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Nathan K. Hammond
04-05-2010, 11:00 PM
Father in-law has a 900' one-way strip in central Kentucky that was established about 2 years ago; no hangar, just a fair weather fun strip. It's listed with the FAA and has an Identifier. The approach and departure is open and clear over a neighbor's 60 acre cow pasture on the back side of the neighbors farm and the runway ends at the fence line. Before putting in the strip and up until this point the neighbor has been great; eager to see the airplane, willing to cut down any trees needed, etc...

But here's the situation...

On Wednesday the 31st, father in-law went out and shot 2 or 3 T/O and Landings. Next day get a call from the neighbor saying the airplane spooked the cows and 2 ran through a barb-wire fence killing themselves..... (Luckily there was a video camera shooting POV from the airplane and clearly shows the cows not being effected by the airplane.) But the neighbor is convinced the airplane caused the problem...

So tonight, there's a message on the phone from the neighbor saying "he thought the cows needed some shade so he planted a tree in the back field (that boarders the runway.)" Father in-law heads out with a flashlight to find a 50' tall tree planted 40' from the end of the runway, square on the center line. Plus three guide wires running out about 60' from the base of the tree to concrete anchors. Not to mention large mounds of dirt dug by a backhoe for this tree. All done in one day.

I'm suppose to get some pictures tomorrow.

So what action can be taken? Was a law broken by hindering an approach/runway? How will this play out? We're calling the local FISDO and AOPA legal in the morning.

Thanks.

nkh :evil:

Iflylower
04-05-2010, 11:17 PM
That stinks! Good luck. Sounds like he made up his mind. People are strange. Not even a call about a perceived problem.

skywagon8a
04-06-2010, 08:04 AM
That does not sound like an FAA issue. Here in Mass it would be State aeronautics and/or local. Strange neighbor, seems like the two of them could have talked it out like adults.

This reminds me of a similar story in Marlboro MA years ago when some large trees at the end of the runway, on the neighbors land, "fell" down in the night. They were put back up with saw protection. Maybe Willyb will chime in on this one.

aktango58
04-06-2010, 08:43 AM
Let the neighbor cool down for a time, and take a walk around and look for k-9 tracks that spooked the cows. (or idiot's with a car that got in or empty shell casings)

If you find the tracks/evidence that it was something else, you have proof that it was not the plane.

If not, show the video to him after he calms down. Remember, it might be his income, at a time when all indipendents are in fear of taxes, that is affected.

Much easier to not care when it is fun, but when it is your wallet that is the issue, things look different.

Not agreeing with either, but offering that I can understand his action.

SteveE
04-06-2010, 08:58 AM
Here is another thought,,,, when you transplant a tree that size,,, they cut a ton of roots,,, or even if he bought it from a nursery....it will take a constant drip of water to even get the tree to live...and that is questionable. The tree will probably die anyway,,, or he will see the error of his ways when he has to water it constantly,, and by then he might be cooled down...

behindpropellers
04-06-2010, 09:34 AM
How much does a cow cost?

scubber
04-06-2010, 09:57 AM
When you say farmer, it sounds like a "hobby" or "weekender". I say that because I've seen may a cow after going through a fence. . . . and it ain't gonna kill them. Cut-up . . yeah . . dead . . . remote chance. As a kid watched dad operate around our (dairy) cattle all the time. The strip was part of the pasture . . and we had to work at getting them out of the way so dad could land. Litterly herded them with the cub to move them so we could take off. Buzzing didn't do a thing for landing. I agree they may spook a little the first time they ever see a plane. . . and then mostly heifers. From then on they are fine. Hell . .you some times had to get out of the cub after herding them with it because they would follow you . . and when your swung around to go . . . they were there 30' away, all eyes and ears. The shadow of the plane can spook cattle. . . . but not start what your neighbor says happened. (Jump and run a few steps)
In short your neighbor has other problems. And they may be personal. Ask to see the cows that died. Ask what the vet said, or if a vet even saw the cattle. If the vet saw the cows . . . he and your video should help solve the problem. (Dr. Papp may chime in if on site) Good Luck. "People Problems" are the worst to solve. Larry Ciszak

mvivion
04-06-2010, 10:24 AM
I BELIEVE that if the strip is listed in the FAA database, the FAA MAY get involved if approaches/departure paths are blocked.

I'd give AOPA a call, and ask their Airports experts the question. I'm betting they'll have some good answers.

