G. when you lighten some areas? For example: Using .028" wall tubing instead of .035" in the aft section will move the C.G. forward. I know not much, but it is part of the equation. The bulk of SC improvements have a tendency to shift the C.G. forward.

Mike
My vote--bad idea. Although there is often slop in a bolt hole should it not be the best fit possible? Just assemble it with a good water proof grease to counteract the corrosion problem. Don't start with an over sized hole.

Dave Calkins
09-13-2011, 09:22 AM
Mike, my thoughts follow with skywagon8a on the oversize hole concerns. I'm open to more discussion on it.

Bill, my thoughts follow with skywagon8a on the issue of light tubing in the tail and forward CG tendencies of "improved" Cubs. It takes more than just "lightweight" to have a good flying cub, in my opinion.

SuperCub MD
09-13-2011, 10:19 AM
Bill,

Using the lower longerons for the baggage floor is a good idea. I'd run the floorboards flat from the firewall all the way back. You don't have to run the elevator cables under the belly. Cover them with a aluminum hat section and make the rear seat bottom removable like a A model. Less weight and a lot more usable space.

I'd see if this guy would build a A model frame to start with, and finish the turtle deck and windows like Wayne does.

Boz

mike mcs repair
09-13-2011, 10:51 PM
Mike, my thoughts follow with skywagon8a on the oversize hole concerns. I'm open to more discussion on it.

ya....

I didn't mean big sloppy over size, just a few thou or so, so when you drill out most of the powder coat, there is some left in there keeping edges sealed.... no different than a bolt cad coating or chrome changing the dimension of something/taken into account.... but alas powder coating is soft.....

Bill Rusk
09-14-2011, 09:20 AM
Pete - that is a risk. In a perfect world the CG will be forward in an empty config so that when you stuff all your camping gear in it you do not go aft of CG. But that also makes it a little less pleasant to fly when light as the forward CG impacts the handling and feel. I do not know where the CG will end up right now so all efforts are to keep it as light as possible in every area. Remember, this is not something new, I am only going back to the original Supercub specifications.

Mike - I agree that it hurts to disturb that nice paint and corrosion protection but I guess we are stuck. A good grease is about all we can do. I have contemplated the same thing you are talking about. Perhaps a little Vari-prime in the hole as it is very thin and might still help a little.

Boz - great to hear from you. Been a while. Thanks for the suggestions. I did not go with an A model, guess I could have, honestly did not think about it. But Javron would build you one if you wanted. This guy can, and will, build you whatever you want. No doubt he could do what you suggested. Probably a little late for me but might work for the next guy.

To all - My understanding is Jay now has drawings to a new three piece stamped rib that will be much lighter than the built up ribs from D&E, Carlson etc, and will be used in his wings. This rib will be closer to the weight of the original Piper rib, probably stronger, (I have not seen the engineering data but it was designed by an aero engineer that frequents this site) and should take several pounds out of the wings, again getting back to the original Piper weights. It make take a month or two to get the ribs in production but the wheel is in motion. So, for those of you scratch building and in need of ribs, I think you are going to have a great option available soon. I know Jay is also going to make a complete wing kit available soon using these ribs.

Great things are happening.

Hope this helps

Bill

Bill Rusk
09-14-2011, 10:11 AM
Christian Sturm came for a visit. When I last visited him he had turned me on to the little Honda CT-70 minibike (also used by Addison Pemberton) as a great little way to get around the airport. I happened on to a good deal on Craigs List, so I now have..... not one, but two of these little Mini-Trail bikes to play with. These are 1993 models. Great fun, and there is quite a following of the CT-70 on the net, so web sites, forums, support, and parts are readily available. Cool new toys.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_0146.jpg

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_01471.jpg

Christian and I went to the Midwest Antique Airplane Club (MAAC) fly-in at Brodhead and got to see lots of classic airplanes like this beautiful Travelair 4000.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_01481.jpg

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_01491.jpg


I got to fly this Marquart Charger. Neat airplane and fun to fly.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_01521.jpg




Then it was back home where we spent a little time playing with the Hatz.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/046.jpg

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_0155.jpg

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_0158.jpg


A great time. I am fortunate indeed to have Christians friendship and I am thankful for his help after my little "splash and stop". (a different way to do a "touch and go").

Bill

kevin
09-14-2011, 12:32 PM
Hi Bill, I have a friend of mine who was at Brodhead in his Travel Air. From what he has told me about it in the past, it sounds like a magical place. That is a cute Hatz you have there Bill, the way the front cowl tapers to the engine reminds me of a Travel Air. What engine do you have?

P.S., Those wing ribs sound great!

Steve Pierce
09-14-2011, 12:51 PM
Bill, I don't like powder coating myself. Saw an Airframes fuselage after it sat in a hanger at Broadhead for a few years and all the places I use an airbrush on to make sure there is paint everywhere had little rust spots. Epoxy primer and polyurethane top coat work for me. If you use powder coating use a reamer to clean the hole and put grease in the hole or roll the paper you wrap steel internal engine parts in and insert it in the hole till assembly.

I spoke with Airframes yesterday and they are working on certifying an A model fuselage.

Iflylower
09-14-2011, 12:56 PM
I'm of the same opinion on powdercoat. I'm not happy with it and wouldn't do it again.

I LOVE the sound of those new ribs! Can't wait to see them.

kevin
09-14-2011, 01:13 PM
I have to agree with Steve on the powdercoat issue. I've been told to stay away from it because it adds weight, it is hard to make a repair after it is powdercoated and hard to see cracks under the powdercoat. With that being said, I understand why guys powdercoat. My dad powdercoated his airframe on his Champ he restored in Seattle area. He did it because he couldn't have it primered in time before the rust started to set in after it was blasted. I will say that they look great after they are powdercoated though.

As far as primering is concerned, I used Stitts EP-420 green on my airframe. I'm a firm believer that if a good 2 part epoxy primer is used, such as the Poly Fiber's primer, that will provide superior protection in itself.

Bill Rusk
09-14-2011, 01:43 PM
Well after all that input I may have to change the plan. What everyone normally seems to do is, 1) sandblast just the bad places ie welds with a lot of slag, 2) clean with a phosphoric wash, 3) powdercoat

I was hoping to improve on that by....1) sandblasting the entire frame, gives better adheasion and does not coat over already started rust...then 2) primer powdercoat ....then 3) top powdercoat

Have any of you guys had any experience with that? Were the problem powdercoats due to no prep, or no primer first?
It does seem that a lot of powdercoating is done with little to no prep first.
Cal - what was your experience?

Gathering data here and not afraid to make a 180 degree turn if required.

Thanks

Bill

Kevin - Thats a Warner Super Scarab 145hp

MainlandCub
09-14-2011, 01:46 PM
Bill,

Using the lower longerons for the baggage floor is a good idea. I'd run the floorboards flat from the firewall all the way back. You don't have to run the elevator cables under the belly. Cover them with a aluminum hat section and make the rear seat bottom removable like a A model. Less weight and a lot more usable space.

I'd see if this guy would build a A model frame to start with, and finish the turtle deck and windows like Wayne does.

Boz

Who is Wayne and how does he finish the turtle deck and windows.

All I've ever had is A models; they make more sense to me than the other kind anyway.......:smile:

Marty57
09-14-2011, 01:54 PM
It's interesting that certified lifetime lift struts can be purchased powdercoated or not. So, there must be a way to do it correctly. The other problems of not being able to see cracks as easily and repairability still would exist. Has anyone used Stewart's metal primer on a fuselage yet? I have used it on smaller parts and like it but nothing big yet.
Marty57

kevin
09-14-2011, 01:55 PM
Bill, I can not tell you on the process. The powdercoater will blast, then powdercoat. I thought powdercoat was powdercoat and didn't know about a primer powdercoat then top powdercoat. I personally would just stay away from it in general and only blast then epoxy primer. I think that would be more than sufficient. If you are on float and in salt, then I would suggest the polyeurthane top coat too. All in my opinon. I'm sure what you choose will be the right thing to do.

spinner2
09-14-2011, 02:03 PM
I was hoping to improve on that by....1) sandblasting the entire frame, gives better adheasion and does not coat over already started rust...then 2) primer powdercoat ....then 3) top powdercoat

Have any of you guys had any experience with that? Were the problem powdercoats due to no prep, or no primer first?
Thanks

Bill

Kevin - Thats a Warner Super Scarab 145hp

Bill, I had a fuselage powder coated as you described; sand blast and immediately go to the zinc-rich primer half backed and then top coated. Worked really well. I've had a lot of parts and pieces coated over the years, aviation related and otherwise, and I've never seen a problem with powder coating.

mvivion
09-14-2011, 02:12 PM
Just as a reference point, I operated a 1969 Super Cub on floats in summer and some on wheels in the (short) winters in Kodiak. That airplane did a lot of sitting on a bank on floats before I got there, but in the eight years I was flying it, it pretty much got used all year. It was REGULARLY in salt water, with only a splash into fresh water after. In winter, it landed on ocean beaches regularly. No hose, no wash down.

In 1984, the Grade A cotton fabric was getting weak (airplane was never hangared) so it went to Center's shop for new fabric. I wasn't at all sure I'd ever see the plane again, because I figured it would be badly corroded. Turns out that the frame was in great shape, even after a LOT of exposure to salt water and salty air. I was impressed.

Those airframes were carefully and thoroughly coated with zinc chromate.

I think the key is go do a thorough and effective job getting whatever coating you use on the frame.

I'd be skeptical of powder coat just because of the difficulty of repairs.

MTV

Bugs66
09-14-2011, 03:15 PM
Hey Guys, I had a fabulous time at Brodhead this past weekend! Bill was a gracious host and made me feel at home. This was my first Brodhead and I thought it was the best fly-in I have been to yet. I took a lot of video and will get some up on You Tube soon.

For those of you interested in Bill's Hatz, I had the pleasure of flying it and I can tell you this is one honey of an airplane! That combination of the Hatz and Warner 145 is a match made in heaven. Beautiful plane that flies superb. Mehlin Smith, the builder, got it perfect with his modifications. Here is a cell phone video I made at Bill's place, will get some HD video of it up in the future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDrrojUbPBs

3611 3612

mike mcs repair
09-14-2011, 05:20 PM
Fully blast it, and Powder coat it. I would never go back to primer... Never ever... To repair/weld you just hit area to weld with oxy torch. Then brush of with wire brush. Simple....

All I use. Might call advanced powder coating in big lake and pick their brain. Only place i have used since they opened 15 - 20?? years ago...

jgerard
09-14-2011, 08:35 PM
Painting or powder-coating it all boils down the the craftsmanship of the person doing the work. Properly done by the right person there are advantages to both. I myself prefer to prime and paint.

Marty in regards to using the EkoPrime or EkoPoxy on a fuse. Works great and both have a ton of anti corrosion additves. That being said, My self and anyone else whose primed and painted fuselages will tell you it's one of the least favorite thing to prime and paint. FYI never just leave steel in bare primer. Primers, primer sealers, Epoxy primers, are all still just primers and have never been intended to be left with out a top coat of paint. Epoxy primers are not UV stable and break down quickly in direct sunlight.

Jason

StewartB
09-14-2011, 11:24 PM
When I received my PA-12 airframe it had piss poor powder coating. That was my one and only bad experience with powder coat. After the crummy powder was removed from the -12 it was phosphated, primed, and powder coated locally. Tough, attractive, and flawless to date. My 180's gear has lived outdoors for the 15-16 years since it was coated by Advanced in their start-up days. Other than the expected gravel dings it's perfect. Where the dings have rusted there's no evidence that the adjoining powder is being compromised. Tons of other parts are powder coated in both my planes. Three different shops have done the coating. Rudder pedals, floor boards, headliner, gear, panels... all perfect. Zero complaints. I'll stay with powder for any aircraft part where it makes sense and I recommend it to my friends who ask.

SB

MainlandCub
09-15-2011, 04:47 AM
As I mentioned before Jay is interested in building fuselages a bit closer to the original plans. Plans call for all the truss members of the fuselage aft of the cockpit (excluding the longerons) to be .028 wall thickness. Seems everyone has gotten in the habit of using .035 for everything in the aft part of the fuselage. Jay has two fuselages now, identical except for the tubing thickness aft of the cockpit and they will be weighed in the next day or two. This will give us a firm and accurate measure of the weight penalty incurred for this "modification". I put modification in quotes because I am not really sure that it was ever a customer demand, but I think rather the kit companies and aftermarket fuselage guys just fell into it because it was easier to use all the same size tubing to keep things simple. I certainly understand that, but it adds unnecessary weight. We will soon find out how much. Thanks to Jay for taking the time to weigh things out and get back to basics. My fuselage will use the .028 tubing as per the plans.

Hope this helps

Bill

Bill,

I have the frame tubing from the Northland CD drawings entered in a spreadsheet. Today I changed the .028 wall thickness tubing to .035 wall thickness to see what the weight difference would be. It is 3.4 lbs. It will be interesting what you and Jay come up with as a difference when you weigh the frames.

As for the effect on c of g, I can't tell the difference if I remove the towhook on a Cub, which is more than 3.4 lbs and further back.

Andrew.

Superchub
09-18-2011, 09:22 PM
Fully blast it, and Powder coat it. I would never go back to primer... Never ever... To repair/weld you just hit area to weld with oxy torch. Then brush of with wire brush. Simple....

All I use. Might call advanced powder coating in big lake and pick their brain. Only place i have used since they opened 15 - 20?? years ago...

I second Mike. This can't repair stuff is bologna. I have repaired several RV-6 rudder pedals and engine mounts with powder on them and I have always used this trick. Works great!!

