Northwest Fuselage Jig?

I've searched but can't find any information on it, but isn't there an outfit in the Seattle area or Oregon that has a Super Cub fuselage jig? I believe there is a guy building PA12 fuselages in Oregon, but I thought there was a PA18 jig here in the Northwest as well?

Thanks in advance.

David

David there is a fellow in Oregon I think has a jig. I have his phone # somewhere. I'll try to find it. You could try Wayne Mackay (spelling?) who is on this site he is in Montana. I would split a trip to get both to him or even the guy in Oregon. What is the problem with yours?

My son Chris and I want to throw an exp PA18 together to do some sandbar cruising. We're on hold for a little while on out Travel Air so we want to put together a SC until we reconvene on the TA. We want to use as many used parts as we can to accelerate the process. As far as a frame, we're looking at two options; repair an existing frame or weld up one from scratch. If we repair one of the damaged ones we're considering, I'd like the fittings in the repaired areas to be welded on in someone's jig. If we weld one up from scratch, I want to firewall area, tail post and other fittings and attach points finished in a jig.

Speaking of Wayne Mackey, I'd like to extend the forward part of the lower door like he does on his SQ ships. Do you know how he trusses the frame in the door area in order to extend the lower door to the next forward diagonal?

Thanks

I don't know how Wayne does those. You are very limited on how many "salvaged" (those used parts you come across from a certified aircraft) you can use in your experimental build. If you haven't done it look up FAA ac20-27g http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/4db2c5cd655cb3cc86257647004af4ee/$FILE/AC%2020-27G.pdf
advisory circular paying particular attention to appendix 8 at the end. I have been told that is the new standard for figuring the 51% rule. In appendix 8 are around ten possible major catagories (fuselage, empenage, controls, propulsion, etc.). Those are further broken down into operations (fabricate, assemble, adjust, etc). To use appendix 8 you have to figure how many possible points a given design has. For instance a super cub does not have a main rotor or a canard so those major catagories do not count towards the "design" total points. So, my take and the "take" from two DAR's I have talked to is that there are about 140 total points to build a super cub. Of those 140 points you need about 80 points that are not accomplished by professionals (paid help). Now here's the rub with salvaged parts. With a new purchased (never mounted to a certified aircraft) welded fuselage you would lose the fabrication part but you would get the points for covering.. If you use a used "salvaged" part you lose the whole major catagory "fuselage" or about 20 points out of the 140 no matter what work you do to it. Any work you do to a major catagory part is considered "repair" of a certified aircraft part. Anyway look at appendix 8 and think about what you are planning to see if you can make it work. My plan is to use the fuse I have and scratch build wings and tail pieces. These parts are by far the majority of the points so hopefully I'll be alright with the fuse. Warning : the foregoing is my take on things. YMMV! Contact a DAR in your area and find one who will approve what you are doing because in the end he has to approve your attempts at the 51% rule. On another thread a while back a FAA official apparently told someone NO reuse of a certified aircraft fuselage would be allowed.? Last thought on this... Your comment "My son Chris and I want to throw an exp PA18 together to do some sandbar cruising" at face value does not sound like the spirit of the amateur built rules. Please don't take my observation wrong. We all would probably accept (in my case it would need to be LSA) a free, assembled, Carbon Cub but the desire to build one of these should probably be the TOP reason for doing it. In my case the desire to research and learn about these aircraft is probably the driving force. Second is that I like knowing I know my aircraft inside and out. I am trying also to beat the system in cost but that remains to be seen if I will be successful or not.

I would take it to Wayne. His jig is set upfor the correct angle of incidence and will make it a great flying and performing airplane. The plus is you get to visit with him as well. He built his first Cub at around 18 yrs. old out of pieces he drug out of the Alaska bush. Everytime I am around Wayne I have a great time talking Cubs and learning.

Maybe we could get a group discount David? I can carry two fuses on my truck...where are you? I'm 30 mi nw of sea..

qsmx440 said:

...where are you? I'm 30 mi nw of sea..

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Holy cow, small world - I'm on Whidbey. Where are you, Arlington?

D.A., Where are you on Whidbey? My mom and dad used to live in Langley. My dad had a hangar at Whidbey. My folks now live on Camano Island and my dad just recently moved his hangar to Skagit.

D.A., I got so caught up with the Whidbey Island I forgot to answer your question. There is a man in Oregon who I believe has a jig. His business name is Cub Denn. Another source is Cubcrafters.

D.A. said:

Holy cow, small world - I'm on Whidbey. Where are you, Arlington?

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I live in Quilcene and have a hangar at Jefferson co.

Is Jefferson County Port Townsend? If so, I like there diner there.;-)

kevin said:

Is Jefferson County Port Townsend? If so, I like there diner there.;-)

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Yup. Thats the place. I bought one of those new t hangars next to the approach end of 27. Can't spend enough time there!. Good food at the cafe.

Cool. Whenever I'm up there, we always go there for lunch. Next time I'm there, I'll walk around and look for a Cub in the hangars....don't mean to hijack the thread.

kevin said:

Cool. Whenever I'm up there, we always go there for lunch. Next time I'm there, I'll walk around and look for a Cub in the hangars....don't mean to hijack the thread.

