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Kent
11-27-2010, 05:37 PM
OK folks I'm here because a guy said there were good things and bad things being rumored about the Aeromatic propeller.

First a few facts: Three are only 3 AD notes that apply to the Aeromatic prop. That goes back 54 years. The only one that really applies to any Aeromatic that has passed through my facility is the rpm restriction on the Stinson 165. The AD note does not apply to the Aeromatic on the 165 Bellanca. I've asked the FAA to revise the AD notes to reflect this, but I reckon they are too busy to bother with a small fry.

Neither I nor the FAA has any documented blades coming off of an Aeromatic with one exception. A couple of friends of mine bolted one on an RV-4, 0-320. On second flight he slung a blade. I got the prop to failure analysis. Of the 15 screws that hold the blade in, 10 of them had old rusty breaks, two of them had fresh breaks, the other 3 did not break, pulled out of the wood. So the two flight they made with the Aeromatic was done on 5 screws, not 15.

There was a supposed blade failure on a F24R in Apr 2000. That turned out to be a prop strike. That is a long story.

0-320s and 0360s. Univair got an STC for Aeromatic on a Beech 23 160hp 0-320. Univair supercharged an 0-360 to SL and did a vibration analysis for the FAA. It passed. I have a copy of the letter from the FAA approving it.

There are a number of people using the Aeromatic on 0-320, one guy in northern Canada has about 500 hours on his. He has no broken screws.

I made a prop for my 0-360 powered Bellanca but I loaned it to DakotaCub.com. I am building another one now with intent to put it on my 0-360 Bellanca.

There is a Pekkerhead by the name of Montague on the Swift club web site that bad mouths the Aeromatic. He has a pal by the name of Lovely that does likewise. People that are technically incompetant should not be in a mentor position. I asked Montague to give details on why he bad mouths it. He said "It is not recommended". He didn't say who didn't recommend it, the FAA don't seem to have a problem.

There have been over 14,000 Aeromatic built and one would assume they all were on an airplane at least part of the time.

There is a lot more to this story. My time and space is limited.

Kent

qsmx440
11-27-2010, 05:46 PM
While your here... I'm sure these are not approved LSA (ground adjustable only) but I'd like to be wrong? Comment?

Kent
11-27-2010, 07:24 PM
No, the Aeromatic is not approved for LSA at this time. When the experts were drafting the rules I reckon they assumed that any variable pitch prop has to have some kind of pilot control. They likely didn't even know there was such a thing as an automatic variable pitch prop.

I plan to petition the rules commitee to allow the Aeromatic. I also will ask for a 12# increase in GW because it is a safety enhansement installation. They allow GW increases for other safety items like the BRS. So, if they are not dummies they will grant the request.

Dave Calkins
11-27-2010, 08:24 PM
Kent, glad you are here. Yes, there has been much said about the Aeromatic, some good and some bad, mostly just rumors, Whether good or bad.

An old operator/boss of mine had one on an O-235 PA-12 and loved it. He especially like the ability to turn up high RPMS to get out of the hole on ski-takeoffs, then "shift" it for good cruise speed. I respect him and always wanted to try one.

This would be a good time to give us a description of the Aeromatic and also tip us off to who the Cub guys are that run them and what kind of performance range and comparison the Aeromatic has to known props.

There are some great developments in Cub props right now. Some are very expensive for a fixed-pitch prop, some are just plain expensive (MT). How does the Aeromatic compare??

Thanks for you comments. DAVE

Fortysix12
11-27-2010, 08:51 PM
Is the Aeromatic the one that is automatic? I don't know anything about them. Do you have one for the 320 E2D?

swoeric
11-27-2010, 10:29 PM
yes please educate us. I fly a c85 and looking for all that i can get. is the aeromatic viable how do they compare to multi blade composites. how do they price compared to other options

Kent
11-27-2010, 10:58 PM
Check my web site aeromatic.com.

I did a prop for a chap with a Cub back east. He went to Sentimental Journey at Lock Haven and as I remember he told me that he was outperforming everything in his class.

It is certified on a bunvh of Cubs, J3C, PA-11,12,12S,14,16,18,19,20,22 and J5C.

The prop allows your engine to develop 100%HP whatever atmospheric conditions prevail.

