PDA

View Full Version : Any Fabric experts here



Senior
06-11-2010, 08:33 AM
Ya I thought so :lol:

Just started covering my plane. It's an old project that has sat neglected since 79. I recieved all the Fabric with it but it's Blue River Ceconite 102??
Anybody familiar with this stuff? I covered a elevator with it using PolyTac & planned on using the Poly system to finish it. The fabric is very tight weaved & a little harder to stick around tight bends but irons out very nice & I'm sure will take less PolyBrush to seal it.
Any reasons I shouldn't continue along this road??


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Fabric_1_001.jpg

And I couldn't help but add this old add :lol: :lol:


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/BP_slogan.jpg

Jimmy M.
06-11-2010, 09:18 AM
Whatever you do DON'T mix products from two different systems.
I believe Blue River is a water based system and will not be compatible
with Stitts products. If the ceconite is clean and there is no product embedded in it you may be OK but you should check with the manufacturer

good luck with your project..............Jim

jgerard
06-11-2010, 10:25 AM
Yeah, you don't want to use the blue river fabric. It's pre-coated and should not be used with a solvent based system. Are you building a certified airplane?

Jason

Steve Pierce
06-11-2010, 01:28 PM
Jason, What is it pre-coated with? I take it the fabric itself is not generic Ceconite?

Senior
06-12-2010, 08:55 AM
Yeah, you don't want to use the blue river fabric. It's pre-coated and should not be used with a solvent based system. Are you building a certified airplane?

Jason

Not certified.
What sort of re-action should I be looking for??
2 days now & it looks just fine?

pzinck
06-12-2010, 09:50 AM
I had a maule covered in blue ribbon in the early 80's. The reaction was within a couple weeks the paint was peeling and tapes lifting. Dont use their top coat chemicals. I have heard a few people claim it was good stuff. The guy who did mine never used it before or after, possibly his application was not good. I maeant blue river, it certainly was not blue ribbon material. Spending this much effort, i would use the tried and true stuff. I think the ceconite was the same though, just top coat was different. Has the old fabric been been kept away from uv?

Senior
06-12-2010, 09:58 AM
pzinck: I heard that too about the Blue river System. Not Good
Material stored in a garage, it appears good still in original cardboard tube, any way I could test it to be sure?

All I want to use is the actual cloth which is stamped Cenconite 102.

cruiser
06-12-2010, 01:47 PM
I don't remember the specifics exactly but mixing products is what killed Steve Wittman. Seems as though the glue joint failed and the fabric separated from the elevator with the resulting loss of control. As Ray Stits so famously says, "read the manual". Jim

pak
06-12-2010, 01:53 PM
A short history, at least around here. Blue River came out in the 70s. It is a water based system. A lot of the guys around here jumped on it as it was safer and didn't stink, besides very few used respirators then. The system, in the field, failed miserably. Cracked in the cold, and was corrosive to aluminum. The company went out of business. I wouldn't use the fabric with any system, especially solvent based. I have some blue river tape and it is coated with something. I doubt you would get much coating adhesion with any system on the coated fabric. YMMV.
Pete

pzinck
06-12-2010, 01:59 PM
http://raanz.org.nz/techproject/FAA%20AC43.13%20b/Chapter%2002.pdf

Steve Pierce
06-12-2010, 02:05 PM
That fabric looks awful yellow to me. Fabric is about $10 a yd. and comes wider than it did back when that was probably made.

DW
06-12-2010, 02:51 PM
Don't take the chance with that old fabric. Your at the stage of the rebuild where just a little more work will make for a system that you know will last for 30+ years of worry free flying.

DW

mikeo
06-12-2010, 03:08 PM
just get generic dacron from spruce its all the same thats what I use Mike Olson

supercrow
06-13-2010, 06:38 AM
Hi Guys: The fabric is some of the least expensive material in a job like this and any thing but buying new is just not worth the risk! Reid

Dave Calkins
06-13-2010, 01:56 PM
Hi Guys: The fabric is some of the least expensive material in a job like this and any thing but buying new is just not worth the risk! Reid

My thoughts EXACTLY! Why would anyone take a chance? :oops:

mike mcs repair
06-13-2010, 01:59 PM
Hi Guys: The fabric is some of the least expensive material in a job like this and any thing but buying new is just not worth the risk! Reid

My thoughts EXACTLY! Why would anyone take a chance? :oops:

And since that fabric is at least 31 years old already....

MollyM531
06-14-2010, 12:40 PM
The most important reason you shouldn't continue on this road:

You're mixing systems. HUGE no-no, especially on a certified airplane. Pick one system and stick with it.

Also, personally, I wouldn't use product that's over 20-years old. Most chemicals only have a shelf life of 10 years at the most.
I would have to say that my life is worth a new $3200 covering system.

If you'd like more info or a quote, give me a call. I'm more than happy to help out.