Bill Rusk
09-24-2011, 08:52 AM
Folks

First let me say "Thank You" for all your inputs.

Lets talk weight and drilling brake rotors out.

A Supercub friend told me he drilled his rotors and saved 1.5 pounds (24 oz). I don't think he is quite as fastidious about all this weight stuff as I am, or perhaps his rotors are much different than mine, but at any rate I had my rotors drilled to save weight. They now look like this.......

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_01601.jpg


The Bottom line.......

The rotors before drilling weighed 45.300 and 45.050.
After drilling they weighed 41.145 and 41.375

Net saving 7.83 Oz.

Not much for 200 dollars. So, I am now of the opinion that this is not a very cost effective weight savings area. Which brings up another point. How much is too much? I think the "cost per pound saved" value will vary from person to person but once you get over 100 dollars per pound you are getting pretty fanatical. With things like light weight starters and alternators you are in the 50.00 dollars per pound zone, i.e. a 500 dollar starter saves you 10 pounds. This effort saved me 1/2 pound and thus the relative cost was at 400 per pound. That is way too much for me and I will chalk this one up as a mistake. But now you know the hard facts and can make your own personal choice.

Hope this helps

Bill

cubdriver2
09-24-2011, 09:06 AM
Bill why not drill out the rest of the hub not just the rotor area

Glenn

Iflylower
09-24-2011, 09:08 AM
Good point Bill. I'd bring up 10 years ago when I was really into mountain biking, doing some light racing and building as light as I could.

I found two things:

1. Buying light parts.... I made a lot of improvements at first dropping weight drastically. I hit a wall where significant part cost was gaining merely a couple grams of weight savings when lunch made a hellava lot more difference. (Side note: rotational weight paid off tremendously on rims and light knobbed tires.)

2. The lighter I got, the much more maintenance I was doing. I had light components, but they weren't taking the bulldogging through the rides. I was truing wheels a lot more and stretching lighter cables, and breaking chains and derailleurs.

I think the same can apply in cubs to an extent.

But Lord, light is fun! Thanks for weighing Bill.

skywagon8a
09-24-2011, 09:38 AM
Bill,
I seem to recall from the back of my memory bank that brake disks of this type were offered at one time. A friend bought a set and found that the brake pucks wore out in less time than the undrilled discs. The edges of the drill holes acted like a shaving tool.

brown bear
09-24-2011, 10:18 AM
Bill
Now that you have become a "Homebuilder" you need to start thinking like one!
Why pay someone 200$ to drill 200 holes?
It would be good to hear how the holes affect the brake pad life
Doug

aktango58
09-24-2011, 10:27 AM
Bill,

you could have brought them up here and done it yourself on my mill...

Next time you have a part to take metal off, bring it up and we can talk flying and do machining... not much flying for me for a while

Iflylower
09-24-2011, 10:28 AM
Maybe a small chamfer to help wear? What do those race cars do for their drilled disks?


Bill why not drill out the rest of the hub not just the rotor area

Glenn

I do like that look. And it does save weight. Maybe make swiss cheese out of that thing?

kevin
09-24-2011, 11:00 AM
Bill, I know it is a lot of money for what was done but in the grand scheme of things, it is just about a half pound savings. Another one of these type of savings and you just saved a pound! I have a friend who did this on his SQ2. They look good and they saved him weight.

mongo
09-24-2011, 11:21 AM
In racing we no-longer run drilled rotors, we machine grooves, this achieves the same affect, allowing gases to escape improving performance, but is less pron to cracking.
Drilled rotors should have improved braking on water assisted landings.

Sent from my HTC Evo using Tapatalk

dougc905
09-24-2011, 03:16 PM
Looking at your pictures, it doesn't seem that you removed very much (volume of) steel. From what I understand, 'properly' drilled automotive rotors have chamfered edges on the holes. Drilling isn't done for weight savings in auto applications - it gives gasses a placed to go under heavy braking as opposed to floating the pads.

Live & learn eh?

I'm learning a lot from reading this thread. Thanks for starting it.

DW
09-24-2011, 03:23 PM
Chamfering yes a must and DON'T use cleveland pads use grove's kevlar pads or Greg Millers. I use Millers more money but at this point I quit counting.

Mauleguy
09-24-2011, 08:03 PM
Well since I am the one who is the culprit here for doing the drilling I feel bad that you feel you were ripped off. Just a few things from my own experience with drilling holes in things to save weight. I did it for myself initially and it worked great, it does not need a chamfer from my own experience. I have thousands of landings on my pads and discs (over 1200 hours and have not replaced them). The discs still look new and the pads are probably still 50% today. These holes don't work like a cheese grater because your pads are parallel to the disc, nothing is sticking up to grate.

I have drilled them for others and I think it is about 1/2 pound per disc if you have the thick ones (2 rivet brake pads). The thin discs like Bill Rusk had (3 rivet pads) take less material because the brake disc is thinner to start with.

I would rather not do this for anyone because it is not really worth the effort to drill 2 brake discs. Set mill up with three jaw, touch tools off, center drill a lot of holes and then drill a lot of holes, box parts up and invoice, take parts to post office and make $160.00 Believe me when I say this is a hard way to make a buck.

For those that wish to have them drilled I will still do it but be warned this is as Bill says an expensive way to save weight if you don't own a CNC mill, I do, so it is cheap for me.

Greg

mike mcs repair
09-24-2011, 08:12 PM
Net saving 7.83 Oz.

Not much for 200 dollars.

Bill

I don't think that's bad for weight saving cost........ ~+$400.00 a pound.... but it's your money :-)

Steve Pierce
09-24-2011, 10:01 PM
Well since I am the one who is the culprit here for doing the drilling I feel bad that you feel you were ripped off.

I didn't get the feeling that Bill felt ripped off from his post. I read it as he didn't think the weight savings is worth the cost or effort. Nothing bad about the person that did the work, it all takes time, experience and expensive equipment.

dougc905
09-24-2011, 10:04 PM
The chafering reduces cracking that could originate at a drilled hole. Discs on a Cub probably don't get hot enough for heat stress to cause cracking. After a track day with my car, sometimes the discs were blue from the heat.

aktango58
09-24-2011, 10:09 PM
Greg,

You doing that for a living and only charging $160????

So that would be $20 in bits, $100 in set up and tear down time, $100 in time to do the drilling, and then postage...

Yup, make lots of $$$ doing this stuff.

I do it for friends just to keep practice. But truthfully, it takes more time to do that work than one can ever get paid. Like building your own plane...

of course, who needs brakes anyway?

Bill Rusk
09-24-2011, 10:24 PM
Folks

I am so sorry about this. I DO NOT FEEL RIPPED OFF. Greg was great in every respect. He was quick and professional and for the work done I feel the price was very reasonable. Like George says, no way could I have done that in terms of time or money. I was led to believe by others (NOT Greg) that the weight savings would be greater so I was surprised. I just made the post so folks would know the facts and thus be able to make informed decisions rather that hearing things like "well I know a friend of a buddys' second nephew that saved 3 pounds drilling his rotors". I did not mean to impugn Greg or anyone else. Greg....please please understand I was not implying I was in any way unhappy with the work you did or the price. I can not tell you guys how bad I feel about this.

Bill

Cubpylut
09-24-2011, 10:28 PM
I agree with Pierce, I don't think Bill's post implied he felt he was ripped off. Just that the law of dimisinishing return had kicked in. We had a family friend set an altitude record in his Long Ez about 15 years ago (35,000 ft +-) and during the planning for the altitude record, he was pulling all kinds of "extra" items out of the Long when he realized the greatest weight savings he could make was a diet!

My wife and I have lost over 50 lbs since January of this year and that weight savings has a very high return on investment!

James Smith

Mauleguy
09-24-2011, 10:35 PM
Bill, Sorry for making my reply as I am not interested in making you feel bad. I know that those were my words and not yours (ripped off).

Sorry

Greg

Bill Rusk
09-24-2011, 10:43 PM
Sometimes the internet and written words (without all the inflection, body language, and extra explanations) can sure make communication difficult. Greg, next time I am out your way dinner and beer is on me. We will laugh and talk about saving weight, flying cool airplanes, and landing on gravel bars.

Bill

Mauleguy
09-24-2011, 10:52 PM
you got it... save some time out for flying too

brown bear
09-25-2011, 08:48 AM
I too am sorry my post came off bad.
Keep up the good work Bill , this is a great thread!
Doug

DW
09-25-2011, 12:02 PM
Greg is the house done so you can get back to flying? Haven't seen you down on the river in a while.

Nocub
09-27-2011, 09:29 AM
Hi Bill:
What is your current thinking on Doug's double slotted fowler flaps on this build?
"Doug

Please sign me up for a set. I see a new set of wings in my future. I will see you this weekend with deposit in hand!

Bill"

PA-22/20-160
10-11-2011, 09:54 AM
I did some weighing today on wing part's from Piper Univair, Dakota and Airframes if anyone is interested might help when building light.
Wing Rib's
Stock aileron 6.8oz
Dakota aileron 13.1oz
Univair aileron 13.1oz
Stock Outboard aileron 9.1oz
Dakota outboard aileron 15.0oz
Stock tip rib 5.4oz
Dakota tip rib 10.4oz
univair fuel lid rib 14.5oz
Dakota fuel lid rib 14.9
Stock Nose rib 1.1oz
Univair Nose rib 2.1oz
Dakota nose rib 2.9oz

Fuel Tanks and lids
Stock 18gal tank 9.0lbs
Dakota 24gal tank 13lbs 2oz
stock lid 4lbs
Dakota lid 4lbs 10oz

Lift Struts
Airframes bare HD 5/8" forks
Front 12lbs 2oz
Rear 10lbs 4oz
Univair W/paint 5/8" forks
Front 12lbs 10oz
Rear 8lbs 5oz

Bill Rusk
10-11-2011, 06:52 PM
PA-22/20-160

Thanks! Great info.

Bill

Jim Miller
10-12-2011, 04:28 AM
My wife and I have lost over 50 lbs since January of this year and that weight savings has a very high return on investment!

James Smith



Cubpylut
Congrats on the weight loss. Fifty pounds will cover for a lot of aluminum or 4130. Making sure we can still fit in our old military uniforms we wore at 21 will do great
things for our cub's performance.

tempdoug
01-06-2012, 08:52 AM
Any updates or cool new discovery items????

Bill Rusk
01-06-2012, 08:18 PM
Well.....Lord willing I am supposed to travel North on Jan the 18th and pick up all the weldments. Basically everything except the wings. It took a little longer than I hoped for but I am still very pleased with all my transactions with Jay and Javron. I know he has hired three welders since I ordered my kit as he is ramping up production. He had several kits in front of mine and he has at least 13 fuselages behind me. So get ready for lots of post and pictures.

Engine - After GREAT consideration and lost sleep I have decided to go with the 0-360 series. It will cost about 18 pounds on the nose not including the prop.
The deciding factor was a recently surfaced memory of my ill fated trip wherein I discovered the ABSOLUTE ceiling of my cub (loaded pretty heavy and on floats) was 10,200 feet on a cool day. Approaching Great Falls, Montana I could not go over the ridgeline but had to go South through the Rogers Pass then back North to Seeley Lake. I did not have the option to go over the mountains at 9500' because I was falling out of the sky at 10K. I think the 0-360 will help in that regard, and though I much prefer the look of the traditional round wingtip, the extended wing seems to really "work" at the higher altitudes and weights, thus I am rethinking my wing choice as well. This is, for me, a big part of the mission for the airplane....floats and mountain lakes. I will still be shooting for a empty weight of 1100 pds. Gonna be tough but if you can't handle the heat ........

Mark Rusche (MMR here) has been over lately working on his PA12 and last week we did a little more weighing.
On the Smithcub I used 1/16 2024 and contact cemented a heavy tweed fabric to it to do the interior. I really liked the look and "feel" of this but it did add some weight.
Here is a picture

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/Interior2.jpg
1 Sq ft of 1/16 AL weighs 3.75 oz
plus cement weighs 4.72
plus fabric weighs 6.75 oz total
So 6.75 oz per square foot of interior panels. If we figure (roundly) that the baggage compartment is 2'X4' on the sides and 2'X2' on the back we get 20 square feet of area = 8.437 pounds in Fabric, or 5.3 pounds in .040 Kydex. So I can save 3 pounds in the baggage compartment area if I use Kydex. And even more if I use .028 Kydex. I like the look and feel of the fabric interior and will probably still use it in the cockpit area even at the expense of some weight. I know that no interior is the lightest and that works for some folks, (cool, go for it,) but for me I prefer a little more refined interior. But nonetheless I just found 3 pounds.

So that is where I am......waiting for the 18th.......like a kid waiting for Santa........

Thanks for asking

Bill

Crash
01-06-2012, 10:46 PM
P Mags

I thought these looked like the ticket till Bob B. had one quit on his O-375 Cub with less then 80 hours on it. Opened it up and several capacitors fell out. They had broken / fallen off the main circuit board. P Mag said they thought it had gotten too hot. I looked at it and it seemed to me like heat was not the culprit.

The capacitors are about the size of a pencil eraser. The capacitor legs go through holes in the circuit board and are soldered on the back, printed side of the circuit board. They are then "bedded" in what looks like hot glue to stabilize them.

It looked like the "glue" had broken free of the circuit board and the capacitors shook back and forth (O-375) till their legs fatigued and broke.

Unless P-Mag has figured out how to fix this so it will NEVER happen again, I'd get my spark else where.

