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Dave Prizio
12-09-2010, 02:39 PM
I have an article coming out in the March 2011 Kitplanes where I compare light sport Cub kits, including the Carbon Cub EX, the Texas Sport Cub (Legend), the Wag Aero Sport Trainer, and the RANS S-7S. I hope you all get a chance to read it and enjoy it.

With that project completed I would like to do a similar article comparing the larger PA-18 type Super Cub kits. These are the kits I have on my list so far: Carbon Cub EX (again), Back Country Cub (formerly Smith Cub and Turbine Cub of Wyoming), Bearhawk Patrol, and the Bush Wacker Cub. What have I missed?

I want to limit it to tandem 2-seat, fabric covered, bush-type planes with 160-210 horsepower. That would leave out 4-place and side-by-side planes.

Besides adding to my list if I have missed something, I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has built one of these kitplanes. Such things as quality and completeness of kit, quality of instructions/plans, quality of service from kit manufacturer, builder group support, etc. are of great interest to me.

Thanks for your help.

Dave Calkins
12-09-2010, 02:51 PM
:wink:Dave, "good on 'ya" for requesting feedback for your next article from this group.

Maybe a mention of SuperCub.ORG in your article as a suggestion of where to find a lively, knowledgeable, dynamic site that welcomes those interested in tandem two-place bush planes................or those interested in pretty much anything.

SuperCub.ORG.........it ain't for sissies~

jaypratt
12-09-2010, 03:11 PM
Dave,
You missed The North Star, a Super cub kit by www.Customflightltd.com (http://www.Customflightltd.com) I completed mine in 2004. Very good kit, quality parts, good plans, and instrustions. The kit had a complete call out list for the nuts and bolts and other parts that were not included. I have flown it 660 trouble free hours sinse the first flight.

I have some expertice in the kit building arena, I have completed 36 RV aircraft kits, and several ultralight planes. I considered the North Star a good kit and easy to build kit plane.

The North Star has a wider fuselage 2.5", and it incorporates a lot of the common "Alaska Mods" I especially like the bigger baggege door and the full length fish pole tube. Mine has a Lycoming 0-360, 31" Alaska Bush Wheels, Sutton Exhaust. It is a fun and capable airplane

Bugs66
12-09-2010, 03:13 PM
There is the Super-18 Kit. Do the higher power Storch kits qualify?

Cubus Maximus
12-09-2010, 03:33 PM
http://javroninc.com/index.cfm/pageid/26

http://javroninc.com/index.cfm/pageid/42

Javron in Brainerd, MN makes complete PA-18 / PA-12 / PA-11 and J-3 kits.

spinner2
12-09-2010, 03:48 PM
I am building a Carbon Cub EX kit now as an 1865 gross weight airplane, not a Light Sport. I have a blog started this week here: http://www.supercub.org/forum/blog.php I also have additional images in my photo gallery on the project.

AntiCub
12-09-2010, 03:53 PM
I see the Bearhawk Patrol is on that list. I can't comment on the kit, but the plans are some of the best, most complete I've seen.

I'll be looking forward to your March article as well.

Phil

Amy
12-09-2010, 05:23 PM
I have an article coming out in the March 2011 Kitplanes where I compare light sport Cub kits, including the Carbon Cub EX, the Texas Sport Cub (Legend), the Wag Aero Sport Trainer, and the RANS S-7S. I hope you all get a chance to read it and enjoy it.

With that project completed I would like to do a similar article comparing the larger PA-18 type Super Cub kits. These are the kits I have on my list so far: Carbon Cub EX (again), Back Country Cub (formerly Smith Cub and Turbine Cub of Wyoming), Bearhawk Patrol, and the Bush Wacker Cub. What have I missed?

I want to limit it to tandem 2-seat, fabric covered, bush-type planes with 160-210 horsepower. That would leave out 4-place and side-by-side planes.

Besides adding to my list if I have missed something, I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has built one of these kitplanes. Such things as quality and completeness of kit, quality of instructions/plans, quality of service from kit manufacturer, builder group support, etc. are of great interest to me.

Thanks for your help.

Hi Dave!

I will be PM'ing you soon--have an exam to get through tonight.

Bushwhacker Air
12-09-2010, 05:53 PM
Great news, Dave. Seems like the Supercub Kits get overshadowed in the media by the go-fast, aluminum/composite crowd sometimes. I have PM'd you also, and look forward to chatting with you about the article.

qsmx440
12-09-2010, 07:21 PM
Not exactly a kit but there is a few of us one-piece-at-a-time types buying parts and pieces new and used here and there, scratch building the rest of the aircraft and building our planes from our own "kit". If your not familiar with Christian Sturm's site: http://www.supercubproject.com/ go there and see the drawings section where pretty much all of the parts drawings are there for the early supercubs. I am not aware of any other aircraft you can build from scratch from factory plans. See marty's site: http://martyfeehan.xanga.com/ for what has got to be the ultimate scratch builder plane in my opinion. His is a 4 place but can be built 2 place tandem. Many of the kit aircraft major assemblies would bolt right up to an original Piper certified aircraft if it was legal. I am going to go out on a limb here a little so the manufacturers can have at me but I think you could "probably" buy a fuselage from Bushwacker, main wings from Dakota cubs, tail pieces from Univair and gear from CubCrafters and probably without to much (if any) modification build yourself a pretty fine airplane. I just chose that order off-hand and bet you could mix and match depending on your needs. The kits have it hands down to any other means of doing this but just pointing out that if you want a cub you can have a cub and the availability of these other means actually probably helps the kit companies since a person can start dreaming about building a super cub from scratch and then after getting excited about it decide to build a kit instead. One thing they all have in common- you have to cover and paint them..