Molly McNamara Dean
Superflite, Inc.
800-323-0611

Senior
06-15-2010, 08:47 AM
Again " All I want to use is the actual cloth which is stamped Cenconite 102." & it's not a certified plane.
I am using the Poly system which is & has always been compatable with Cenconite 102. The Cenconite 102 I have is still in original packing with no UV exposure. The only difference I can see is it's tinted yellow. One poster above says it's coated with something, when asked, he hasn't stated what or even where he got that info so I can confirm it. A test piece I am almost to "silver" with, shows no problems, it bonds super tight with PolyTac, & sealed real nice with PolyBrush.

Thanks for the offer Molly, I'm sure you'd like me to try your system.
& I'm sure it is a good one.
But we have covered many planes now with the Poly system (certified & uncertified" & like it.

Dave Calkins
06-15-2010, 01:14 PM
Senior, how does the polybrush seem to act on this precoated fabric?

I would think that if it permeates the coated fabric and encapsulates it like normal, it might be okay to use. However, I only "mix systems" when I'm experimenting.

You mentioned: "...sealed with poly spray..." in your first post, then "...almost to 'silver'...and sealed real nice with PolySpray..." in your latest post. ??????????????????????????????

Senior
06-16-2010, 07:47 AM
Dave: It shrinks with heat exactly like any other Cenci 102 we've used, the glue holds it just as tight as normal Cenci, the PolyBrush permeates the fabric like normal. The only difference we can see is it's slightly stiffer when folding around the frame to glue.

Sorry about the confusion, I meant PolyBrush 1st post not PolySpray :oops:

Skybolt31
06-16-2010, 10:22 AM
[The only difference I can see is it's tinted yellow. One poster above says it's coated with something, when asked, he hasn't stated what or even where he got that info so I can confirm it.

I looked at the Blue River System with great interest back in the late 80's as it seemed like a better concept for getting the finish to attach to the smooth fibers of polyester fabric. When a plane is covered with cotton, the dope attaches very easily because of the natural nap of the fabric giving the dope thousands of nooks and crannys to mechanically attach to. Ceconite which is polyester is a very smooth fiber is not so easy to mechanically attach, so if butyerate dope is used, it will peel off in sheets shortly there after. Probably would look fine for a test piece done like you have done. So people used nitrate dope, randoproof, dacproofer and polyspray to better stick to the smooth fibers. These methods were big improvements but probably still don't come close to the bond that can be achieved with cotton. SO, along comes the blue river people and they say the fabric is precoated with some special stuff that will chemically bond with their coatings. Sounded like a great idea, but didn't seem to work out in the long run. So the yellow tint on your fabric is a precoating that is supposed to chemically react with the blue river stuff.

Obviously you are free to experiment, but don't fool yourself into thinking that the fabric you are using is the same as ceconite 102

Bruce Green

behindpropellers
06-16-2010, 10:37 AM
Again " All I want to use is the actual cloth which is stamped Cenconite 102." & it's not a certified plane.
I am using the Poly system which is & has always been compatable with Cenconite 102. The Cenconite 102 I have is still in original packing with no UV exposure. The only difference I can see is it's tinted yellow. One poster above says it's coated with something, when asked, he hasn't stated what or even where he got that info so I can confirm it. A test piece I am almost to "silver" with, shows no problems, it bonds super tight with PolyTac, & sealed real nice with PolyBrush.

Thanks for the offer Molly, I'm sure you'd like me to try your system.
& I'm sure it is a good one.
But we have covered many planes now with the Poly system (certified & uncertified" & like it.

Senior-

Let me say this a bit more bluntly....

Get off of your wallet. An airplane is no place to cut corners, experimental or certified. Either do it correctly or go find another vehicle to cobble together.

Tim

Senior
06-17-2010, 07:48 AM
Tim: Make no mistake, I am leaning that way. As far as my wallet, well it may not be as thick as yours :-? I just paid $300 to get a $179 (your price) Taylorcraft windshield up here in Kanada.

Skybolt: thanks for that, finally a comment that contains more factual info than most of the replys.

aktango58
06-17-2010, 09:34 AM
Senior,

you must be fairly new.

If folks included their resume's with posts, you would have been convinced after the first couple of posts. you asked for fabric experts...

For GAWD SAKES, Jason is the guy teaching us how to do fabric, and does LOTS of fabric work. (also the rep for stewarts if you must know) If he says it is coated, and Pznic talks about delamination in flight, related to the type of system, take notice.

Again it is said that the yellowing is a coating...

Imagine getting your 1969 convertible Camaro all ready to paint, and one fender has a primer (from another guy) that you know will lift when any of your other paint gets on it... what would you do?

Some of the fabric problems with the blue river did not show up immediatly. It took a few years to find the problem.

Sounds like the fabric would make a nice cover for seats at best.

aktango58
06-17-2010, 09:35 AM
Senior,

you must be fairly new.