Take care,

Crash

Check Six
01-07-2012, 02:13 AM
Hi Bill,

Thoroughly enjoying your thread! Thanks for posting the weight of the fabric covered aluminum!

How much weight do you guesstimate powder coating the fuselage added (or saved) vs just using a good two part epoxy primer/sealer? You did go with powder coating, correct?

Thanks,

Tom

Bugs66
01-07-2012, 04:00 AM
That is unfortunate on the P-mag. I will be installing one on my right side and will run 1 Slick and 1 Pmag. Supposed to get 80% of the benefits. If my pmag fails still have the left Slick with impulse coupler.

skywagon8a
01-07-2012, 05:52 AM
Engine - After GREAT consideration and lost sleep I have decided to go with the 0-360 series. It will cost about 18 pounds on the nose not including the prop.
But nonetheless I just found 3 pounds.

That means that the engine is only going to cost 15 pounds now.

I feel your excitement Bill!

Bill Rusk
01-07-2012, 09:45 AM
Crash (and others) - Don't know when that Pmag was manufactured. In the first couple of years there were some problems; however, in the last few years the Pmags seem to have excellent reliability. Here is a link to the RV forums where there is a lot of good info. Like SC.org but an even larger group of folks. It is a great resource to search for info on common items like mags, alternators, instruments, paint, etc. For the other builders I recommend you put this site in your favorites folder and use it often. It is a great resource.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/index.php

Tom - I do not have a weight for primer and paint but my understanding is powder coat adds 3 pounds. My fuselage will be weighed before my powder coat (primer powder coat followed by topcoat) and that will give us a more accurate number at least for the process used on my fuselage. Thanks for the encouragement

Pete - things I am doing to reduce the weight of the firewall forward. Tapered fin cyls, Pmags, skullcap spinner, B&C 8 amp (so removing alternator pulley and lightening ring gear), thrustline built in (royality will be paid to Mark E.), no swing out mount, Titanium Firewall, Electronic master solenoid, AL cover plates, Carbon fiber cowling, battery?, Catto prop etc.
When all is said and done it will be lighter, firewall forward, than the original 0-320 with the heavy generators, starters, and Borer prop. Lots of folks feel the original Cub is the benchmark for performance and I do not disagree. Mine will be lighter than that, firewall forward. But all these things can now also be done to the 0-320 so I will not be lighter than an updated 0-320 package but I will be lighter than the original 0-320 package. I will end up near the forward CG limit when empty which should work out OK as the CG will be further aft when loaded for trips. More on this issue later.

Hope this helps

Bill

aktango58
01-07-2012, 10:13 AM
Bill,

a forward CG is easy to fix, aft is hard to deal with. For a forward one, just put your address book with all the folks you need to visit in the back, and it will be cured!:-P

Keep up the scale work, I will buy you some batteries when I see you next, I am following your lead on some of the weight stuff!

Max Torque
01-07-2012, 11:21 AM
I've heard elsewhere that if there isn't a blast tube directed onto the PMag, it'll overheat. Soon as I get the bucks, I'll be ordering a PMag. Until then, I'm in the process of converting my Bendix mags to 8.5 mm super condutor auto plug wires. Plan to use NGK AB6 and AB-7 spark plugs which are supposed to be the correct heat range/size and supposed to screw right in in place of REM38 & REM40. We shall see...

Max Torque
01-07-2012, 11:25 AM
Thanks for the update, Bill.
Really enjoying your posts!

FdxLou
01-07-2012, 01:32 PM
I've heard elsewhere that if there isn't a blast tube directed onto the PMag, it'll overheat. Soon as I get the bucks, I'll be ordering a PMag. Until then, I'm in the process of converting my Bendix mags to 8.5 mm super conductor auto plug wires. Plan to use NGK AB6 and AB-7 spark plugs which are supposed to be the correct heat range/size and supposed to screw right in in place of REM38 & REM40. We shall see...

I have over 1000 hours on my Pmags....they are the current (and last?) version 114. The internal electronics will not tolerate continued high heat (over 230-250F) for very long. Blast tubes are a must. High oil temp (over 220F) and no blast tubes will eventually cause them to shut down. Manufacturer says they shut down at 250F internal temp to prevent permanent failure.... and begin to function again when they cool down. Highly modified engines that run hot are not a good fit for the Pmags, imho.

I run the auto plug inserts along with NGK BR8eix iridium plugs (http://www.amazon.com/NGK-BR8EIX-Iridium-Spark-4-Pack/dp/B004RT4PMO) . The non iridium last about 40-50 hrs before needing to re gap...and another 40-50 and will need replacing. I got 450 hrs out of my last set. I have 9.5 to 1 comp so a hotter (BR7) plug is not advised. The BR9 is too cold.

Lou

Check Six
01-07-2012, 03:04 PM
Lou - Thanks for the info.

Any noticable performance difference between new iridium & new non-iridium plugs?

Thanks,

Tom

mvivion
01-07-2012, 04:26 PM
Bill,

On your wing choice: I think you'll find that the extended squared off wings also work better getting off the water when on floats. Wing and power are what make float planes launch.

MTV

Bill Rusk
01-07-2012, 04:59 PM
Maxtorque - Yes I have also heard that blast tubes on the Pmags are good but I kinda feel that is true of all mags. Heat and electrics, of pretty much any kind, don't go well together. I had blast tubes on my bendix mags on the last plane and would put them in again on any mags. I have heard that heat has been a problem on the lightspeed ignition as well. So..... cool all your ignition systems.

Thanks Mike. That jives with other info I am getting. I had a nice visit with Kase yesterday. As you may know he has flown a LOT of cubs and I think just about all the Dakota wings, slots, slats and everything else, and usually in the mountains. He had an opportunity to fly with a friend and the only difference between their planes was the extended wings. About the same weight and both with 160hp. He said up to 3000' there was pretty much no difference in T.O, climb, or landing. But when they got to 5000' there was a noticeable difference with the edge going to the square wing, and at 8000' the difference was huge in T.O and also climb. 8000' seems like a lot but as you know you can see 8000' density altitude pretty easy in the mountains in the summer.
The feedback I am getting is that the standard flap with the extended aileron is the best combination. The extended flap and standard aileron seems to be a little sluggish in roll. Plus with the standard flaps (extended into the fuselage) it will also make it easier to convert to the Keller flaps in the future (probable future upgrade).

Thanks for the feedback

Bill

aktango58
01-07-2012, 06:53 PM
Alierons to the wing tips, which ever tips you choose. round tips are very nice to have in brush, but you do get more lift form big wings...

I like round tips!

tempdoug
01-07-2012, 08:05 PM
Bill, are you going with a square or round carb heat box and square or round lower cowl airfilter? Now that were into squares and rounds.

musket
01-07-2012, 10:01 PM
Bill, above you mentioned a number of things you were going to do to cut down on weight FWF:

"Pete - things I am doing to reduce the weight of the firewall forward. Tapered fin cyls, Pmags, skullcap spinner, B&C 8 amp (so removing alternator pulley and lightening ring gear), thrustline built in (royality will be paid to Mark E.), no swing out mount, Titanium Firewall, Electronic master solenoid, AL cover plates, Carbon fiber cowling, battery?, Catto prop etc."

If you are able, would you please provide info on the 'thrustline built in (royalty will be paid to Mark E.)'?

Also on the electronic master solenoid?

Thanks for all your efforts -- your telling about them are of great benefit to those of us following in your footsteps!

Andy Mutzig

Bill Rusk
01-07-2012, 10:33 PM
Tempdog - Round, like my last Cub. Supposed to flow more air. I don't know if it has ever been tested on a dyno so take it for what it is worth.



Andy

Mark Englerth came up with the idea to change the thrustline of the Supercub. He invested a considerable amount of time and money to get the STC for this VERY worthwhile modification. With a certified cub, in order to be legal, you must get the Thrustline Kit from Mark with the associated STC. The spacers used to push the bottom of the motor mount outward and thus the front of the engine up, are beautifully machined and weigh about a pound each.
Some of the experimental builders have incorporated his idea by building a motor mount which includes the new Thrustline angles. This is lighter and better but it cuts Mark out of receiving compensation for his idea. I can't speak for all the Supercub Kit companies but I know that Javron pays Mark a certain agreed upon amount for each motor mount that incorporates Mark's Thrustline modification. Here is a link to Marks Thrustline website.

http://thrustline.com/expect.htm

Here is a link to a new Master Solenoid by Ztron Labs. This will save 11 ounces from the standard master solenoid.

http://www.ZtronLabs.com/products.php

Hope this helps

Bill

Steve Pierce
01-08-2012, 01:16 AM
I heard that the Breaden Cub had some really high engine temps once some engine instruments were installed. Wouldn't let the failure of a one off, highly modified experimental make up my mind. Talked to a lot of folks running them without any problems.

skywagon8a
01-08-2012, 06:46 AM
I've heard elsewhere that if there isn't a blast tube directed onto the PMag, it'll overheat.

The P-mag manual specifically says that blast tubes must be installed, with instructions as to where to aim them. http://www.emagair.com/Manual%20LC114v20.pdf

Tango Cub
01-08-2012, 10:23 AM
Hi Bill
I stoped in at Javron yesterday your fuselage is looking good 'almost done' I am curious to see what it weighs compared to a stock cub. Jay has quite a shop there i can see he is a perfectionist by looking at his shop and parts. A very nice guy. I picked up some parts for my cub I'm hoping to get my fuselage covered sometime this spring unlike your cub I'm adding weight all over it, third seat stc tail beef up, gross weight increase, large extended baggage. It will be a good work horse. Now if I can just loose all the weight I'm adding to my cub. Bryan

tcraft128
01-08-2012, 08:05 PM
We used the 1" flanges that come from Vans for the blast tubes and a piece of a pterodactyl ultralight for our setup.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a104/s13det/100_3190.jpg

Bill Rusk
01-08-2012, 09:30 PM
Tangocub

Thanks for the report. I'm starting to get fired up.

Tcraft - Looks great. That is exactly what I did on my last one for the blast tubes.

Bill

Superchub
01-08-2012, 10:58 PM
Well.....Lord willing I am supposed to travel North on Jan the 18th and pick up all the weldments. Basically everything except the wings. It took a little longer than I hoped for but I am still very pleased with all my transactions with Jay and Javron. I know he has hired three welders since I ordered my kit as he is ramping up production. He had several kits in front of mine and he has at least 13 fuselages behind me. So get ready for lots of post and pictures.

Engine - After GREAT consideration and lost sleep I have decided to go with the 0-360 series. It will cost about 18 pounds on the nose not including the prop.
The deciding factor was a recently surfaced memory of my ill fated trip wherein I discovered the ABSOLUTE ceiling of my cub (loaded pretty heavy and on floats) was 10,200 feet on a cool day. Approaching Great Falls, Montana I could not go over the ridgeline but had to go South through the Rogers Pass then back North to Seeley Lake. I did not have the option to go over the mountains at 9500' because I was falling out of the sky at 10K. I think the 0-360 will help in that regard, and though I much prefer the look of the traditional round wingtip, the extended wing seems to really "work" at the higher altitudes and weights, thus I am rethinking my wing choice as well. This is, for me, a big part of the mission for the airplane....floats and mountain lakes. I will still be shooting for a empty weight of 1100 pds. Gonna be tough but if you can't handle the heat ........

Mark Rusche (MMR here) has been over lately working on his PA12 and last week we did a little more weighing.
On the Smithcub I used 1/16 2024 and contact cemented a heavy tweed fabric to it to do the interior. I really liked the look and "feel" of this but it did add some weight.
Here is a picture

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/Interior2.jpg
1 Sq ft of 1/16 AL weighs 3.75 oz
plus cement weighs 4.72
plus fabric weighs 6.75 oz total
So 6.75 oz per square foot of interior panels. If we figure (roundly) that the baggage compartment is 2'X4' on the sides and 2'X2' on the back we get 20 square feet of area = 8.437 pounds in Fabric, or 5.3 pounds in .040 Kydex. So I can save 3 pounds in the baggage compartment area if I use Kydex. And even more if I use .028 Kydex. I like the look and feel of the fabric interior and will probably still use it in the cockpit area even at the expense of some weight. I know that no interior is the lightest and that works for some folks, (cool, go for it,) but for me I prefer a little more refined interior. But nonetheless I just found 3 pounds.

So that is where I am......waiting for the 18th.......like a kid waiting for Santa........

Thanks for asking

Bill

Bill have you considered FLOCK? Donjer products.

I love the look and Feels like fabric and I don't know the weight difference but It is very light...4946
It is what I used on the Chub.

skywagon8a
01-09-2012, 06:51 AM
Many years ago, while I was working for Sikorsky, I saw a honey combed core floorboard which was being installed on the S-61. It was extremely rugged and light. The honey comb material seemed to be just aluminum foil which was bonded to a dimpled aluminum outer surface. I wonder if any of this material is available today? It would make good floorboards. I did see Igor walking through the plant once. He has been one of my idols ever since.

Bill Rusk
01-09-2012, 07:42 AM
Flocking. Hmmmmm Interesting. Here is a link to the website

http://www.donjer.com/

Same weight for the AL, probably the same for the glue, but it might be a little lighter than the fabric. Hard to say. Neat idea and I'll look into it more. Thanks.

Pete - I will be using a honeycomb floorboard material. Still trying to get that lined up. When I do I will post the info here. Used it last time and it saved about 10 pounds Vs plywood. Great stuff but there are probably 30 or 40 different varieties and finding the perfect type can be challenging. Once I nail it down I expect that Jay at Javron will be selling it and also offering precut floorboards as well. At least, that is the plan. I should have that squared away in a week or two. The type I used last time is no longer available.

