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Trev
01-28-2011, 12:49 AM
First, thanks for all the great information on this site.

I need to ferry a stock 1980 PA-18-150 from Arizona to Oregon next month. I haven't seen the logbooks yet and I'm wondering which recurring ADs would normally need to be done for a Cub slightly out of annual? I'm expecting the muffler and fuel selector. Anything else?

Thanks for the help.

mike mcs repair
01-28-2011, 03:19 AM
only the ones that specifically being able to PROHIBIT a ferry flight to a place that can to do the inspections....

they just don't want to contradict themselves, and say it must be done before it can go in the air again.... but then get a 'special' ferry permit that might ignore it....

YMMV......

Trev
02-02-2011, 09:50 PM
Right. Thanks.

nanook
02-03-2011, 12:16 AM
Don't forget the engine stuff....Mags.....500hr impulse coupling...you are also responsible for the non-recurring ADs....You can't operate past any due ADs....past, present or future.....

mike mcs repair
02-03-2011, 12:40 AM
repeat:
only the ones that specifically being WRITTEN in them to PROHIBIT a ferry flight to a place that can to do the inspections.... need to be done BEFORE a ferry flight

nanook
02-03-2011, 03:13 AM
I'm not real clear on what you are saying....It is my understanding that the FAA maint. insp. that will issue you a ferry permit, does not have the authorization to issue, if any ADs are not complied with...If the AD specifically says that you can operate past the due date/time to get to a place to comply with the AD. Then you are OK.....which is probably what you just got through saying....

mike mcs repair
02-03-2011, 03:26 AM
I'm not real clear on what you are saying....It is my understanding that the FAA maint. insp. that will issue you a ferry permit, does not have the authorization to issue, if any ADs are not complied with...If the AD specifically says that you can operate past the due date/time to get to a place to comply with the AD. Then you are OK.....which is probably what you just got through saying....


no,

the AD will specifically say if it CAN NOT be operated on a ferry permit to go to a place that can do an AD.... (thats what the 'new' ferry permit wording is about, so that you can't over rule an AD that says must be complied with "BEFORE FURTHER FLIGHT")

if it does NOT specifically prohibit a ferry flight then its ok.... (they added that line to the ferry permits in ? late 80's/very early 90's)

BUT some fsdo inspectors misinterpret that AD part(and other things :-( ),

they(FSDO inspector) have NO choice but to give you a ferry permit if you ask properly, period.....(that's from them)

BUT!, YOU as the A&P are certifying that it is SAFE, and COMPLIES with the wording in that special flight permit....(2x4"s, duct tape, come-a-longs and all :-) )

mike mcs repair
02-03-2011, 03:43 AM
A Special Flight Permit (commonly referred to as a Ferry Permit) may be issued to any U.S. registered aircraft that may not currently meet applicable Airworthiness Requirements but is capable for safe flight.
Note:
1.) A Special Flight Permit is not an authorization to deviate from the requirements of 14 CFR Part 91.
2.) Special Flight Permits will be issued by the FSDO/IFO having jurisdiction over the geographical area in which the flight is to originate, this does not apply to 121 or 135 certificate holders.
3.) If an AD requires compliance before further flight and does not have a provision for issuance of a Special Flight Permits, the operation of the aircraft to which it applies would not be appropriate, and a Special Flight Permit will not be issued.

mike mcs repair
02-03-2011, 04:16 AM
more

from SAIB: NE-06-32R1 prop strike ad.... SUBJ: Reciprocating Engine - Crankshaft
(SFP = Special Flight Permit)

.........
o This AD was one of the first to eliminate the provision for an SFP and did not include a
statement prohibiting one from being issued. This is because of a revision to FAR Part 39. ␣ FAR Part 39 revision, effective August 21, 2002, removed certain provisions from
all ADs. FAR Part 39.23 provides for an SFP to fly an aircraft to a repair facility. However, when an SFP will not be issued due to an unacceptable safety risk, the AD will state in a separate paragraph, that an SFP will not be issued.
o The statement “... before further flight” in this AD addresses the compliance of the AD, not the issuance of an SFP.
o The authorization for the SFP is in FAR 39.23 UNLESS the AD specifically states that an SFP will only be issued with special requirements or the FAA will not issue an SFP.

• FAR 39.23 is the authority that states that a local FSDO may issue an SFP, even when the compliance section of the AD states “before further flight”. This determination has been reviewed and is endorsed by the New England Regional Counsel.