I loaned one to DakotaCub.com and I'm waiting for some test results.

The price is $4950 right now but I will have to raise the price before too long.

There have been a lot of them put on different airplanes via 337 field approval. I am adding data to my web site showing how to make that happen. As you all know, FAA inspectors come in all sizes and shapes, some with limited knowledge. To be an FAA employee one of the requirements is that they have to be able to read, write, speak and understand the English language. Unfortunately there are a large chunk of them that really don't meet those minimum qualifications.

There are some testomonies on my web aeromatic.com, take a look.

Kent
11-27-2010, 10:59 PM
Check my web site aeromatic.com.

I did a prop for a chap with a Cub back east. He went to Sentimental Journey at Lock Haven and as I remember he told me that he was outperforming everything in his class.

It is certified on a bunvh of Cubs, J3C, PA-11,12,12S,14,16,18,19,20,22 and J5C.

The prop allows your engine to develop 100%HP whatever atmospheric conditions prevail.

I loaned one to DakotaCub.com and I'm waiting for some test results.

The price is $4950 right now but I will have to raise the price before too long.

There have been a lot of them put on different airplanes via 337 field approval. I am adding data to my web site showing how to make that happen. As you all know, FAA inspectors come in all sizes and shapes, some with limited knowledge. To be an FAA employee one of the requirements is that they have to be able to read, write, speak and understand the English language. Unfortunately there are a large chunk of them that really don't meet those minimum qualifications.

There are some testomonies on my web aeromatic.com, take a look.

fabricfan
11-27-2010, 11:18 PM
But, do they smell good? :D

cubdriver2
11-28-2010, 12:28 AM
I talked to the guy at Lock Haven and he loves the prop, I think it's on a J5

Glenn

Dave Calkins
11-28-2010, 12:38 AM
Kent, I went to your website. http://www.aeromatic.com/

Somewhere over the years I had heard it said or read that the Aeromatic was not legal on the O-320 or maybe it was something like "...not on anything larger than an O-235 Lyc....".

Where could that have come from?

DAVE

PS what lengths are available?

Amy
11-28-2010, 12:59 AM
Check my web site aeromatic.com.


I loaned one to DakotaCub.com and I'm waiting for some test results.



I remember picking that up via golf cart! PM me for more info--I will find out what the plan is. I don't believe it has been mounted yet as we were doing some unrelated flight testing for a new STC over the past month.

I am excited to see it in action!

d.grimm
11-28-2010, 09:05 AM
I talked to the guy with the stock PA12 at Sentimental Journey at length.
Watched him take off behind another sock PA12 and the performance was
a lot better and the sound (RPM's) was a lot higher. Nice looking and performing prop. Always had a crowd around it.
Dave

kevin
11-28-2010, 12:57 PM
I have a friend of mine who has one on his Ranger powered PT-19. He swears by that prop. I also have a friend of mine who installed one on his PA-12 O 320. He seemed pleased with it but at the time was still experimenting with it to give him the best performance. I haven't spoken with him since the Summer to see how he has progressed.

Kent
11-28-2010, 02:23 PM
It has been STC'd on the Beech 23 by Univair. It was 160hp 0320.

It has been put on a number of 0-320s with 337.

It passed vib test on 0-360 with FAA approval.

I am not well trained in navigating around on these forums, so give me some slack on ops procedures.

I have not gotten any feedback from anyone complaining about vibration on 0-320. When I get my prop back from DakotaCub I will put it on my 0-360 Bellanca. I will instrument it to ckeck for vibration.

behindpropellers
11-28-2010, 02:45 PM
Kent-

I remember that you had it posted on your website two years ago that you were having problems with vibration on 0320 and 0360 motors.

Did you do further testing? Were design changes made?


EDIT...

Did a search and came up with this:

http://www.supercub.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8536&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=aeromatic&start=30


Tim

citabrickr
11-29-2010, 08:40 AM
Check my web site aeromatic.com.

I did a prop for a chap with a Cub back east. He went to Sentimental Journey at Lock Haven and as I remember he told me that he was outperforming everything in his class.

.