Bill

tempdoug
01-09-2012, 08:33 AM
Dosent boeing have some kind of a surplus store in Seattle that sells the stuff?

pittsdriver
01-09-2012, 11:02 AM
Bill, If you are going to use ECI cylinders make sure you have very tight baffles. I used a Van's RV7 baffle kit and have no problem with cyl head or oil temps even on a hot day with an AeroSport Power ECI O-320. The ECI cyls will run around 20* hotter than a Lycoming or Superior as a rule. Don

kevin
01-09-2012, 01:06 PM
Dosent boeing have some kind of a surplus store in Seattle that sells the stuff?


No. Boeing closed this down several years ago. They do all of their selling via online auctions now. You have to check perodically to see what they have. Could be anything from an old type writer to a metal building they no longer need.

MainlandCub
01-09-2012, 01:29 PM
Tempdog - Round, like my last Cub. Supposed to flow more air. I don't know if it has ever been tested on a dyno so take it for what it is worth.

Bill

Bill,

Have you toted up the difference in weight; strikes me the round type would be a bit heavier; more aluminium for the cowl, the dome, the stinger to support the filter.... and the filter?

Andrew.

jgerard
01-09-2012, 02:28 PM
A square filter is much lighter than the round and it's faster to remove the bottom cowl and I would run the paper type Donaldson air filter for the cleanest air with the least restriction

The inlet size on the air box is actually smaller on a round filter only about a 1.75 x 3.5 opening and the square filter has the entire 5x7 or so inlet. They both neck down to the same size plenum for the carb heat flapper. I think the round filter came about as a way to increase the filter area more than anything. I think the round filters started in 55' as an option with the 150hp Ag cubs.

When using an O-360 with the center sump mount carb things get a little different and the round is probably the best way to go. I think the PenYan type lower cowl and air filter is the better design. I couldn't find any pics in 3 min of google searching for the round filter air boxes.




4957

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/donaldAirFilter.php




Jason

T.J.
01-09-2012, 03:25 PM
Info from Piper Parts Book.....
The round air filter was used on 150 HP, S/N 18-6964 and up, Code F, not used on seaplanes

MainlandCub
01-10-2012, 04:19 AM
A square filter is much lighter than the round and it's faster to remove the bottom cowl and I would run the paper type Donaldson air filter for the cleanest air with the least restriction

The inlet size on the air box is actually smaller on a round filter only about a 1.75 x 3.5 opening and the square filter has the entire 5x7 or so inlet. They both neck down to the same size plenum for the carb heat flapper. I think the round filter came about as a way to increase the filter area more than anything. I think the round filters started in 55' as an option with the 150hp Ag cubs.

When using an O-360 with the center sump mount carb things get a little different and the round is probably the best way to go. I think the PenYan type lower cowl and air filter is the better design. I couldn't find any pics in 3 min of google searching for the round filter air boxes.




4957

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/donaldAirFilter.php




Jason

The Donaldson filter for the Super Cub is the P10-7150, which is also the one for the Cessna 150. The Donaldson filter for the Cessna 172 is the P10-7172 (if I recall correctly) which is quite a bit bigger than the P10-7150. I have often thought about using this filter for an experimental to provide less restricted airflow.

I don't particularly like the look of the round filter on Cubs and as weight is a big topic on this thread was wondering how much heavier it was.

Andrew.

musket
01-12-2012, 10:55 AM
Hi Bill,

Thanks for the reply re: the thrustline mount and the Ztron solenoid.

"Some of the experimental builders have incorporated his idea by building a motor mount which includes the new Thrustline angles. This is lighter and better but it cuts Mark out of receiving compensation for his idea. I can't speak for all the Supercub Kit companies but I know that Javron pays Mark a certain agreed upon amount for each motor mount that incorporates Mark's Thrustline modification."

I'll check out the JAVRON mount, as I like their policy towards Mark E.

The question arises (in my mind, anyway) as to whether it's best to go with a standard mount and the Thrustline kit, or a mount modified to incorporate the changed engine angle? If somehow the engine mount gets bent, I'd presume it's easier (and quicker), to get a standard mount rather than a modified one.
Any thoughts on that?

Thanks again,

Andy

Bill Rusk
01-12-2012, 03:15 PM
Andy

My general feeling is that if you have damaged the motor mount you have probably damaged the engine and prop. I don't think you will see a quick fix so you will have time to get a new mount built up. Javron mounts are built up in a jig and can be replicated exactly and quickly, as I am sure would be true from the major players like, Atlee, Airframes, Dakota, etc. It does save weight to have the thrustline mod built in. I do not know how much weight at this point. I may have a number in the future.
Don, Andrew, Jason and TJ - thanks for the inputs. Will research carb air boxes and filters more.

Hope this helps

Bill

Bugs66
01-20-2012, 11:54 PM
Hey folks, Bill was down last year but as you can see from this photo I received, he is by no way out. Won't be long now! 8)

5146

Cubus Maximus
01-21-2012, 12:48 AM
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/512/DSC2089.jpg

Cub junkie
01-21-2012, 12:58 AM
Good thing that thing is shrink wrapped. I think they are having some nasty wx in the chicago area. What an exciting feeling to be coming home with a new project. I bought some Javron parts recently, excellent quality and quick shipping.

fobjob
01-21-2012, 01:16 AM
Attaboy, Bill!!!

BuckWynd
01-21-2012, 01:38 AM
Bill,

Congrats on getting a new start! I truly look forward to helping you get the new plane airworthy this year, and seeing you head north on your long-awaited Alaska adventure.

I'm sure you'll always rememeber today's long drive home, in the snow, with your fuselage strapped to your truck! Could you BE more dramatic? :lol:

Greg Campbell
01-21-2012, 06:32 AM
I need one of those for my truck. Another Rusk Built. Congrats Bill.

SJ
01-21-2012, 08:00 AM
Bill, You need a camera on that truck pointing at the people watching you drive by... It would make for good video :) "What the heck?"

Bill, you are truly an inspiration to us all!

sj

Tim
01-21-2012, 08:11 AM
Great, I wish I lived closer, so I could watch you work

Steve Pierce
01-21-2012, 08:32 AM
Awesome Bill, I bet you had some funny looks.I wonder how many people knew what was on topof your truck. Can't wait to see it go together.

jaypratt
01-21-2012, 10:24 AM
Bill,

CAROL AND I ARE LOOKING FWD TO COMING UP TO "HELP" THIS SUMMER

kevin
01-21-2012, 10:35 AM
Can't wait to see it go together.

Me too Bill. Good on you!!!!

KG

Iflylower
01-21-2012, 10:42 AM
Awesome Bill, you're Rollin now!

Remember, no McDonald's drive through' or ATM's. Better just walk in with that tall load8)

tempdoug
01-21-2012, 11:23 AM
Will sutton exhaust fit with the square filter?

Bill Rusk
01-21-2012, 07:24 PM
Thanks folks for all the kind words. Made it home safely at about 2 am. I had to plow my driveway at that hour (I'm sure my neighbors loved that) just to get my truck out of the street. MMR and Jim came over today and helped me unload everything. We weighed EVERYTHING, as we checked it off the packing list. I am VERY VERY pleased with my Javron experience. Awesome craftsmanship and attention to detail. Brad (Cubus maximus) came by while we were loading up and took some great photos that I will share soon. Lots to share and I will just as soon as I have a moment. I am really fired up, and very pleased.

Bill

Bill Rusk
01-22-2012, 09:23 AM
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000221.jpg
Part of the machine shop that is Javron. Jay DeRosier, owner and maker of my kit. The Javron Cub.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000231.jpg

Jay taking another order. Note the airplane prints on the wall. This guy is an airplane nut.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000025.jpg
The fabrication area in Jays shop. Note the railroad size I beams in the lower right part of the picture. This is the start of a new jig. Jay says they give a stable platform for the jig base. Yea, no kidding.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000031.jpg
Jays PA-12 project. I doubt he has much time to work on it.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000041.jpg
This is how my parts were packed. I was very pleased. Everything was carefully packed and ready for pick up. I brought all kinds of rags, bed sheets, towels, etc for packing but needed very little as Jay had everything ready to go. That was REALLY nice. Attention to detail.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/get-attachment_aspx-3.jpg
After carefully going over the fuselage, Jay (shown here) and I wrapped it in plastic and shrink wrap for the trip home. I was prepared to put it on the truck bare but Jay insisted we wrap it. He says "no way you are going to mess up my fuselage your way home".

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000044.jpg
Jays lovely wife, Cathy, stopped by for a visit while we were wrapping the fuselage. Neat lady. Jay is a Blessed man.


http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000045.jpg
Brad Thornberg, Cubus Maximus, also came by. Brad is a very talented photographer. Go to his album under Cubus Maximus, to see his work. It was really nice to get to visit with him as well on this trip. These photos are mine not his. His would be MUCH better.


http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/get-attachment_aspx.jpg
Me, wrapping the fuselage.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/get-attachment_aspx-2.jpg
The rest of are working and here is Jay laying down on the job.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/get-attachment_aspx-4.jpg
Wrapped and ready to go. Note the look of fear on Jays face. I was heading into a snowstorm to get home.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/get-attachment_aspx-5.jpg
I ain't skeeered.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/get-attachment_aspx-6.jpg
The obligatory handshake photo. Actually, the smiles are from me telling Jay I'll buy another fuselage if I wreck this one on the way home. The trip home was not too bad but semi trucks did really blow me around. I need a bigger, read that heavier, pick-up truck.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000054.jpg
And we're off. A happy camper heading home.

Bill

WindOnHisNose
01-22-2012, 09:38 AM
Hey, Bill, thanks for posting the photos. What a nice endorsement for Javron. It is great to feel your energy as it has returned, Bill. We are blessed to have you around.

Randy

Bill Rusk
01-22-2012, 10:11 AM
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000098.jpg
Home with the fuselage. My fuselage, bare (not on gear as shown) weighed 100.23 pounds prior to powder coating. I used a two step powder coating. First coat was a zinc rich primer. Second coat was paint. Finished weight was 104.95 on Jays scale and 104.50 on my scale. I was pleased that our scales were that close together. So, about 4.5 pounds for primer and paint. Perhaps a non powdercoat job would be lighter but until someone primes and paints (not just primer) and weighs it accurately we do not know. I am very pleased with both the final weight and finish on my fuselage. With all the mods I added I feel we came in very light. The primer step was added at my request and cost. This is not normally done by any other kit manufacturer to my knowledge. Normally they just clean with a phosphoric wash and topcoat. No primer.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000057.jpg
Jay packages the parts nicely.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000058.jpg
Hardware nicely packaged and labeled.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000059.jpg

This is the firewall X brace. I put blue tape on the added tube so you would be able to tell what I am referring to. This tube helps keep the firewall from crushing upwards in a mishap. This mod adds 15.3 oz total for both sides. It's worth it. (disregard the upside down engine mount)

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000060.jpg
The two tubes do not normally touch so I had Jay weld them together for added strength and rigidity.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000611.jpg
Bungee landing gear. The die spring gear weighs 167.22oz, the bungee set up weighs 127.605oz. Saving 39.615oz or 2.45 pounds. Yes, I will have to replace bungees and incur more time and cost over die springs. It is not as good as AOSS but it is MUCH lighter. You will have to decide what works for you. This works for me.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000621.jpg
The Atlee long step, with all mounting hardware, weighs 45.32oz. The Javron long step, with all mounting hardware, weighs 21.010oz.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000063.jpg
Jay bushed the gear leg at my request for the long step. I honestly do not know what all Jay does as standard on his kits. I just went in to him with a list of all the things I wanted and he did it and came up with a total price. I am offering this so folks will not assume that this stuff is standard and then get upset with Javron when they don't get it. Some of the stuff I will present here is standard on his kits and some is not. If you purchase Javron parts or a kit you will need to work that out with Jay.





I am going to try to post all the mods I did and the weights and reasons for each. It takes a lot of time to do this so it may take me a while. Thanks for your patience.

Hope this helps.

Bill

Bill Rusk
01-22-2012, 10:20 AM
This is part of the letter I sent to Jay to get the kit started. It includes most but perhaps not all of the mods on the fuselage. I will try to list out the other stuff we talked about and did verbally to give you a more complete listing of mods. Again some of this stuff is standard (like the reverse dogleg) and some is not. I am not telling you to do this or not. This is just what I did to give folks some ideas and to share the knowledge I have gained from all the awesome folks on this website.