If folks included their resume's with posts, you would have been convinced after the first couple of posts. you asked for fabric experts...

For GAWD SAKES, Jason is the guy teaching us how to do fabric, and does LOTS of fabric work. (also the rep for stewarts if you must know) If he says it is coated, and Pznic talks about delamination in flight, related to the type of system, take notice.

Again it is said that the yellowing is a coating...

Imagine getting your 1969 convertible Camaro all ready to paint, and one fender has a primer (from another guy) that you know will lift when any of your other paint gets on it... what would you do?

Some of the fabric problems with the blue river did not show up immediatly. It took a few years to find the problem.

Sounds like the fabric would make a nice cover for seats at best.

Senior
06-18-2010, 08:38 AM
Senior,

you must be fairly new.

Well new here, wish I was a little newer

If folks included their resume's with posts, you would have been convinced after the first couple of posts. you asked for fabric experts...

That may well be true, I guess being new here, I don't know who the experts are & when you ask for info on the internet seems quite often you get opinions based hearsay instead of facts. Sometimes it's hard to discern the "chicken little's" of the world from experts who sometimes cut their replys short assuming everybody know what they're refering too.

For GAWD SAKES, Jason is the guy teaching us how to do fabric, and does LOTS of fabric work. (also the rep for stewarts if you must know) If he says it is coated, and Pznic talks about delamination in flight, related to the type of system, take notice.

I didn't know Jason was the expert!
From Pznic's post it sounded like he was talking about the complete Blue River system, which is not what I was asking.

Sounds like the fabric would make a nice cover for seats at best.

You know what, I'm just gonna cover the landing gear with it just because I'm curious.
:cry:

I sincerely apoligize if I offended anybody, it's certainly wasn't intentional, but you internet cruisers know when asking for info it's sometimes hard to discern the armchair pro's from the real ones.

brown bear
06-18-2010, 06:30 PM
I used the blue river to cover a old champ back in the early 90's , I call the guy that sold it and talked to him about the color coat he was saleing and if I could use somthing other than his. He told me I could use butyrate for the color under his stc so I did.
I only owned That Champ 5 or 6 more years but it looked great when I sold it.
Doug

aktango58
06-19-2010, 12:10 AM
Senior,

you must be fairly new.

Well new here, wish I was a little newer

If folks included their resume's with posts, you would have been convinced after the first couple of posts. you asked for fabric experts...

That may well be true, I guess being new here, I don't know who the experts are & when you ask for info on the internet seems quite often you get opinions based hearsay instead of facts. Sometimes it's hard to discern the "chicken little's" of the world from experts who sometimes cut their replys short assuming everybody know what they're refering too.

For GAWD SAKES, Jason is the guy teaching us how to do fabric, and does LOTS of fabric work. (also the rep for stewarts if you must know) If he says it is coated, and Pznic talks about delamination in flight, related to the type of system, take notice.

I didn't know Jason was the expert!
From Pznic's post it sounded like he was talking about the complete Blue River system, which is not what I was asking.

Sounds like the fabric would make a nice cover for seats at best.

You know what, I'm just gonna cover the landing gear with it just because I'm curious.
:cry:

I sincerely apoligize if I offended anybody, it's certainly wasn't intentional, but you internet cruisers know when asking for info it's sometimes hard to discern the armchair pro's from the real ones.


I would like to know how it works out.

You are spot on about the armchair stuff, but you asked for experts, and that was what you got :wink:

Good luck with the project, and post pictures!!!

texmex
06-20-2010, 05:19 AM
Fabric experts. I've never done any fabric covering so no laughing at my question.
I'm soon to cover control surfaces for a 1Design. My cub has a ceconite covering sprayed with Randolph product so I want to go down the same path.
Is the fabric ironed taught or is that done chemically. I'm told it's possible for the novice to over tighten the fabric using the dope method. Can someone give me an idea of how this process works.
I've got and read the Poly Fiber manual but I'm not sure of the differences between this and the Randolph process.
Thanks.

Steve Pierce
06-20-2010, 08:21 AM
Is the fabric ironed taught or is that done chemically. I'm told it's possible for the novice to over tighten the fabric using the dope method. Can someone give me an idea of how this process works.
I've got and read the Poly Fiber manual but I'm not sure of the differences between this and the Randolph process.
Thanks.

Nitrate (the first coat in the dope Randolph process) will shrink anything. When we used cotton it was shrink with a fine mist of water and tautening nitrate and butyrate. Now we use the iron to shrink the polyester fabrics and non-tautening nitrate and butyrate. They still tighten especially over time. When Randolph owned the process you tightened Ceconite to 350 degrees. Now that Poly-Fiber owns it you tighten to 250 degrees if memory serves more correctly. Unless you have a very, very light structure I don't see you over tightening and damaging anything. One thing I like about the dope system is that it is a little tighter than Poly-Fiber and drums less.