S2D
02-03-2011, 08:46 AM
Mike is right, if you had to do an annual and comply with all the AD's before a ferry flight, there would be no need for a Ferry Permit,

nanook
02-03-2011, 11:30 AM
Yea, well, This is not a matter of being a minor inconvenience. Since 99.9 percent of the ADs issued on cubs are from the 50's through the 80's, those are the ones that we have to live with....You need to read FAR 21.199 and FAR. 39.23.....mike you are living in dream land if you think some fed in Alaska is going to give you a ferry permit on an unairworthy aircraft because of some legal opinion issued by the New England legal dept. Ferry Permits are on a case by case basis.....you have to prove that the aircraft is airworthy for a ferry flight....The Fed as the FAR's explain may require you to do further inspections or turn you down for the ferry permit if they feel the aircraft cannot be operated safely...Also bear in mind if you sign off an aircraft for ferry, and the aircraft doesn't make it to the destination.....I'll give you three guesses on who they are going to be looking for.....
So to further clarify, only the AD's issued after 2002 will have the SFP provision that mike is referring to. Read 8130.2F Section 13 par.191...The inspector will not issue a SFP if the AD does not allow it... Most of the ADs that we are referring to, DO NOT ALLOW you to overfly or go beyond a due date. The Inspectors hands are tied (39.7)

mike mcs repair
02-03-2011, 01:18 PM
I always call and get a ferry permit before I even see or know whats really wrong with a plane 300 miles away or who even owns it, all i need is an N-Number.... it has a 10 day window that i get to choose when that window starts, if I can't get there, fix it and get it ready to go in that window someone just calls them and they extend/issue new one for another 10 days...

then when I get to it, if I can fix it to airworthy, I sign it off and its good to go back to service, if its just patched up then i sign it off safe for ferry to where good repairs can be made...

I had one that took 6 months and 3 diffrent flights & permits to make it up from the chain because of weather/schedules.....

Steve Pierce
02-04-2011, 10:03 PM
People taking advantage of the system have screwed it up for all of us. Most of the aircraft I maintain reside a long ways a way from my home field. Used to be no big deal to get a ferry permit. Now they want a log book entry signed and faxed to them, how long since last annual and several other things. I argued and got to do it once I got home with the airplane since I was in ten buck two with no access to a fax machine. The excuse I was given was some guy ferried a Bonanza that was out of annual for 10 years and some happened and he crashed. I say hang his ass high and leave the rest of us alone.

I got a field approval on tires today. I filled out a field approval checklist, instructions for continued airworthiness, tundra tire checklist and a 337. Now they want me to provide Car 3 compliance checklist. I argued that only one question applied and they were answered in the other checklist 3 times over. This packet was 75 plus pages and took at least 10 hours to generate. Common sense is gone.

bob turner
02-05-2011, 02:30 AM
Nanook:

Don't forget the engine stuff....Mags.....500hr impulse coupling...you are also responsible for the non-recurring ADs....You can't operate past any due ADs....past, present or future..

They changed that A/D. It no longer applies to the smaller mags. Now you need a lawyer to read any of this. I believe Mike and Steve are giving you good guidance, but there are always ambiguities in this stuff, and you can read it all to your disadvantage if you want. It just makes your life harder, not Mike or Steve's.

Opinion.

mike mcs repair
02-05-2011, 03:10 AM
it been a few years since i got one, so maybe things have changed?

or the normal depends who you ask for one?

nanook
02-05-2011, 04:17 AM
Yea bob, maybe you should get a lawyer to read it. The AD that is, the Latest Bendix AD says on the 540 series engine, you look at the impulse coupling more often...the 500 inspection is still in effect for the other series engines/mags....
So Trev, who started this, wants to know what ADs he has to do before a ferry flight? Pretty much all of them that are due....is the short answer....Unless the AD says you can fly this somewhere to get the work done....Simple enough....

Steve Pierce
02-05-2011, 08:26 AM
They resended the 500 hr impulse AD on the 4 cylinders. Inspections were causing more problems than anything and they discovered it was the pulses from the 540 causing the problem.

bob turner
02-05-2011, 07:39 PM
I agree with Steve. Not many mechanics read it correctly, since it is poorly written. But it is not ambiguous. And I am a lawyer.

nanook
02-05-2011, 07:44 PM
Well good then, you can read it for me.....I need all the help I can get.....

Steve Pierce
02-06-2011, 09:22 AM
I keep seeing the impulse coupling AD noted in logbooks even though it has been replaced.

mike mcs repair
02-06-2011, 01:03 PM
I keep seeing the impulse coupling AD noted in logbooks even though it has been replaced.

ya, "false statements" and pencil whiping come to mind when i see someone do that or use an old ad # thats been superceeded years ago(since they obviously didn't do an ad search then......)

bob turner
02-06-2011, 02:50 PM
I don't think this will be a problem - a lot of mechanics - good ones - mis-read the new A/D and simply pulled the mags and put the paperclip in there - then signed it done. No harm done, and no pencil-whipping, just a misunderstanding of convoluted and unexpected wording. How often, after all, do the Feds loosen up on this stuff?

Same thing with that 160 HP A/D to inspect the crankshaft bore - a lot of really good mechanics mis-read that one.

mike mcs repair
02-06-2011, 04:16 PM
I don't think this will be a problem - a lot of mechanics - good ones - mis-read the new A/D and simply pulled the mags and put the paperclip in there - then signed it done. No harm done, and no pencil-whipping,

yes,
but the are signing off an AD or Revision that does not exist anymore.... which is worse than NOT signing something off......