Fuselage

* Narrow body
* Single door, clamshell type, on right side
* Standard “D” windows
* Extended Baggage to rest on lower longerons, thus elevator cables to run below
fuselage
* Dual tail lift handles (slightly heavier than factory and slightly deeper)
* Lower right side baggage door
* Upper right side baggage door
* No trim system components, tabs, guides, or welded on items for any trim related
parts (I will be doing an electric trim, I will need a couple of tabs, I’ll specify)
* Reverse dog leg brace
* Aft Metal Belly – can we do only the last 2 feet verses 4 feet to save a little weight?
* Removable rear crossbar
* Rear Cargo tie-downs – lets talk about this
* Bushing for Tailwheel bolt
* Float fittings – fwd to be Std, aft to be flush( I will get the data)
* Welded in lift rings – like the Smithcub
* Engine mount brace tubes
* Cabin X brace – we may be able to reduce the weight here a little
* Flap handle, move outboard
* ELT antennae mount
* No tabs for the BLR system
* Seat belts attached to tabs on the floor tubes
* I would like to bring my gear up and check it against your jigs to see if it will work,
if so perhaps we can work out a price to bush the tubes for the long step bolts
* Folding front seat


Hope this helps

Bill

Bill Rusk
01-22-2012, 10:57 AM
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000642.jpg
It is a little hard to see in this photo but I had Jay put a lip on the down tubes of the door. This makes a better seal in the winter and also gives a place to tuck the interior panel under thus making a very clean, neat installation that does not get pulled away when a boot is scraped across it when getting in and out of the seat.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000651.jpg
This is the door tube from the inside. The channel is normally a little off the tube. Mine sits on the tube and is extended down a little to allow the interior panel to be slipped under the channel.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000661.jpg
This photo shows the lip better. Jay seals up the door pin hole so that no water can get into the longerons or other structure. Attention to detail. Not everyone does this.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000671.jpg
Note how the door frame gently widens out so that the door frame and the "D" window line up. Makes for a smoother fabric line. This is the attention to detail that Javron does with all his work. This was not my idea but just the way he does things.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000722.jpg

This bracket is for the rear shoulder harness. Since I will be doing a fabric headliner I had to add in this to keep the harness from ripping the fabric. I did not get a weight on this but probably 1.5 oz. My mod due to the fabric headliner I plan to do. The hooks are for a cargo net. I have seen them mounted on the tube that goes between the rear wing attach fittings but that puts them too far forward so that if you have a rear seat pax the cargo net will be literally pushing on his head. Mine are installed so that the net will angle down behind the rear seat and not interfere with a passenger. Weight 1.2 oz for both.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000071.jpg
Another photo of the cargo hooks.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000701.jpg
The blue tape highlights the junction between the upper cargo door and the birdcage structure. Jay left a gap for me to wrap the fabric for the headliner, they are normally welded together. He also extended the edge of the horizontal "C" channel (in blue) for the fabric to attach to. Weight less than 1 oz. Note the upper right door corner to structure has a small tab welded in for rigidity.

More later

Hope this helps

Bill

Dave Calkins
01-22-2012, 12:57 PM
Bill, I want to bring attention to the nice big upper baggage door..looks like it goes "2 ginger bread frames" aft. Can we get a photo of it??

I've been thinking about a large, 2 ginger bread frames-long upper baggage door for some time. The gPeppard gang have had HUGE upper baggage doors on their -12's, and it is a worthwhile mod.

Thanks for your efforts.

mongo
01-22-2012, 06:25 PM
Wow, it came precovered ready for paint......

Iflylower
01-22-2012, 08:51 PM
Wow Bill, you're flying now! It'll be done in no time. Plus, you have the experience to do it well and fast.

Looks fun; makes me want to do another one.

You should grab all your tail feathers and bring em down to Pierces' for the seminar and cover em. It'd be a good refresher and you could bring them home covered and even painted.

Congrats on the big start. When will the wings be ready to put together?

kevin
01-22-2012, 08:52 PM
Very, Very nice Bill. I like the detail he puts into his frames. If I was building an experimental PA-18, I would talk to him. After seeing his work in person and speaking with him, It would be hard to pass him up.

DW
01-23-2012, 02:03 PM
Ok Bill I got my suitcase packed let get crackin.

Bill Rusk
01-23-2012, 04:20 PM
Jay and Carol - Careful what you offer cause I'm planning to take you up on that offer. It will be fun. You can fly the Hatz on your breaks. :lol:

DW - See ya soon

Dave - I took more pictures of the upper baggage compartment for you but left the disc at home. I'll post them when I get back home


I ordered my engine today from Bart at Aerosport Power. It will be a rebuild as opposed to a new ECI or Superior build up. 0-360 with 8.5 to one, early 60's wide deck conical case, hollow crank with the cut out flange, Lyc nitrided cyls, new Superior sump, Dual Pmags, B&C 8 amp Alt, Flywheel pulley machined off, and Bart blueprinting magic. Yahoo......

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000741.jpg
I decided to go with two independent inertial shoulder harness reels. Thus getting rid of the neck pinch shoulder harness inherent in the "Y" shaped harness. Extra tab weighs 1.4 oz. The extra reel will also add some weight. This should make the front seat shoulder harness much more comfortable.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000076.jpg
Dual reels necessitates moving this tube back a little so it does not squeeze the harness back together thus negating the purpose of the dual reel set up.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000075.jpg
This is the cabin "X" brace everyone talks about. It is normally 7/8 tubing. I felt this was overkill and we reduced the tubing size to 3/4. Saved 4.51oz. The factory had one 7/8 tube. By putting in the second tube and making the "X" you effectively cut the "Beam" in half which significantly increases the strength in compressive failure. Thus we don't really need to stay with 7/8 tubes.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000078.jpg

I intend to lengthen the bottom of the stick 3/4 inch. This causes interference with the bottom stringer. So we terminated the stringer and built a small box. This will give both clearance and also a place for an access plate. This gives more aileron travel per associated stick input.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000791.jpg
Another view of the torque tube/stick box.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000077.jpg
These are the tabs that the seat base bolts into. We extended these about 1/2 inch higher so the seat bolt will not end up half under the floor boards making the seat really hard to remove.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000080.jpg
My extended baggage floor will rest on the lower longerons so I could either build a tunnel for the elevator cables or run them under the floor. These are the pulley brackets that will allow my cables to run under the floor. This mod saves the weight of building the "shelf" for the extended baggage. I did not get a weight from Jay but will try to do so.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000081.jpg
The cables go in the hole and the stringer goes on the bottom.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000082.jpg
Brackets for the cargo net tie down rings. 1 oz and 1.2 oz.

Bill Rusk
01-23-2012, 04:57 PM
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000831.jpg
ELT antennae mount

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000841.jpg
Mounting brackets for electric trim. 2.055oz for both. Trim motor weight 14.995 and coupler weighs 1oz
total trim weight back here 18.05 including nuts and bolts.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000851.jpg
Tabs for the trip cut out switches. .967oz

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000086.jpg
Second tail lift handle. 1.750oz

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000871.jpg
Box tail brace. 6.1 oz. This can also be done in an "X" shape and or an "H" shape. I doubt it makes much difference structurally.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000088.jpg
Brackets welded in to allow a place to bolt in lead weights to adjust CG. The liner tubes in this area were extended 6" to strengthen this area. Liner tube extensions = 4.45oz and brackets = 4.55oz.
Most cubs with 0-360 (and even 0-320's) are at the forward edge of the CG limit when empty with just pilot and fuel. The way we most often fly them. The airplane handles and flies much better when the CG is near the aft limit. You can load a bunch of gear in the baggage compartment to try to get the CG further aft but now you are 200 pds heavier ( and all that weight will slide forward when braking hard), or you can drop 20 pounds in the tail. It is great being experimental. Certified guys can't do this type of stuff. Guys that have built and flown model airplanes will understand the significance of the CG on handling.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000089.jpg
Water rudder bracket tabs. Flush mounted to clean up the fuselage and lower longerons.
No weight on these. Will try to get it.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000901.jpg
Another shot of the water rudder bracket.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000911.jpg
Tabs for extended baggage floor ( not all are marked)

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000092.jpg
Float lift ring brackets.

More later

Bill

tcraft128
01-23-2012, 05:09 PM
http://www.skydynamics.com/frame.htm

Check out the magnesium flywheels. They are already setup for no pulley.

kevin
01-23-2012, 06:04 PM
Hey Bill, You have really done your homework on this project. Every post you have been making, I say to myself, that is a good idea. I didn't think there was anything else to be done because I thought that you had touched on everything..until I see your next post. What else is there to improve on? I guess I will have to wait and see. The hard part for me is trying to keep up on all this stuff. You are going to have a very nice little plane and I hope to see it someday!

Olibuilt
01-23-2012, 07:56 PM
Wow Bill! Very nice fuselage. Keep posting pics with weight. It really helps for a guy like me building my first plane.

Bill Rusk
01-23-2012, 08:16 PM
Thanks Kevin. I'm still learning.


http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000952.jpg
Dave, perhaps this picture will help. This is the upper baggage door frame. Note the lip on the inside edge. Helps keep water out when flying through the rain. Rather than just one turtle deck former size this is 1.5 formers. Bigger is better but in my case the upper baggage area will not be stressed for heavy stuff but mostly engine and wing covers for winter flying. It is also much easier to access while camping so makes a good place to put stuff you want to get to often. A lock on the door is also handy for valuables.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000094.jpg
We made the frame from open "C" channel so I could put nutplates in to attach interior panels to.
Tough to see in this photo.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000096.jpg
On a certified cub this piece is done with stringer material and it can create a bulge here. Jay welds in this piece and insets it on the center tube so that the fabric flows better.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000093.jpg
Normal cub has two tabs here. I figured one was enough. My last kit had none and that was a little awkward.

I'll post some more later in the week.


By the way, Javron also makes both the round and square carburetor air boxes and they are very nice and reasonably priced.

Bill

Super11XP
01-23-2012, 08:39 PM
Hi Bill, I just measured and weighed the standard Lycoming sump and also the Superior cold air sump. Superior:11 lbs 4 oz Lycoming:11 lbs even
The Superior sump is 6 1/4 inches tall and the lycoming sump is 4 7/8" You may want to consider going with the Lycoming sump so that you can get a standard cowling on it. You will also have more options on exhaust ect...

Bill Rusk
01-23-2012, 08:53 PM
Clint

Thanks. I will check on that

Bill

Dave Calkins
01-23-2012, 08:53 PM
Bill, thanks for the photos. great Stuff!

Whatcha gonna do fer where yer RUDDER CABLES go through the baggage area?? I'm skeered 'a some cargo pinching 'em.

I've run them inside a plastic housing in this area. Have been thinking on the next airplane also running the ELEVATOR CABLES under the floor inside plastic housing also....negating the use of pulleys or pulley brackets under the floor.

Will be interested in how your engine shapes up. Way to go..on the lyc. cylinders, I think. Not sure if I could hold the build at 8.5 to 1 Compression Ratio....having tasted the "energy drink":)

skywagon8a
01-24-2012, 06:50 AM
[QUOTE=Bill Rusk;525508]Most cubs with 0-360 (and even 0-320's) are at the forward edge of the CG limit when empty with just pilot and fuel. The way we most often fly them. The airplane handles and flies much better when the CG is near the aft limit. You can load a bunch of gear in the baggage compartment to try to get the CG further aft but now you are 200 pds heavier ( and all that weight will slide forward when braking hard), or you can drop 20 pounds in the tail. It is great being experimental. Certified guys can't do this type of stuff. Guys that have built and flown model airplanes will understand the significance of the CG on handling.[QUOTE]

Thanks for bring this up Bill. I have been beating this drum for years and it seemingly has fallen on deaf ears. Even the certified guys can do this with minor properly worded paperwork.

Olibuilt
01-24-2012, 07:18 AM
5179














Is this tab only for holding the wing root interior finish??

Steve Pierce
01-24-2012, 07:59 AM
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000078.jpg

I intend to lengthen the bottom of the stick 3/4 inch. This causes interference with the bottom stringer. So we terminated the stringer and built a small box. This will give both clearance and also a place for an access plate. This gives more aileron travel per associated stick input.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10000791.jpg
Another view of the torque tube/stick box.

Wayne Mackey told me about boxing under the rear stick where the aileron cables attach some years ago. I build it to fit a stock Piper inspection plate like is on the covering drawing. Another advantage to it is that it acts as a dam to keep stuff from rolling underneath and getting jambed in the bellcrank and you don't have to work around the stringer when installing hardware etc.

Great pictures and ideas Bill. Why not do a "V" structure rather than an "X" in the top deck? Most of the later designs incorporated the "V".

tempdoug
01-24-2012, 08:34 AM
Oli, if there not covered a lot of special sized baggage will fit in those holes. I also have a plastic container that fits in there real nice. Saves alot of fumblin around.

Iflylower
01-24-2012, 08:40 AM
Bill, I love that frame. I've been pouring over your details, I like the adjustments. Very well thought out, and narrow body to boot. Perfection!

Dave Calkins
01-24-2012, 12:56 PM
Bill, what are you doing for an extended baggage?

Definitely see about the Randy Apling baggage. Your being a 'weight-weeny' on all this stuff, you should be able to appreciate it.

..love the inside ELT antenna. Husky's have that, and it's good.

SteveP., I dunno about the "v". I want to truly "box", that area by crossing. If you 'V' that bay, you have to make a choice whether you can accept the forward 'spar carry-thru' or rear 'spar carry-thru' to deform. ......in my thinking.

Bill, 2 inertia reels for shoulder-harness? Hmmm?

Dave Calkins
01-24-2012, 01:03 PM
PS, did you think out the rudder cables sheathing, or some other idea?

I am impressed with the super-increased level of thought that this WEbsite has brought out in the SuperCub community since it's inception. Truly, the community is 200 percent better-informed than it was 5 to 8 years ago.

Your sharing this stuff in the manner you have will heighten the spread of that knowledge and thought. Again, Thank You for sharing, again:).

Steve Pierce
01-24-2012, 01:58 PM
SteveP., I dunno about the "v". I want to truly "box", that area by crossing. If you 'V' that bay, you have to make a choice whether you can accept the forward 'spar carry-thru' or rear 'spar carry-thru' to deform. ......in my thinking.


I think the "X" brace is a fix for the original design. The Pacer, Tri-Pacer and the Husky all used a "V" and those designs came later after the J3 and Super Cub. I have a "V" braced airplane here that hit the ground so the wing is flat from the aileron to the fuel tank. Cabin is in tact. With the "X" you still have a long span between attach fittings even though part of those compression loads are being transferred through the "X".