I was one of the mechanics and did a couple of the many test flights we did to that PA12 to set the prop up. It was fairly conservatively set from the factory, the owner wanted maximum climb performance. Took quite a few flights to dial it in just right, and we made some misinterpretations of the instructions for setting it up. The prop does operate oddly till you get used to it and some of our seemingly small changes made HUGE changes in performance, both good and bad. My advice is to make VERY SMALL weight changes to get it where you want it!

Dave Calkins
11-29-2010, 12:22 PM
Please tell us more. Do you maybe have some photos?

This is exciting and new to me.

"new"!? When was it designed? :D

Kent
11-29-2010, 12:42 PM
The Everel propeller company got two pattens circa 1938 or 39. It was a one blade wood prop automatically variable. They certified it on a Taylorcraftl They farmed it out to the Koppers Co. I think at the beginning of WW-II. Koppers did a lot of engineering, made a two blade prop for the military. The military used it on many trainers and laissons PT-19, 23, Stearmans, L2, Stinson L5, Grummun Wigeons, Cessna Bobcats and others. Koppers even built one dual 4-blade counter rotating prop of about 14' diameter. They also did engineering analysis for application on a R2800 but no production. Koppers sold it to Univair circa 1961. Univair sold it twice, first 1985, had to take it back then sold again circa 1992 to Jeffery Brown near St. Louis. He was killed in plane crash. I bought it from his widow in 1995. Stored it for 5 years. I got up and running with CRS in 2000 and got PMA in 2005.

Go to notplanejane.com and you can see a photo of the one bladed Aeromatic prop.

garyh
11-29-2010, 08:19 PM
i bought one of kent tarver's aeromatic props about 2 years ago for my 1959 pa18 w/c90-12. with my mac 7147 prop i could only turn 2380 rpm on t.o., now with the aeromatic i can turn 2625+ on t.o., needless to say the performance is remarkably improved. i'm happy with my prop and kent tarver.
best to kent, he is a fine gentleman.

gary

Grassroots
11-30-2010, 09:36 AM
Gary, what's your indicated and/or gps cruise speed with this set-up?

StewartB
11-30-2010, 10:04 AM
Is there any potential to make the blades from aluminum rather than wood? The concept is interesting but wood blades disqualifies it for me. Blade retention issues seem easier addressed with aluminum but I'm an unqualified dummy (or is that "qualified dummy") about props in general, let alone prop design and construction.

Stewart

behindpropellers
11-30-2010, 10:43 AM
Is there any potential to make the blades from aluminum rather than wood?

I'm curious why you do not like wood blades? Because of durability in respect to the weather?

Tim

StewartB
11-30-2010, 10:49 AM
Mostly. I park outside. Alaska has a wildly variable temp and humidity range. Not a good match for hardwoods. Aluminum seems better suited for my use. Composites are gaining credibility so that's another question for Kent. Is there any thought of using composites in lieu of wood?

Stewart

Dave Calkins
11-30-2010, 10:55 AM
I can think of a couple of reasons:

Weather, durability with rock nicks or other debris thrown by big tires, and also possibly as a solution to blade retention/fastener torque "issue".

On another note, for those of you interested, I learned yesterday that a friend has an 88" Aeromatic to go on something like a 260 HP engine.

Kent, can we get an 88" to go on a 4-cylinder Lycoming in the, say, 210HP range?? :D

garyh
11-30-2010, 01:57 PM
Gary, what's your indicated and/or gps cruise speed with this set-up?

grassroots,
i can't recall the actual numbers but i do recall that cruise increased 2-3 mph ias over my mac 7147 prop and i think it was a cruise prop. i really bought it for the t.o. performance and who really cares in these cubs if you are going 90 or 95, it's not going to change anything anyway. i've not had any problems with rock chips because the leading prop edges are metalized. the only problem i have is answering all the questions about "what kind of prop is that" and "how does it work" and i get that everywhere. it's been a great climb/cruise/ conversation piece prop and has met my expectations.
happy holidays

gary

Steve Pierce
12-01-2010, 07:56 AM
Wood blades keep the weight off the nose but I believe Kent has a composite overlay option. I met a lady at Talkeetna with a wood prop on her Pacer and she used a prop cover.

garyh
12-02-2010, 01:17 PM
you're right steve, tarver's props are covered with an composite/epoxy covering and if you didn't know they were wood you couldn't tell. his props are piece of art , absolutely beautiful. total weight up front is about 30#, my old mac was 22-23# but worth the extra wt.