Tiger cub
12-09-2010, 07:36 PM
Amen to that. What qsmx440 said.

pittsdriver
12-09-2010, 11:54 PM
We have five Backcountry/ Turbine/ Smith Cubs going together here. Mine is in the final finishing stages. PM me and I'll share a lot of info with you.

Steve Pierce
12-10-2010, 08:31 AM
There is the Super-18 Kit.

I agree, the Dakota Cub Super 18 kit is made of all PMA certified parts.

Dave Prizio
12-10-2010, 01:23 PM
You all have been a great help. Thanks. I have learnd a lot already.

I agree that Cub-type planes need more attention in the experimental community. I hope to make sure they get it.

emflys
12-10-2010, 03:05 PM
Awesome Dave! I know an S-7S you can look at...oh...wait.... Looking forward to seeing the article!

Amy
12-10-2010, 05:53 PM
I agree, the Dakota Cub Super 18 kit is made of all PMA certified parts.

:cool: They are all also used on the certified Super 18 so they have been exhaustively tested to Part 23 requirements :up The only things not PMA'd are the owner-produced parts!

Olibuilt
12-15-2010, 07:08 AM
If you are building a plane with 180 hp and more, I would consider the wing spar and strut kit from Aeronef Montreal Inc. Weight less than 10 pounds more for the spar kit for 2400 pound gross weight. Approve here in Canada

Aeronef Montreal
Tel. : 450-661-4250
FAX : 450-661-2958

pittsdriver
12-15-2010, 08:45 PM
My Turbine/Backcountry has the spar doubler mod and a 2400# gross. Don

WyoDave
12-25-2011, 08:53 PM
Did this article ever come out? I was looking forward to it.

AntiCub
12-26-2011, 03:01 AM
Yes, earlier this year. If you have a subscription you can read it on their web site.

Phil

Nocub
12-26-2011, 10:20 AM
http://javroninc.com/index.cfm/pageid/26

http://javroninc.com/index.cfm/pageid/42

Javron in Brainerd, MN makes complete PA-18 / PA-12 / PA-11 and J-3 kits.

Would like to this this "kit" as well.

AntiCub
01-24-2012, 10:23 PM
Yes, earlier this year. If you have a subscription you can read it on their web site.

Phil

My Bad, just came out.

Phil

6.6flylow
02-18-2012, 10:43 PM
Well it's $80,000 to $100,000 for a finished Supercub experimental. That will cruise at 110mph. Vs a Vans RV9 finished for $60,000 and cruises at 178mph! It just depends on your mission your flying. Super cubs are a niche market airplane. Not everyone wants or needs one.

AntiCub
02-19-2012, 05:05 AM
My mission is in between. I don't need Cub off airport performance, but do want to go into some slightly rough shorter strips. But I want to do cross countries in a reasonable time too. That's why I'm building the 140mph Patrol.

Phil

GregA
02-19-2012, 09:17 PM
I would be surprised if you could build an RV-9 for $60k. I tried to be pretty frugal, though I got a new engine, and ended up with more like $95k. I'm sure one could do it for $80k if you got a used engine and scrounged for avionics etc. but everything new will cost you more than $60k.

Greg

Dave Prizio
02-20-2012, 12:33 PM
I just don't think it makes a lot of sense to compare an RV to any of the Super Cub kits. They are different planes made for different missions. BTW, I think you may be a bit light on your completed RV price, and with some serious penny pinching you can build a Super Cub for less money too, but that is not really the point.

If you want a slick cross country plane that is a bit tight on space and useful load, but goes fast and handles well, then by all means build an RV. They obviously are great planes that thousands of people love to build and fly. If on the other hand, you love backcountry flying, setting down on a 500 foot long sand bar to fish for the afternoon, then you need a different plane. Also, if 2 big guys want to go camping for a week, unless your RV is an RV-10 (for about $200K), you simply do not have the room or the useful load to pull it off.

If you want to talk about value I think the better thing to focus on is that you have a number of attractive Super Cub-type kits available that will give you some great performance for about half the cost of a similar new, certificated airplane. And by building it yourself you can make it exactly the way you want it.

Dave Prizio

courierguy
02-20-2012, 03:50 PM
I had 43 K in my Rans S-7S upon completion. Not counting the later added Airstreaks and wheel skis. That was in '07 and things have gone up a bit at the factory since then. 700 hours labor, free....