Dave Calkins
01-24-2012, 02:51 PM
So maybe it's all about that bay "racking" instead of my concern for buckling of the aft carry-thru since the "V" centers on that carry thru??

Strange to me, but also, unrelated, is that every Husky I've seen that went upside down has had the top-deck deform, but I've seen lots of SuperCub's that went on their backs and NOT all of them have deformed. I dunno! D

Greg Campbell
01-24-2012, 07:10 PM
Bill, what are the first five or six steps you will do once you begin building up your Cub? I need to develope an order of construction on paper like most of you builders all have in you heads. Thanks. Greg

Bill Rusk
01-24-2012, 09:36 PM
Dave

The rudder cables will be boxed kinda like this..............

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000032.jpg

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000034.jpg





Regarding the engine - I would love to do 10 or 11 to 1 compression ratio but I am concerned about the future cost of Avgas. I am not so worried about availability (I think there are enough rich folks flying pistons to keep it going) but the cost may go to 8 to 10 dollars a gallon. If autogas is near 3 dollars a gallon that just makes "high compression" too expensive for me. Plus my mission (hopefully) will be on floats where avgas may not be available. Bart will still do everything else to the engine. The only thing lacking from all the big hot rod motors will be compression ratio and 20 pounds.

I definitely agree with the advancement of the SC community via this website. All these ideas came from SC.org and folks like you, TJ, Crash, StewartB, Kase, DW, Skup, Olsen, Peppard, Pierce, Mackey, Keller, etc etc.

Olibuilt - Yes that is just to attach a cover panel. It does make a nice cubby if you desire.

Steve - I did in fact consider the "V" brace but felt that a 1.5' beam would be stronger than a 3' beam. Further the "V"was going to interfere with the shoulder harness installation. I am no engineer, that's for sure, so the "V" may be stronger. I don't know. I thought it was done to open up the attic and to provide more headroom for the pilot, rather than structural.

Greg - 1 inventory and weigh everything. Once you start to assemble things you can't weigh them unless you
disassemble.
2 Check fit. Tail feathers, Trim, gear etc. You are just looking for the bigger issues now so parts can be re-welded
if necessary.
3 Make all the interior panels
4 Get trim installed and working
5 install controls, brakes, etc (remove for covering)

There is a lot to do and sometimes it has to be done in order and sometimes it just has to be done, and order really does not matter.

Thanks for the inputs gents.


Hope this helps

Bill

Nathan K. Hammond
01-25-2012, 01:30 PM
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000088.jpg
Brackets welded in to allow a place to bolt in lead weights to adjust CG.
Bill

It would be neat if, instead of lead weight, mount an aluminum box back there. Add a filler tube at the top and a Curtiss fitting at the bottom. Then you could add and remove water ballast easily as needed.

nkh

cubdriver2
01-25-2012, 02:00 PM
It would be neat if, instead of lead weight, mount an aluminum box back there. Add a filler tube at the top and a Curtiss fitting at the bottom. Then you could add and remove water ballast easily as needed.

nkh

You could hook it up to this and have inflight CG availability

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy21/cubdriver2/littlejohn.jpg

Glenn

Iflylower
01-26-2012, 12:12 AM
You could hook it up to this and have inflight CG availability

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy21/cubdriver2/littlejohn.jpg

Glenn

Wow, a "wet tail," just like the heavies. Can lessen tail down drag and fly longer distances without bathroom breaks. What a combo.

Nate, I didn't know guys were weighting down the tail on purpose. Does it get you in much slower?

Nathan K. Hammond
01-26-2012, 12:33 AM
It has a IO-540 on the front end and tends to run a little nose heavy. Lead in the tail was strictly for CG reasons.

5197

The issue for us; when doing acro/skywriting, ALL the weight is forward. Pilot and 4 full 18gal wing tanks plus pyro on the wing tips for the night shows. We needed the ballast so she would fly and feel 'normal' to the show pilot. But then I go X/C with all the gear and spare smoke oil in the extended baggage which slides the CG to the absolute aft limit, making it a squirrelly bitch on the ground. If it was easy to do, I'd remove the ballast on X/C but it's not practical on our setup.

It sounds like Bill might operate the same way; heavy going in/out of a location, but want it light to play around the local area. Having the option to easily remove ballast without tools or having to 'retrieve' the weight could be a handy option. Opinion only.

nkh

Iflylower
01-26-2012, 12:54 AM
That's Nate. I saw that plane in West Memphis getting fuel, what almost a year ago?

I kept trying to figure it cause te lines just weren't right. Is there a square oversized tail too? It sure climbed out well too.

docstory
01-26-2012, 03:42 AM
Did you intend for the fabric to lay against the fuselage tubing at the lower baggage door? And the box at the torque tube is going to poke out at the corners rather than follow the lines normally created by the fabric stretched from the longeron over the stringer. The upper baggage door frame doesn't look like it's lined up with the turtle deck stringer either.

The cables relocated under the floor is cool.

Indabush
01-26-2012, 12:16 PM
Thanks for taking the time to post pics Bill, very informative.

Dave Calkins
01-26-2012, 12:25 PM
Did you intend for the fabric to lay against the fuselage tubing at the lower baggage door? And the box at the torque tube is going to poke out at the corners rather than follow the lines normally created by the fabric stretched from the longeron over the stringer. The upper baggage door frame doesn't look like it's lined up with the turtle deck stringer either.

The cables relocated under the floor is cool.

That box could be "V'ed" to make the fabric lay properly, maybe we can't see it in the photos.

Looks to me like the upper baggage door frame will lay nicely to the turtledeck stringer, depending on stringer "adjustment".

As to the lower baggage door....I'm not sure I can see the lay you see, but in the first batch of photos, the one that shows the cabin door rear latchpin hole, I believe I can see that the lower baggage door frame is stood off from the diagonal tube and the fabric will lay properly there.

Dave Calkins
01-26-2012, 12:33 PM
I think the Hammond crew have a slick idea with the water ballast tank.

So this will have an aluminum aft-extended baggage?

ron cope
01-27-2012, 12:36 AM
Awsome Bill .You have done such a grate job for the Supercub followers and supercub.org for this thread and thank you personallyas it is a great helpto me .Thank Again. If you are going to be on floats a lot go with the sqare air box asyou can floud the round one in real rough water/my two cents . Good Job Bill and give Jay some credit to. Ron

cubdriver2
01-27-2012, 12:42 AM
Awsome Bill .You have done such a grate job for the Supercub followers and supercub.org for this thread and thank you personallyas it is a great helpto me .Thank Again. If you are going to be on floats a lot go with the sqare air box asyou can floud the round one in real rough water/my two cents . Good Job Bill and give Jay some credit to. Ron

I always wondered this, why do all you float guys use an air filter. I never run one when on floats and have flown in rain so hard that it was running down the floor.

Glenn

Bill Rusk
01-27-2012, 11:19 AM
docstory - Yes the fabric will be on the tubes near the lower baggage door. I will check into the box and fabric on the bottom. The upper baggage door is just right. Jay put a stringer and fabric at that junction prior to welding to make sure the fabric would line up smoothly.

Dave - hmmm interesting idea for water ballast. I know the sailplane guys use it. Unfortunately at 8 pds per gallon it could take as much as 4 gallons back there. Might have sloshing problems and also the size and weight of the container would be issues. Fun to brainstorm new ideas though.

I don't know what the aft baggage will be yet. AL, carbon fiber, Kydex? Weight, and to some extent, appearance will be factors. One of my concerns with Kydex is the lack of rigidity. Wavy sidewalls look cheap. Once you get the Kydex thick enough to get the rigidity it is heavier than other products. It has a lot of great properties and applications, and Mike S. has done great things with it.

Ron - Thank you. If I have not done so please let me take the opportunity to give Jay DeRosier at Javron full credit. Jay is AWESOME. Some of these ideas are mine, and some his, and some are from our collaborations. Jay has been really open to working with me and that is just who he is. He is open to new ideas, weight conscious, customer oriented, and honest. In addition he is really serious about quality as evidenced by this photo of the engine mount welds...........

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000104.jpg


So...........to answer Ron, I can't tell you guys what a pleasure it has been to deal with Jay. I highly recommend him and his company for all your experimental Cub parts and kits.



Did some more weighing.

Smith tail feathers .......Vert stab - 2.5pds
Rudder - 5.25
Horiz stabs - 6.05, 6.10
Elevators - 5.45, 5.30
Total - 30.65pds

Javron Vert stab - 2.00
Rudder - 3.85
Horiz stabs - 4.905, 4.897
Elevators - 4.50, 4.50
Total - 24.652

Javron tail feathers are 6 pounds lighter than the Smithcub (I do not know about the current Backcountry). Jay did not do anything special, he just built them according to the Piper drawings. He does add a little to the inboard rib to prevent the fabric from pulling it in.

Hope this helps

Bill

mike mcs repair
01-27-2012, 11:53 AM
wow, hadn't looked at this thread in a while, you moving along.... I wish certified had all those nice hardware kits(we have some but they are usually not what I want)...

2 things I saw might need checking...

top tube on tail box, usually is not on top of box where yours shows, or it hits bottom elevator cable.. or did you put box in different location?

on the elevator cables bellow floor thingys.. will you be adding some form of rub blocks to them?? maybe a piece of ski bottom UHMW plastic with a hole in it for cables riveted to front sides.... I would think over time those will sag and rub????

as to the kydex... with some of the new rolls/multiple grove rolls It does really add some good stiffness..... But being that you have gone to all that work to save weight, I would think bare hard 2024T3 .016 aluminum would be best for your theme, if it gets dirty you can whip out a new set from the old patterns in part of a day....
looking good

Dave Calkins
01-27-2012, 12:25 PM
...like I said about the weight of your extended baggage......if you want to save weight, your only choice is carbon. To clean it, you can spray the garden hose back there and let it run out the scupper........of course, the fabric 'grommet' for the scupper exit in the belly fabric will add weight..:)

Bugs66
01-27-2012, 12:28 PM
......In addition he is really serious about quality as evidenced by this photo of the engine mount welds...........


Wow, impressive and top notch!

Bill Rusk
01-27-2012, 01:18 PM
Smithcub (widebody) instrument panel blank - 22.755oz

Javron (narrow body) instrument panel blank - 12.315oz

Not really apples to apples but that is 10oz. If I can find 10oz ten times that is 6.25 pounds. It all adds up.
The difference between the narrow body and wide body is not just in the fuselage. It is also in the floorboards, windshield, skylight, boot cowl, gear, etc. If you need it and want it....cool....build your perfect airplane......but if you don't need it........it does add weight.


Bill

jgerard
01-27-2012, 01:27 PM
For extended baggage I also would suggest .016 alum but go with 6061-T6. Reason is you can bend the edge over on it's self 180 deg to give a nice radius finish and stiffen up the panel. Honestly I bet it would take years of recreational flying to beat them to crap before you needed to replace them and making new ones would be easy- heck just make 2 sets the first time!

You need the weight in the back, It's so much faster to build them from Alum, and it's cheaper!

If you don't want the look of bare alum then make a light weight cover to separate the front and rear baggage area for day to day use.

Regardless of what you use I would put 1/16" self adhesive cork tape on the frame where the floor and sides touch the tubing as a buffer.


Jason

Minaki
01-27-2012, 03:19 PM
For those of you interested in a wide body my Javron single door, no extended baggage weighed 115.8 pounds. I concur with Bill, Jay is a great guy to work with and his product is top notch.

Jim

cubdriver2
01-27-2012, 05:05 PM
For extended baggage I also would suggest .016 alum but go with 6061-T6. Reason is you can bend the edge over on it's self 180 deg to give a nice radius finish and stiffen up the panel. Honestly I bet it would take years of recreational flying to beat them to crap before you needed to replace them and making new ones would be easy- heck just make 2 sets the first time!

You need the weight in the back, It's so much faster to build them from Alum, and it's cheaper!

If you don't want the look of bare alum then make a light weight cover to separate the front and rear baggage area for day to day use.

Regardless of what you use I would put 1/16" self adhesive cork tape on the frame where the floor and sides touch the tubing as a buffer.


Jason

I would think that cork would hold moisture against the frame ?

Glenn

Bill Rusk
01-27-2012, 05:12 PM
Jim

Great info. That is just what we need. Thanks for sharing.

Bill

ron cope
01-27-2012, 05:30 PM
Hi Bill I have been talking to Jay for a long time even about you and your project and I had all kinds of ideas but aafter seeing your frame i think I will have jay build one for me just like it. I think Wayne at Backcounty is a trim motor that dose not have to have limit sw. About the supercub community being informed today or 5 year ago how in 1968 when I built the plane that I am flying that wieghtis 1100 with a o -360. The best to more Wieght of is go on a Diet.Ron

Bill Rusk
01-27-2012, 06:44 PM
Ron

Wow, if you built an 0-360 Cub less than 1100 pounds back then, without all the lightweight stuff we have now, you are someone I need to talk to. :lol:
Well the good news is that if you get a frame like mine you will just have to follow this thread and you will be set. It is all going to be here, Lord willing.
I agree on the diet. I have lost 5 pounds since Jan 1st. I hope to drop another 10 which will put me at 165. I think it will be pretty tough to get much less than that.

Chris Hatin should be here any minute for a visit, as he is passing through town. I am looking forward to talking to the CEO of Bushwacker Acft.

Bill

tempdoug
01-27-2012, 06:52 PM
Bill, some of the guys up here are using a thin aluminum tread plate stuff for floorboards that looks pretty neat and light and durable also look at atlees safari seat they offer also sortve neat. www.fadodge.com (http://www.fadodge.com)

Olibuilt
01-27-2012, 08:28 PM
Was not lucky enough to find less then .060 aluminium diamond plate. Does it exist??