gary

dynoluc
12-06-2010, 11:46 PM
144 I install a aeromatic pro143p on my continental o 200 it was like bolting a second engine

I am happy with the performence

thanks Kent

luc levasseur Timmins ontario142

kevin
12-12-2010, 09:03 PM
I have a friend who has an Aeromatic prop on a Cub. He is looking for a spinner. Does anybody know of a spinner that will work with a Cub? Kent, do you sell spinners as well?

scotthayd
02-08-2012, 12:31 AM
I'd love to have one of these for my O290 135 hp pacer.
Seems like the pacer would have pretty big benefits on both ends of the spectrum, since it has potential to be fast; but it would also be nice to get off that lake with skis on...
Anybody tried one yet? On a shortwing or otherwise?

robertc
02-08-2012, 02:02 AM
I'd love to have one of these for my O290 135 hp pacer.
Seems like the pacer would have pretty big benefits on both ends of the spectrum, since it has potential to be fast; but it would also be nice to get off that lake with skis on...
Anybody tried one yet? On a shortwing or otherwise?

135 hp Pacer at Johnson Creek with Aeromatic
5335

scotthayd
02-08-2012, 04:25 PM
Hmmm.
Does anybody know who this person is?
I would love to hear a report!
Especially given that these props (I think) need to be calibrated against density altitude.

Having essentially a constant speed prop on one of these little planes seems like a pretty big advantage.

kevin
02-08-2012, 04:55 PM
I would speak to Tarver himself.

robertc
02-08-2012, 06:26 PM
Hmmm.
Does anybody know who this person is?
I would love to hear a report!
Especially given that these props (I think) need to be calibrated against density altitude.

Having essentially a constant speed prop on one of these little planes seems like a pretty big advantage.

Lee Hannibal
Rathdrum, ID

That is the information I have. You will have to be a detective and find out the rest.

WWhunter
02-09-2012, 02:19 PM
Yes, contact Tarver! He is a very nice guy to talk to and will help as much as he can. He is the current owner of the prop line.
http://www.aeromatic.com/
I was trying to get one installed on my Champ but hit a road block due to its highly modified from original configuration. I think it could have been done and would have been a great addition to an already good plane but I have to many irons in the fire and just couldn't commit the time to getting it approved. Shouldn't be any issue though with the plane you have as it was approved on a great many older planes.
Keith

haphogan
03-17-2012, 01:58 PM
the first Aeromatic prop I saw was on a 85HP Swift . The only reason I new at that time it was an Aeromatic prop, the owner told me so. He said with the engine he had in his airplane he was able to get better performance.

I talked to owners of Stinsons, Bellancas, Luscombe, or the pilot of any aircraft I saw with one. They all had positive comments on their Props.

dplunkt
03-17-2012, 03:37 PM
Our airport manager out here just finished a beautiful restoration of a fairchild 24. He put a new aeromatic on. I asked him his thoughts and he said he only gained a little in cruse (4 to 5 mph) which, of course is better than a reduction. He said where the aeromatic really shines for him is in takeoff. He's still getting used to it but he says it gave him a significant increase in climb anad a significant reduction in ground roll. So, the bottom line is he has greatly improved his takeoff capabilities without any loss in cruise.

Dave Calkins
03-17-2012, 03:47 PM
Our airport manager out here just finished a beautiful restoration of a fairchild 24. He put a new aeromatic on. I asked him his thoughts and he said he only gained a little in cruse (4 to 5 mph) which, of course is better than a reduction. He said where the aeromatic really shines for him is in takeoff. He's still getting used to it but he says it gave him a significant increase in climb anad a significant reduction in ground roll. So, the bottom line is he has greatly improved his takeoff capabilities without any loss in cruise.

What engine on the Fairchild?

I've been fascinated by these props forever.

haphogan
03-17-2012, 11:34 PM
Dwayne Cole had a Aeromatic prop on his chipmunk with a Lycoming engine

dplunkt
09-02-2012, 05:07 PM
Dave, yea this answer is 5 months later...the Fairchild 24 I was refereing to has the ranger inline engine.

Dave Calkins
09-03-2012, 12:49 PM
Thanks.