MTV

courierguy
04-06-2010, 10:38 AM
Something ain't jiving with your neighbors story. As mentioned by others, he has other problems probably in his life and is going to possibly be unresponsive to a logical solution. I would not even attempt to bring the FAA into it, IF they responded, it'd be years down the road, and they would probably tell you to deal with it on your own.

A careful conversation with your neighbor to attempt to figure out what his problem really is, and your checkbook, may be your most effective solution. Good luck.

I have to mention that when a new neighbor bought 40 acres below my last strip (on 11 acres), and the first day he owned it fenced it and put up no tresspassing signs (with one especially tall fence post right on the centerline of my runway) I checked on the guys reputation (***hole with too much money and time on his hands) and sold my property of 28 years and bought my current 40 acres, he was just a minor factor in my decision to move, but it worked out great, and I'm still friendly with the guy, now that he's 3 miles away!

Rick Papp
04-06-2010, 11:06 AM
Nathan,

Hard to kill a cow running through a fence. Sounds like a typical communication / aggraivation/ situiation. Maybe some other factors are involved. As previously mentioned, try to use an olive leaf before an attorney, FAA, or shotgun. Since he is in Kentucky, is this guy a Hatfield and your pop-in-law a McCoy? :bad-words: :bad-words: :bad-words: :bad-words: :9mm :9mm :9mm :9mm :9mm :9mm :2gunfire: :2gunfire: :2gunfire: :2gunfire: :2gunfire: :bang :bang :bang :bang Rick

cubdriver2
04-06-2010, 11:30 AM
Rick, check your PM

Glenn

willyb
04-06-2010, 11:35 AM
As Skywagon mentioned at Marlboro we have very tall trees at the approach end of 32.Those are a result of a dispute between the original airport owner and a neighbor.I was told by the current owner that he has recently received permission to take them down.
He thinks if he does then folks who are not capable of getting in will be enticed to try.


Bill

don d
04-06-2010, 12:06 PM
My experience with cows is that I believe you could run them through a razor wire fence and they wouldn't bleed a drop....

Randy
04-06-2010, 12:13 PM
Hi;
Just going to concur with Dr.Rick and scubber...if cattle running through a barbed wire fence would kill them..the bovine mortality rate at my place would be pretty high sometimes....the fence crawler cattle never even seem to get a scratch..
In my ag flying days..even flying over cattle herds with a loud sprayplane didn't seem to faze most of them..with the exception being freshly weaned calves..very spooky after the 2nd day..and of course sheep herds..they are stupid all the time.
If the guy has dead cattle...its probably dogs chasing them, bad/too much feed, or "lead" poisioning(sicko vandals)..it happens.
If he really thought the plane did it...he'd probably have his atty on the job.

Nathan K. Hammond
04-06-2010, 12:32 PM
Here's the 'shade tree.'

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/nato2120/IMG_0082.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/nato2120/IMG_0081.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/nato2120/IMG_0080.jpg

At least he put some caution flags at the top. :roll:
Double gate is the end of the runway.

nkh

Mauleguy
04-06-2010, 12:46 PM
It does not look like it will stop anyone flying a cub type airplane from landing or taking off. This guy is not happy about the flying so it is probably just the beginning of a battle.

Greg

SteveE
04-06-2010, 01:20 PM
Looks like a Charlie Brown Christmans tree....... :lol: Doubt seriously it will live,,, but he might repace it with a telephone pole....

Stupid! A bird couldn't even nest in that thing....

OLDCROWE
04-06-2010, 01:39 PM
I BELIEVE that if the strip is listed in the FAA database, the FAA MAY get involved if approaches/departure paths are blocked.

I'd give AOPA a call, and ask their Airports experts the question. I'm betting they'll have some good answers.

MTVNOPE, unfortunately not at FAA fight unless there is a height restriction easement or federal funds have been used on the facility... Been there fought that fight lost, bought an easement (for the City, my client) tore down the obstruction...

Interestingly, though there is legislation presently pending here in Oklahoma (sponsored by the OAA) to prevent this. It comes as a result of some apartments being built in the same kind of deal at the approach end of one of the oldest operating private airports in Oklahoma (now shut down) which was one of our favorite grass-strip eateries and was the lunch stop for last years OK-18 poker run.

StewartB
04-06-2010, 01:40 PM
A stock shed would have been more effective for shade. But this isn't about shade. If it was important to me to maintain the approach? I'd lawyer up. Your neighbor is trying to inflict control over what you do with your property.

I have an old saying for situations like this. "I didn't invent the game of f**k f**k, but I sure know how to play."