For the wing roots, I did let it open when modifing my plane. Not for weight saving but for storage. It's harder to seal for the rain, but I find those opening very practical for small stuff like water bottles, cellphone, satphone, headsets, cameras, etc...


5202








Is it necessary to fabricate the steel ''leading edge form at the fuselage'' if you leave it open??


5203

tempdoug
01-27-2012, 09:10 PM
Oli, i like it. Also your flap setup, cool. Is that your own design? MTV if your reading this maybe you could ask Lowell where hes getting his floorboard diamond plate, and ive seen others using it. If we get the source we can find out the thickness. doug

jgerard
01-27-2012, 09:24 PM
I would think that cork would hold moisture against the frame ?

Glenn

Felt would-Cork won't

Cork floats :wink: and it's been used by other manufactures to isolate floors from tubing for years. The Helio Courier is the first plane that comes to mind, I think the Beaver does in some areas too but I can't remember for sure. The adhesive backing is a sealed layer between the tube and the cork so no moisture would get in there. You should never leave steel in primer because primer is porous, ALL primers should be top coated with paint for maximum corrosion protection. There shouldn't ever be any water inside the fuse in that area unless you're hosing it out to remove blood or worse.... Puke! LOL

You will have way more moisture build up between the side fabric and the bottom longerons. I have seen tubes corroded right along that crotch where dirt and water collect between the fabric and the tube.



Jason

ron cope
01-27-2012, 09:42 PM
Hi Bill . Chris Hatin must be a busy boy,Jay saidhe just picked up three frames yesterday. I live in Madrus Or about 100 m from D W . Cell #5412316323 give me call some I can tell you of S C lies. Ron

Bushwhacker Air
01-28-2012, 08:49 AM
Had a great - albeit too short - visit with Bill. The fuse is gorgeous, and Bill's attention to detail is sure to be evident as he progresses with his build. Thanks for the invite, Bill.

Hey Ron - too busy!! Now to get them finished!! Spent 4 months aquiring our new airport and building the new shop, so Jay helped me out. Jay's work is perfect and his crew is top knotch.

flybynite
01-28-2012, 12:22 PM
2 things I saw might need checking...

on the elevator cables bellow floor thingys.. will you be adding some form of rub blocks to them?? maybe a piece of ski bottom UHMW plastic with a hole in it for cables riveted to front sides.... I would think over time those will sag and rub????


Mike,

The system uses pulleys to route the elevator cables under and just off the tubes.

5216

Similar to the trim cable pulleys shown here. Is that what you had in mind?

5217

Wayne

Minaki
01-28-2012, 03:45 PM
Just finished my interior panels made from .060 kydex. Weights are as follows.

Left front side. 1.45
Left side. 3.18
Left rear side. 1.69
Right front. 1.45
Right side. 2.05
Right rear side. .94
Rear upper bulkhead. 1.08
Rear lower bulkhead. 1.49


Total. 13.74 pounds

The Kydex is fun stuff to work with and makes a very nice interior.

mike mcs repair
01-28-2012, 04:05 PM
Mike,

The system uses pulleys to route the elevator cables under and just off the tubes.

5216

Similar to the trim cable pulleys shown here. Is that what you had in mind?

5217

Wayne

I just figure they will sag and vibrate on the metal stringer standoffs over time, from what I could see......

Longwinglover
01-29-2012, 07:54 AM
But the elevator cable system is a "closed loop" with tension at all times no matter the elevator/stick position. not like the rudders thatare not "closed loop".

John Scott

Olibuilt
01-30-2012, 07:33 PM
I wonder what thickness will you use for the boot cowl? Is .025 6061 T6 enough??

mike mcs repair
01-30-2012, 08:00 PM
But the elevator cable system is a "closed loop" with tension at all times no matter the elevator/stick position. not like the rudders thatare not "closed loop".

John Scott

just patched more than one belly fabric from elevator cables rubbing through from sagging(though NOT set up high like his, in those standoffs... that's why I ask..)

Bill Rusk
01-30-2012, 08:15 PM
Mike

I agree, just to be on the safe side I'll do a little UMHV in there.

Olibuilt Factory was .020, Javron uses .025, and Backcountry uses .032.

I am looking into Carbon Fiber, researching.......

Bill

Steve Pierce
01-30-2012, 08:56 PM
Factory used .020" thick 3003 aluminum for the boot cowl. I use .020" 2024T-3, stronger and no extra weight. Patched too many cracked and dented boot cowls.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/aluminumalloy.pdf

dukeair
01-30-2012, 09:23 PM
Bill, Randy at Plaschem anc has a 3 piece carbon fiber boot cowl that I used with Clyde's ss firewall. It works great for access behind instrument panel and saved about 4 lbs

kevin
01-31-2012, 12:28 PM
Bill, I never heard of Plaschem but it sounds good. PM Paul Romine. I think he made a complete carbon fiber boot cowl.

tempdoug
01-31-2012, 11:45 PM
One source for carbon fiber engine cowls, look under other parts non-certified. www.selkirk-aviation.com (http://www.selkirk-aviation.com)

MainlandCub
02-03-2012, 02:14 PM
Factory used .020" thick 3003 aluminum for the boot cowl. I use .020" 2024T-3, stronger and no extra weight. Patched too many cracked and dented boot cowls.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/aluminumalloy.pdf

How do you attach to the firewall Steve? You won't do the factory crimped flange with the 2024.

Yeah, you never want to lean against a 3003 boot cowl do you!

Andrew.

jgerard
02-03-2012, 03:57 PM
The titanium firewall has a 90 flange to the rear pre-bent into it

Jason

Steve Pierce
02-03-2012, 11:01 PM
There are a couple of ways to do it. Titanium firewall from Atlee Dodge that has a 90 degree angle crimped in it going backwards. Building one now and takes a little extra fluting to fit the contour of the boot cowl channels. You can cut the bootcowl off of you existing firewall leaving an 1" or so lip to rivet flat sheet metal to. Another is to buy a stainless firewall form Clyde Smith and a have him rivet an aluminum angle on the back side to attach the boot cowl sheet metal to or if you have a shrinker make the angle yourself. 3003 aluminum works well for the angle.

MainlandCub
02-04-2012, 01:23 AM
There are a couple of ways to do it. Titanium firewall from Atlee Dodge that has a 90 degree angle crimped in it going backwards. Building one now and takes a little extra fluting to fit the contour of the boot cowl channels. You can cut the bootcowl off of you existing firewall leaving an 1" or so lip to rivet flat sheet metal to. Another is to buy a stainless firewall form Clyde Smith and a have him rivet an aluminum angle on the back side to attach the boot cowl sheet metal to or if you have a shrinker make the angle yourself. 3003 aluminum works well for the angle.

Thanks Steve. Interesting to hear your techniques. Did the shrinker thing on my last one but that was around the bottom, wanted screw on panels. The top was soft with the crimps or flutes as per Piper. Tend to make everything here rather than buy from US due to the cost of shipping and the exchange rate.

Andrew.

kevin
02-04-2012, 11:35 AM
I got a SS firewall from Clyde Smith Jr. for my -12. He uses the flange riveted to the back of the entire firewall. Instead of riveting, the front of the boot cowl to the firewall, I nut plated the flange so I could screw the bootcowl. It was way more work and cost but in the end, I think it is worth it. My thinking was that if I had to take it off, I could unscrew everything. I used countersunk screws so my boot cowl would fit nicely over the flange of the firewall. I believe this flange is 3/4" wide. Clyde told me I'd have to cut off my cowl attach channels by 3/4" because of the flange. This flange was originally designed on the -14s. He is using these because the flange takes the stress out of the "L" shaped attach brackets that were normally used on the -12s which caused the cowlings to crack in those areas. If you use your own firewall, I believe Clyde will sell the flange seperate. Check them out on his website to be sure.

Bill Rusk
02-26-2012, 01:51 PM
Folks

Finally got around to starting work on this thing. One of the first things I have now noticed is just how fantastic it is to have all the hardware packaged and labeled. The Smithcub did not feature this. Doing a part like installing the front seat? Just get the hardware package labeled front seat and you have everything you need. THIS IS JUST SOOOO much easier and better.

If I were doing a certified rebuild or scratch building I would call Jay at Javron and order a hardware kit.

It has pretty much everything including, cotter pins, washers, fiber washers, bushings, nuts, bolts, screws, etc. Man this would have saved a fortune, a bunch of money, and time from figuring it out, buying a whole lot of unnecessary stuff, waiting for stuff to come in and general grief.

This is just soooo COOL.

Bill

Minaki
02-26-2012, 02:52 PM
Way cool Bill. The next cool thing you will discover is the fit and function of the torque tube, rudder pedals, etc. Good stuff indeed. Have fun.

Iflylower
02-26-2012, 03:22 PM
I agree, what a time saver that would be!

Roger Peterson
02-26-2012, 06:46 PM
Bill, remember to keep taking pictures and posting them. Like to follow along. I started buying parts from Javron also and sure like what I see.

Marty57
02-26-2012, 07:13 PM
You mean somebody tells you what bolts and hardware to use? What a novel concept. Nothing like that in my "scratch" built plans. By the way, "scratch" means scratching ones head because I often just don't get it!!!
Thank goodness for Super Cub.org :cheers:cheers
Marty57

Bill Rusk
02-27-2012, 08:16 PM
STRINGER INSTALL

Folks

Started out easy by installing the stringers. First thing I noticed was the C channel was a little too long on the left side so I cut off the part I put the black stripes on. Could have left it but hey that saved .120 of an ounce. 8)

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000107.jpg

Now it looks like this. But notice the bump where the stringer goes into the channel. That will show up as a ugly wrinkle in your fabric job.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000108.jpg


So notch the stringer with your belt/disc sander and a file. I prefer to have the stringer just a little proud of the C channel so I can get it perfectly smooth with just a few passes with a file and sandpaper.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000110.jpg


I also used a#50 drill and MS24665-132 cotterpins to hold the side and bottom stringers on. If you use #6 screws and nuts it will add about 1 ounce per stringer. Some folks use safety wire but the cotterpins can be put in and out while you are fitting things. One thing about building is that you will put it together and take it apart a BUNCH of times. Don't fight it. Get used to it. There are a couple of places where you can't get the drill in there so you have to use one of these.....

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10001161.jpg

This is an angle drill attachment. You will use it quite often. You will also break the drills often as well so just buy some extra bits up front. I used a #40 bit and a MS24665-283 cotterpin where I could not get the regular drill in there. This is the larger cotter pin in this photo...

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000109.jpg

And the smaller cotter pin here......

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000111.jpg


At the rear of the side stringers you will need to bring the stringer inside the fuselage so the fabric will float off the stringer and have a smooth termination. I cut a couple of slits (three in this photo but you really only need two. I used a dremel and a cut off wheel. This allows you to bend the stringer. Looks like this.........

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000112.jpg

Then take a piece of .020 2024 AL and cut it to fit in the stringer. It will look kinda like this (sorry for the photo).......

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10001131.jpg

Rivit this in the stringer over the slits to reinforce it. I used (4) 3-3 rivets. Sorry I don't have a picture of the rivited part. Thought I did.

Nothing unusual about the bottom stringer.

The top side stringers were a problem. The curves were smooth and looked nice until you got into the right position then you could see a bulge in the middle part. Most people would never see it but I was not happy. I measured all Jays work and as best I can tell it is spot on according to the plans. Sometimes the plans are not good enough. My options were to cut and reweld several doghouses or put small spacers in to make the lines flow the way I wanted. I chose to make some spacers from 1/8th inch thick to 1/4 inch and epoxy them in. You can see the gap in the slot (before I put the spacer in) here.....

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000115.jpg


I have told Jay about this but the problem is ..... it is according to the plans. So does he fix it then making it non standard? What if you do not see this the same way I do? I don't have an answer....so.....just look carefully at the top side stringers and see if you like the "lines". If not do something like this to make it flow in a way that is pleasing to your own eye.

The top three stringers will probably have to be held on with screws and nuts as there is not much clearance for the fabric so the attachments will need to be low profile. Darn, added 3 ounces.

The top stringer will warp and bow as you try to put it in as it has a pretty good sweeping curve. So you must bend it so that it is not under a bunch of tension. You CAN bend and shape it but it is not easy. I placed it over a garbage can and very gently pushed on it. Move it over an inch or two and press. Keep this up going slowly and carefully until it bends into shape. This will take a while and probably bruise your palms but it can be done without all kinds of expensive tools, just lots of patience. Be very careful that you do not allow it to twist in this process as it will kink in a heartbeat if you are not careful.

Make REALLY sure that your stringers are straight and the lines are pleasing to your eye. The Mark 1, God Issued eyeball is incredibly accurate. You can often "see" variances that you can't hardly measure with a micrometer. Also these are the lines that your cub will have forever. Have you ever noticed that some cubs look really sharp and others just average? You may sit there and ponder it and you can't put your finger on it but one just looks nicer. Well this is part of it. When everything is just right, perfect if you will, the airplane takes on an aura that is greater than the simple sum of its parts and it will move into the "WOW" category.

Just my uneducated opinion

Hope this helps

Bill

docstory
02-27-2012, 08:31 PM
Make sure the stringer is rock solid at the c channel on the upper stringers. Any movement there will cause the paint to crack. Also, the stringers don't have to bottom out in the clips. Just drill the stringer where it lies and the fastener will hold it true.

mongo
02-27-2012, 08:40 PM
Those stringers sure look like they could use some lightening holes

Sent from my HTC Evo using Tapatalk

marcusofcotton
02-27-2012, 10:14 PM
I cut a couple of slits (three in this photo but you really only need two. I used a dremel and a cut off wheel. This allows you to bend the stringer. Looks like this.........