I'm still fascinated, and would love to hear what Kent and/or Dakota did with the prop on the O-360.

P.S......... some one mentioned that they weren't interested in whether the a/c was doing 90 mph or 95 mph in cruise. Heck, when you're flying somewhere with other Cubs in the group, the faster one is always envied.!!

Kent
11-15-2013, 10:52 PM
Actually I think you are thinking about Art School. He had an Aeromatic on his Chipmunk when it was powered with a 200HP Ranger.

Kent
11-15-2013, 11:00 PM
Sorry guys that I've been gone for so long. About the time I joined the forum I began to get really busy. Now that the Gestapo FAA forced me to give up my PMAs on the Aeromatic I will be more active in the experimental market. I am trying to get my Certified Repair Station back and when I do I will be able to support the prop in the certified market. I have a few old blades that I can restore by converting them into composite instead of the original nitrate coating.

I still have the prop I made for my 0-360 powered Bellanca Cruisair. My FSDO guy seem to be OK on putting it on with a field approval 337. I am making an effort to get it on the plane and do some comparative flight tests against the Hartzell CS that is on it now.

Tom Jones
11-16-2013, 12:34 AM
Art Scholl was using a GO-435 Lyc. and Aeromatic on both of the Chipmunks.

Tom

kevin
11-16-2013, 10:38 AM
Kent,

I have heard that Univair is possibly going to be taking over the Aeromatic propellors and provide spinners. Can you give any information about this?

Kent
11-16-2013, 12:05 PM
No way. I think Univair wants to get as far away from Aeromatic as they can get.

Pacerfgoe
11-16-2013, 01:52 PM
Now that the Gestapo FAA forced me to give up my PMAs on the Aeromatic I will be more active in the experimental market. I am trying to get my Certified Repair Station back



Kent, Sorry to hear about this.

Does this mean you cannot supply "certified" blades now? How about an overhaul on a certified prop? Whats with the FAA....do they have a bone to pick with you?
I think this prop is really what General Aviation needs as a best for both worlds prop. It must be so nice to get that engine spinning 2800 RPM on takeoff where its making some power, and then RPM down as speed builds during cruise.
I have had a F200 hub sitting on my bench for a few years, and decided to see how it fits on my O-290.....to my horror I find out the bolt pattern is smaller....must be for a smaller contenential or something. Still looking for another.

Someday, I'll have one on my Pacer....

dplunkt
11-16-2013, 03:51 PM
Hi Kent.

I've still got my hub at your shop. Why did they make you give up the PMA?


Dan P.

Kent
11-16-2013, 07:55 PM
Hi Dan, I am not very adapt at this forum stuff so I don't know how big a post or reply I can make. But I have a fairly brief description of how the Seattle MIDO treated me wherein I had no choice but to surrender my PMAs. Is there a limit as to how many words I can post or reply? Of course there has to be a limit but how about a couple of pages? Also as I read the rules for using the forum I see that we can not use cruse words, vulgar, etc. So I don't have much good to say about some of the FAA employees. As a matter of fact many of them are Scum Bags. And these Scum Bags have the power of the Administrator to enforce their opinion over the regulations. I have respect for virtually everyone I dealt with at VNY MIDO and some of the engineers at LA ACO. My opinion of certain other FAA employes I have dealt with might be considered derogatory to the point that I may be violating forum rules. My letter to Joe Escobar, editor of DOM magazine consists of a good full page. If I can't post that much on the forum then if all of you that are interested will send me your email address (if that is OK with forum guru) I will forward to you the gory details. Kent

Kent
11-16-2013, 09:11 PM
When I was part of Art Scholl's operation, we put a 200 Ranger in the Chipmunk.
Later, after I had gone on my way, Scholl got another Chipmunk and it had an opposed 6 in it. I was never aware of just exactly what model engine that was.
This second Chipmunk had retractable (Bellanca) landing gear.
I think he sold the first Chipmunk.