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I'll pm some numbers. The super is an experimental project at this point. But you would get to see the insides!

kevin said:

D.A., Where are you on Whidbey? ...my dad just recently moved his hangar to Skagit.

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I had Richard Bach's old J3 for awhile and kept it at Viajet (Skagit). I live in Oak Harbor but don't really make it out to the airport here that much. When done, the Cub (and hopefully Travel Air) will be back at Viajet.

qsmx440 said:

I live in Quilcene and have a hangar at Jefferson co.

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So you're out on the peninsula. My buddy lives on Blue Ribbon and has an aerobatic/tail wheel/wing walking school there. It used to take about 25 minutes in the J3 to fly there or I could drive around and take 4 hours. I guess I could always have taken the ferry, but either way, it's a long day if you drove it. I have to take a Stearman seat to him sometime soon, maybe we can meet up.

Very Cool. I think I've been to Viajet. If it is who I'm thinking of, I walked into their big hangar and saw them building a Thunder Mustang. I think there were a couple of antiques in there too. When my dad was based at Whidbey, we would fly to Skagit for fuel. I think we fueled at Viajet. Last time I was up there was about a year ago. I don't know where his new hangar is at Skagit. I haven't been up there yet. Speaking of Travel Airs, I have a friend of mine here on my home field who flies one too. They are wonderful birds. When I was up there last year, I saw Larry Sitauer's Travel Air at Arlington. He is a craftsman!;-)

kevin said:

D.A., I got so caught up with the Whidbey Island I forgot to answer your question. There is a man in Oregon who I believe has a jig. His business name is Cub Denn. Another source is Cubcrafters.

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Cub Denn must not have a website by that name apparently. CubCrafters has a jig for their Sport Cub but not the Piper geometry Cub I believe - - - might be wrong on that. Even though they are trussed differently, maybe the Sport Cub and Piper Cub have the same end points? Maybe the same fixture would work for both? My guess is that they're different.

You would think with all the Cub activity in the Seattle area and the Northwest and all the work being done in Yakima that there would actually be a selection of fixtures, but apparently not.

kevin said:

I walked into their big hangar and saw them building a Thunder Mustang....I think there were a couple of antiques in there too....I think we fueled at Viajet....I saw Larry Sitauer's Travel Air at Arlington. He is a craftsman!;-)

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It's my personal oppinion that all the cool kids hang out at Viajet. Dean Holt, the owner, is just about as cool as they come. Yes, they're finishing his Thunder Mustang, plus there's another one in a box in his hangar, plus he just bought the Thunder Mustang Company. How cool is that. Thunder Mustang is now in our back yard.

Dean intentionally keeps his fuel price lower than everyone elses. A lot of people fly into Skagit and taxi past all the other fuel pumps to get to Viajet.

Larry is an artist and is also a Jack Lanning protege. My project would be much more of a challenge without Larry's knowledge and generosity.

http://davidadamflyingcircus.com/

Steve Tubbs in Idaho had a jig for sale a couple of years ago when I talked with him he was asking 6K back then.

David, Great site. I see you have my friend, Bruce's Travel Air on your site. It truly is a wonderful restoration. What a small world it is. My dad restored his Aeronca Champ when he was hangared at Whidbey. It is hopped up pretty good now. If you see a white, maroon and gold trim Champ over at Skagit, stop him and say Hi.

Kevin

Complete jigs are nice luxuries but nothing wrong with old school plywood blocks, plumb bobs, and some good measurements!

David, If you wanted to reach Cub Denn, I would email Cub Club and see if they have a contact for him. It's woth a shot.

KG

DW said:

Steve Tubbs in Idaho had a jig for sale a couple of years ago when I talked with him he was asking 6K back then.

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Tubbs sold his jig. Its here in Billings.

Bugs66 said:

Complete jigs are nice luxuries but nothing wrong with old school plywood blocks, plumb bobs, and some good measurements!

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You're probably right Christian. I was just hoping to avoid "chasing" the frame as I welded, plus I figured if I had my final end points and attach fittings done in a jig, it would cover a multitude of other sins.

Any more thought toward a TA? I'm in the shop making horizontal stab ribs right now. It would be real easy to make another set

Wow, discovered three more folks here in western Washington. It'll be great fun, once I'm in the air, to be meeting you guys! Working on Crosswinds cuff today - -

David, I am going to be building a set of 2200 amphibs from Zenair. I ordered the kit so am on the hook now. Will document on my web site. TA or similar one day!

Bugs66 said:

David, I am going to be building a set of 2200 amphibs from Zenair. I ordered the kit so am on the hook now. Will document on my web site. TA or similar one day!

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Awesome!!!! That is the route I hope to go too. I was thinking of putting the pump in the float so that the cub could remain unmolested. All the info that I have "adopted" from your site, you are going to have a partial clone flying in a year in Georgia.

Airframe Jig

Here is the email I have for him. CubDenn@aol.com

Thanks wpbrady. Just fired off an email.