AntiCub
02-20-2012, 07:30 PM
The cost estimates were definitly based on new engines, new props, new high end avionics etc etc. I'm sure if you could find a good deal on a used engine and prop, and very basic VFR instruments/avionics a person could cut the cost down by $15k to $20k.

I did find it interesting how close they all were in estimated completion cost.

Phil

pittsdriver
02-20-2012, 09:20 PM
Or do like me. I built a RV7 and a Backcountry Super Cub. Best of both worlds. Don

skywagon8a
02-21-2012, 07:14 AM
The cost estimates were definitly based on new engines, new props, new high end avionics etc etc. I'm sure if you could find a good deal on a used engine and prop, and very basic VFR instruments/avionics a person could cut the cost down by $15k to $20k.

I did find it interesting how close they all were in estimated completion cost.

Phil
I enjoyed Dave Prizio's article. Well done. It is amazing how much more is available since my kit arrived. I have been working on my Backcountry kit for the last four years, part time. Currently working on the engine compartment, then it will be ready to assemble. So far I have a little over 1000 hours of labor into it. One of the reasons to build a Cub, among many, was the fact that I have accumulated a lot of stuff over the past 50+ years and felt that it was time to put it to use in one place other than my attic. My point being that a good scrounger can get the cost way down from the completion numbers quoted in the article. It currently looks as though I will have my Cub flying on floats with a 180 engine for $70,000 out of pocket. I know that is likely to be a low number. Just remember 50 years of accumulation.

Clark
02-23-2012, 12:29 AM
Hi Don

You & I must think the same. I have been flying my RV7 since 2006 & I am now building a "Turbine" Backcountry Super Cub. I really surprised myself with this choice as I have always focused on the faster side of my RV "fast carbon fiber". Although I am still in the building process on my Super Cub project, I have never looked back at my choice, as you said, I believe it is the best of both worlds.

dougsappllc
02-23-2012, 12:04 PM
Folks, all this talk about comparing this kit with that kit is good, don't get me wrong, I read every word of it. But without on going support any of the kits mentioned aren't worth much in the final estimation. Will they return calls? Are they "always just to busy" to ship on time? Are their web sites up to date and maintained? Are the manuals up to date and do they fully cover your aircraft? In short will they be there tomorrow to support the kit which you bought today?

Dave Calkins
02-23-2012, 12:19 PM
Good point.

Seems that F.Atlee Dodge and Univair have been here the whole time.

ron
02-23-2012, 03:47 PM
here here I agree with Doug,there has to be some control.Perhaps more honest feedback from recipients.

Dave Prizio
02-23-2012, 04:38 PM
Doug makes some good points. When considering the purchase of any kit it is very important to do your homework. Ask for references and talk to them. Ask the references if they know other builders not on the factory reference list. Ask lots of questions.

Ask to see an assembly manual before you purchase. Are the instructions clear? Do they have diagrams and photos? Have they ever been updated? Do they cover parts that are not included in the kit like firewall forward, wheels and brakes, etc? Is there a builder group -- these can be very helpful.

Does the manufacturer issue service bulletins when they find a problem with their kits? Ask to see some. How many kits have they sold and how many are now flying? Have they been approved for 51% rule compliance by the NKET? If not, why not?

Call the factory at different times of the day. Do they answer the phone? Do they answer your questions promptly? Take a tour of the factory and fly their demo plane if you can. This can be very revealing. You should always fly before you buy.

There is easily another article's worth of stuff to cover on just the topic of evaluating a kit and a company before you buy.

Dave Prizio

AntiCub
02-23-2012, 05:52 PM
Folks, all this talk about comparing this kit with that kit is good, don't get me wrong, I read every word of it. But without on going support any of the kits mentioned aren't worth much in the final estimation. Will they return calls? Are they "always just to busy" to ship on time? Are their web sites up to date and maintained? Are the manuals up to date and do they fully cover your aircraft? In short will they be there tomorrow to support the kit which you bought today?

Doug, those are some of the prime reason I chose a plane that was intended to be built from plans. Everything on the Patrol is either standard off the shelf hardware, or something I can fabricate myself, or at least have fabricated locally.

However, with most Cub clone kits, I understand that most of the major parts are compatible with certified and even between kits, so parts supply is much less of a concern than with most designs. As for builder support, right here is about the biggest wealth of cub building info I can imagine. :)


There is easily another article's worth of stuff to cover on just the topic of evaluating a kit and a company before you buy.

Dave Prizio
Dave, should we be on the look out for an article along those lines soon?
Phil

Dave Prizio
02-24-2012, 12:08 PM
I will run it past the powers that be and see if there is any interest in such an article.

There are definitely benefits to building a Super Cub clone. You are much less dependent on one manufacturer for parts. And even if the assembly instructions that came with your kit are not so hot, there is a wealth of information available that can be tapped here on this forum or just by looking at a Super Cub parked at your local airport.