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000112.jpg


Maybe I'm over thinking this but I think drilling holes first to make the slits to might head off some cracking.

Sure appreciate your posts Bill!

Mark J

docstory
02-27-2012, 10:27 PM
We've always cut the web out of the stringer and then pull the tips together creating the curve necessary. Hold it together with the fabric tape.

skywagon8a
02-28-2012, 05:49 AM
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000112.jpg
You could cut a 2x4 with a curve in it, then Cut a slot in the 2x4 just wide enough for the lower part of the stringer. Then push the stringer into the slot to bend the amount that you want. This will keep the stringer from twisting and kinking. Just like a small manual press brake. Then you won't have to cut the relief slots. Of course you won't save the weight of the aluminum which is cut out of the slots.

Steve Pierce
02-28-2012, 10:55 AM
Neat stuff Bill. I like your idea of fitting the stringer to the 3/8" channel. I always hate seeing those cracks in the paint where they transition from the square "U" channel to the rounded stringer. I form the channel at the end with a rounded bucking bar I made that just fits in the channel and allows me to form it with a small hammer into a radius. Here is a picture of how Piper terminated the ends of the side stringers into the fuselage. Great subject because fitting the stringers seems to be more difficult than it looks if you want a really nice job.
5673
The web of the stringer is cut out and then bent over.

Dave Calkins
02-28-2012, 02:50 PM
No discussion of annealing the stringer? A wet rag and a propane torch do the job. An eye for a slight "color" change of the metal when heated with the propane torch, then dropping the wet rag over the heated area will accomplish the annealing. In time the extrusion will "re-harden".

kevin
02-28-2012, 03:05 PM
What about just using wood stringers. The Cub Club offers the diagrams and dimensions of each stringer needed. I used wood stringers for my restoration with no problems. Use a good 2 part epoxy varnish such as Poly Fiber and you will have no problems. I have also been told that a good single part varnish will work well too. Test it out on a piece of wood. If MEK will not take it off after it dries, you should be good to go. The biggest problem I had with the installation was the brackets that hold the stringer in broke so I had to weld some new ones in. The stringer was attached with saftey wire. Using wood will be cheaper and lighter than aluminum but does require a bit of work sanding, routing, cutting, varnishing.

Bill Rusk
02-28-2012, 06:47 PM
Lots of good inputs guys. I appreciate it. I often come out looking like a bit of a buffoon as there are a lot of really sharp folks on this site but if it helps others build a better Cub or learn something new.....oh well. I'll take one for the team.
Kevin, if you want to weigh your stringers it would be interesting to see if they are lighter. It would be good to know.
Here are the weights of my stringers after all trimming etc w/ no mounting hardware. Just the stringers.
Left side - 8.145 oz
Right side - 5.850 oz
Left top - 12.830 oz
Right top - 12.855 oz
Top center - 13.810 oz
Bottom - oops guess I need to get that weight.

BUSHING THE TAIL HINGES

Before we get started on this lets talk a little about reamers. If you are going to build a cub you are going to need a set of reamers. Unfortunately when you drill a hole it does not come out round. It is actually sorta triangle shaped. Not good. We want round holes so the bolt or whatever is equally stressed all the way around. Also works better for things that have to rotate in that hole. So you need to get a set of fluted hand reamers starting from 1/16th inch and going up to 7/16ths in 1/16 inch increments. So you will buy 7 reamers at about 5 bucks each. Give or take. You will use these little suckers ALL the time. Drill a hole a few thousandths undersize then use the reamer to bring it up to size. Thus you will also need a set of numbered and lettered drills.

So all the tail hinges have bushings that go in there. That makes about 18 bushings if I remember correctly. We will first ream out the hinge to get the excess powdercoat paint out and also to make it round again after it got warped during the welding process. The hinges near the edge of the rudder, stabs and elevators are easy to get to. Just put the reamer in the drill or use a reamer handle and put some lubricant on the reamer and go at it. ALWAYS use WD-40, LPS-2, or some lubricant when using your reamer. Not a good practice to do it dry. Go slow and easy. ALWAYS turn the reamer in the clockwise direction only. Reamers are NEVER rotated backwards even when trying to get it out. Always clockwise.
Make one pass only here. We are not trying to enlarge the hole just gently cleaning it out. We want the bushings to go in there with a friction fit, not fall out the other side. If you try to tap the bushing in and it will not go in with gentle taps, back out and ream just a little more until it will go in with a nice fit. The best thing to do here is order the bushing tool from Steve Pierce. It presses the bushing in. But in the event you get in a hurry like me this technique will also work. I use a clevis pin and tap the bushing in with a 4 oz ball peen hammer. What? You do not have a 4 oz Ball Peen hammer? Go hustle your little pink hiney down to Sears and get one this instant. No, a larger hammer will not do. There are going to be a lot of places in this build where you need a light touch. This is one of them. Your set up will look like this.......

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000120.jpg

We are going to TAP the bushing in. GENTLY Jethro. When it is in the clevis pin should rotate freely and it should come out with no resistance at all. If not....remember those reamer things I told you about? Then next time don't pound the soft brass bushing so darn hard Bubba.

Now the hinges that are not next to the edge of the surface are a little harder to ream. You could spend a bunch of money and buy a long handled reamer, or you could weld a extension on the reamer (if you can do this you should be writing this not me) or you can cheat a little. Use your finger to push on the end of the reamer and to keep it straight, (we do not want it to wobble and wallow out the hole) and you will turn the reamer with a wrench. To all the machinist types out there reading this please don't panic. We are building a Cub not the space shuttle. Remember not to over ream it. Just one pass through, AND DON"T TURN IT BACKWARDS or you will go straight to ..........
Just kidding. Your set up might look like this........

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P10001191.jpg

So ...........now you know about reamers. You will use them to clean out all kinds of holes and to make things nice and round. And you now have bushings in all your tail feathers. Pretty cool hugh?

Hope this helps

Flame suit on

Bill

Bill Rusk
02-28-2012, 07:23 PM
ENGINE WEIGHT DATA

This is still a little incomplete but I got these numbers from Bart at Aero Sport Power. Bart is a Cub guy so he understands the weight issue. If you folks don't already know it he is one of the top engine builders out there. Someone told me the top 5 places at the Valdez Short Field TO/LND contest all had Bart engines this last year. He does great work and has an impeccable reputation. Highly recommended.

Weights may vary

All engines have fuel system, 2 mags, starter


ECI O-375-C2A 283.5LBS
ECI O-320-D2A 276LBS
ECI IO-340 280LBS
LYCOMING O-360-A1A 285LBS
SUPERIOR O-360-A1A 284LBS

So a NEW 0-360 is going to be very close to 285 pds, an 0-320 will be 276 or approx 10 pounds lighter.

My 0-360 engine built by Bart (with extra attention to weight) came in at 270. That is with a carb, pmags, flywheel (lightened) and starter.

Bill

kevin
02-28-2012, 08:29 PM
Good Stuff Bill. I should have weighed my wood stringers but I didn't think of it at the time. My stringers are on my plane now.

docstory
02-28-2012, 08:30 PM
Slide the shaft of the reamer through the hinge barrel first and turn the reamer as you draw the flutes the rest of the way through. It stays really straight that way, especially when reaming the double barrel side.

Bill Rusk
02-28-2012, 08:50 PM
Docstory

Like I said there are some really sharp folks on this site.....Great tip. Thank you

Bill

phdigger123
02-28-2012, 09:51 PM
Instead of driving the bushings in, use a bolt with a washer between the head and the bushing. Place another washer on the end pulling on the hinge. Put on the nut and tighten with wrenches. The bushing will pull in with no distortion and you can get a good snug fit.

pfjay52
02-29-2012, 08:17 PM
Hey Bill,
Superior have just bought out an IO408 rated at 230hp on Avgas or 218hp on Mogas, i wonder what the weight of this is? and with a Catto prop it should bring it back into something we can work with? i like the option of running on Mogas..
cheers,
Phil

mongo
02-29-2012, 08:55 PM
Hey Bill,
Superior have just bought out an IO408 rated at 230hp on Avgas or 218hp on Mogas, i wonder what the weight of this is? and with a Catto prop it should bring it back into something we can work with? i like the option of running on Mogas..
cheers,
Phil

Website says 295
PIG

Bill Rusk
03-11-2012, 10:04 PM
Nut plates

One of the great things about building your own Cub is you get to use nut plates. No stripped out screws. Well....mostly. You can strip out a nut plate but it is a lot less likely than stripping out a sheet metal screw. I personally have a problem with sheet metal screws because it seems like they are always stripped out and that drives me bonkers. So .....I use nut plates for EVERYTHING. There are basically two types. Tinnerman and regular. Tinnerman are easy to use, some just slip on the tabs and some are riveted in and some are just held on by the friction of the threads.
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000135.jpg

From the top right....the first two things are tinnerman nut plates, then the next three are different shaped regular nut plates. The screws are from left to right....Tinnerman (type B), sheetmetal (type A), and machine screw. Note that you can (in a pinch) use a sheetmetal type A screw in a tinnerman nut plate but it is not really correct. You should use a tinnerman type B screw for tinnerman nut plates.

On the Backcountry and Javron kits you will see a lot of tabs in the baggage area and generally all over. This is for you to attach the interior panels to. They look like this................

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000137.jpg

These are designed for a tinnerman. You will need to enlarge the hole a little ( I use a #22 drill or 5/32 same thing) then you just slip a tinnerman on and you are good to go. Looks like this............

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000138.jpg

Tinnermans work fine but one of the lessons learned from my last Cub was that it was a pain to have a wide mix of screws. #6 and #8 Tinnerman plus #6 and #8 sheetmetal and #6 and #8 machine screws. What a hassle, so this time I am trying to use #6 machine screws as much as possible. In order to do that it takes more time to install regular nutplates. They would look like this for the little tabs. You have to use the mini corner nut plates............

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000140.jpg

Note - you can use clecos to hold your cardboard interior patterns in place. Looks like this........

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000134.jpg

This works REALLY well as they are in the exact same place each time you take them in and out to get the fit just right. You can also put a piece of tape over the hole to reinforce it if you start to wear it loose. But the reason I am talking about this here is that you do not want to drill out and enlarge the tab holes or put your nutplates on until after you have made all the patterns. After you drill out the holes the clecos will not fit. So...... make all your interior patterns, and even the actual interior panels, cleco it all you want......THEN put your nut plates in. Don't get the cart before the horse here or you will not be able to use the cleco trick which is REALLY handy.

More to follow

Bill

Bill Rusk
03-11-2012, 10:37 PM
So lets put some nut plates in the boot cowl channels. If we start about 1 inch down from the top tube and put them about 3"s apart you will have 8 nut plates and they will end about 1 inch above the bottom tube. It will look like this.........

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000132.jpg

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000128.jpg

So mark your holes, center punch them, and drill. I prefer to start with a #40 drill, then I enlarge it to a #28 (9/64). This is the size needed for the drill jig. It looks like this and is one of the absolute must have tools.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000127.jpg

Note I took a marker and wrote the two drill sizes on the tool. #40 and #28. This helps those of us that don't do this every day. Use the drill jig to drill the rivet holes. Then enlarge the main screw hole to a #22 drill. This is so the screw will not hang up on the structure enroute to the actual nut plate. Now you must debur the back side of all the holes. You can spin a larger drill in there sometimes and that will work quick and easy. Sometimes you will have to get creative to get to the back side to debur the holes but you must do so. Now use a countersink on the rivet holes for the flush rivets. You will pretty much always have to use flush rivets to make things fit up tight with nut plates. Squeeze some rivets. You will have to make a squeezer head to go in the channel. I took an AN3 bolt and sanded it down so that it fit inside the channel. So there you are putting nut plates in the aft belly access panel area and you can't get the squeezer in there. Just won't fit. Ain't gonna happen. Looks like this.........

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000158.jpg

Trick

You can squeeze flush rivets just fine with a pair of smooth jaw pliers like these. Jason Gerard turned me on to these and I must admit they are useful for all sorts of things including rivet squeezing........

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000160.jpg

Get them from McMaster-Carr.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000159.jpg

They will also come in handy when doing the nut plates for the top front skylight/windscreen area. There are 6 screws across the top. The outside ones are right next to the channel so you will use the one lug nut plates there and std two lug plates in the middle.

The one lug nut plate is on the left and the std 2 lug nut plate is on the right in this photo...........

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000131.jpg


From the outside holes you will have 24 inches to put in 4 nutplates so they will be 4' 25.5/32 apart. Give or take. If you are doing a widebody cub I would use 7 nut plates and that way the center nut plate will be right on the centerline of the windscreen. This is what the outside nut plates would look like............

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000161.jpg

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000162.jpg

When drilling the holes be sure to put something under the piece you are drilling so that when the bit comes out it does not scratch up the tube under it. Looks like this.............

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/P1000163.jpg


So we have learned a bit about nut plates. I hope this helps. Again...folks.....I am not a pro but this might get you started. You can also go to youtube and search nut plates and there are some "how to" videos there as well.

Bill

Bill Rusk
03-11-2012, 11:06 PM
Another thought. If you are building a Cub or even thinking about it I recommend you go to the Backcountry website and download their builders manual. They have been kind enough to make it available to all for free....THANK YOU BACKCOUNTRY.....very nice and generous.

http://supercub.com/html/manual/Assembly_Manual.pdf

Hope this helps

Bill