This is from an old friend of mine. He worked for Art as mentioned in his email to me. Kent

Kent
11-16-2013, 09:23 PM
Actually Univair has a few unfinished spinner kits that they had made when they had the Aeromatic prop. I think they still have a few kits left. I have sent customers to them and I have bought a couple of them myself. Univair sold the Aeromatic circa 1985 to a chap in Britt, IO. He defaulted on the sale and Univair took it back and sold it to a chap near St. Louis circa early 1990s. He got killed in a plane crash. I bought it from his widow. It consisted of 13 TCs. I later sold all the Flottorp TCs, which included the Beech Roby R002/R003 series. I kept the two TCs on the Aeromatic. Univair as not made any noise to me about buying it back. Kent

Pacerfgoe
11-16-2013, 09:35 PM
Kent, Check your PM's

Rick-CAS
11-16-2013, 10:51 PM
I fly a Great Lakes biplane with a Warner 185 radial engine and Aeromatic prop. It performs great with this prop and I have no problem flying behind a well maintained Aeromatic.

Kent
11-16-2013, 11:24 PM
I'm sorry, I am a newby on forums, what are PM's?

Den
11-17-2013, 10:16 AM
Personal Messages

Kent
11-17-2013, 10:56 PM
Den, do they come to my email inbox or do I find them on this site?

Pacerfgoe
11-18-2013, 12:04 AM
go to the top of the page and just right of centre there is a "notifications" tab ...click on it

kevin
11-18-2013, 12:06 AM
Kent,

I have heard that Univair is possibly going to be taking over the Aeromatic propellors and provide spinners. Can you give any information about this?

Kent,

For some reason I said Univair but meant to say Aircraft Spruce and Specialty. I had heard that Aircraft Spruce was possibly going to take over the Aeromatic propeller and make/sell spinners for this. Do you have any information about this?

Kent
11-18-2013, 01:35 PM
Do I owe anyone any answers? I am so confused with this forum procedure I feel like a hornet caught in prop wash. Kent

kevin
11-19-2013, 04:02 PM
Kent, the forums are quite simple.

Once you log in with your name and password, you can answer any of the questions you may wish. If you go to the bottom of the last posting on the page, you can type your message in the "quick reply" box then click the "Post Quick Reply" button underneath the box you are writing in. You can write your responses as long as you like them to be. If you want to include someone's post in your response, you can click on the "Reply With Quote" button. This will make it look like you are answering or commenting on that previous poster's comment. You may receive messages from other members in this community called "Private Messages". These messages are sent between two people. Nobody else can see them and it is like a regular email. To send a private message to someone, just click on their name and you will see a drop down menu with an option to send a private message to that person. The only rules are obviously, no swearing and no obscene vulgarity. There are women who are a part of this community. Also, no listing for sale items in the postings. They like to have those type of postings in the dedicated classifieds section.

Based off of your previous postings, I think you have the basics of this online forum pretty much worked out. I think you have a wealth of information and would not want to see you leave this online community or not post due to frustrations with it. I think that there are some members here who would find value to hear to what you have to say.

I hope you find my posting useful.

Kevin

PA 11 cub
12-14-2015, 07:51 PM
Just curious if Aeromatic Props are still available and has the certification PMA still being revoked by the FAA ? Are these props experimental only ? Thanks

Mark_Moyle
12-15-2015, 12:47 AM
Kent Tarver...is on the Bearhawk group....has nothing nice to say about the FAA. Has given up on the Aeromatic props...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Kent
12-15-2015, 05:47 PM
Is the Aeromatic the one that is automatic? I don't know anything about them. Do you have one for the 320 E2D?

Yes, I am putting together a Mustang II with an 0-320 E2D engine. I think I will be flying it early spring/summer. kt

Kent
12-15-2015, 05:52 PM
I haven't totally given up on certified props but it is getting to be not worth the hassle trying to keep out of the FAA sights. They have no love for small people.

I will be working with a Sen. Reid's staff member. We'll see. kt

Mark_Moyle
12-15-2015, 06:58 PM
Ok.....Kent....I'm still interested in a prop for the Pacer with an O320 B2B


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

sportingrifle
12-15-2015, 07:52 PM
Kent....a friend has an Aeromatic on an Aeronca Champ (C-90) that I get to fly. Great prop, performs well and runs really smooth. Only problem is we can't seem to stop it slinging oil. What are we doing wrong. Have replaced the seals. Thanks Kevin.

rsrguy3
05-07-2016, 12:10 AM
Good luck with the senator.