SB

OLDCROWE
04-06-2010, 01:53 PM
seems like there ought to be a trade that could be worked out say hay for chainsaw party

behindpropellers
04-06-2010, 02:01 PM
Sounds like it is time to close the airstrip for a year a and start a hog farm.

yeti
04-06-2010, 02:25 PM
This guy has just lost his mind. I talked to him the night after the cows alledgedly went crazy and somehow managed to die from running through three strands of barb wire. Seemed perfectly content with us using the runway only asked that we call him before use so that he could move cows to front field away from strip...Agreed. next day he calls again and said he thought cows needed some shade and put a tree up with his backhoe. I will not be bested by a 70 yr old senial hobby farmer! If a woman can sue Mcdonalds for hot coffee surely I can think of a way to financially disable this terd for impeding what goes on at my farm.

OLDCROWE
04-06-2010, 02:43 PM
If he's downwind we could send you some good old Oklahoma Johnsongrass seed!

shouldhunt
04-06-2010, 03:40 PM
I think i would schedule a couple of fly-ins, and that little tree should not be an issue, maybe even entertainment and practice. Be good for turns around a point before everylanding.

Terry

okmike
04-06-2010, 03:47 PM
OLDCROW
I met with the airport/marina/restaurant manager of 79F yesterday. He said they did not have a avagition or clear zone easement on the joining property so there was nothing they could do to stop the neighbor from building the 2 story apartment complex off the end of their runway. As you may know the airport property changed hands; and the new owner could have left the airport open, however he plans on developing the property in the near future and did not plan to keep the airport so he closed it. He said they could have displaced the threshold and continued to use it and come in right over the apartments, however the new owner didnít want any liability from the airport as it didn't fit into his development plans.

This year we will go to South Grand Lake Regional (3O9) for lunch during the OK18 Poker Run, they just built a new marina with a really nice floating restaurant with a big deck right on the water.

OLDCROWE
04-06-2010, 03:56 PM
OLDCROW
I met with the airport/marina/restaurant manager of 79F yesterday. He said they did not have a avagition or clear zone easement on the joining property so there was nothing they could do to stop the neighbor from building the 2 story apartment complex off the end of their runway. As you may know the airport property changed hands; and the new owner could have left the airport open, however he plans on developing the property in the near future and did not plan to keep the airport so he closed it. He said they could have displaced the threshold and continued to use it and come in right over the apartments, however the new owner didnít want any liability from the airport as it didn't fit into his development plans.

This year we will go to South Grand Lake Regional (3O9) for lunch during the OK18 Poker Run, they just built a new marina with a really nice floating restaurant with a big deck right on the water.

Hey Mike, shush will ya. My letter to the OAA about those apartments adverse impact to the airport followed by the owner's closure (I didn't tie the two together) is part of the backup for the pending legislation...

Clay Hammond
04-06-2010, 03:59 PM
Couple wraps of det-cord would take care of that lickety split.

behindpropellers
04-06-2010, 04:01 PM
Here's the 'shade tree.'

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/nato2120/IMG_0082.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/nato2120/IMG_0081.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/nato2120/IMG_0080.jpg

At least he put some caution flags at the top. :roll:
Double gate is the end of the runway.

nkh

Nate-

You should figure out how to attach a windsock up high on that thing!

Tim

yeti
04-06-2010, 04:12 PM
maybe we should do a fly-in for those brave enough. His soul purpose is to deter or suspend traffic on the strip. The best way to defeat that is increase the traffic. Going to be hard getting the 172 back in there though

Clay Hammond
04-06-2010, 04:15 PM
Seriously,

A J-3/Supercub/Champ/Scout could come right down over the top of that in a slip and still make it into your strip just fine Yeti.

Do you remember the little grass strip Nate and I cut and used next to Rwy19 out at the airport back in the day? It backed up against the airport fence, road on the other side, and then that hill right smack dab in the middle of the approach. Same scenario, about 600-700 feet long, and it was a down hill slope.

Ron B.
04-06-2010, 04:15 PM
If I were the old farmer I would be #####ing in my pants. If someone were to hit this intentional obstical and get seriously hurt would he not be liable. It's very obivious why it's put there. Now if he were to put up a highrise, he could say he had a reason for doing so other than to harm someone.
Ron

yeti
04-06-2010, 04:21 PM
getting in for those planes is not a problem at all with that uphill grade. dad didn't roll a wheel on the 172 until he got past the deer stand last week and still had to give it gas to get around the turn. Getting out may be a little trickier but I may cut a few more trees that are "in" the fence row to make it easier.

SteveE
04-06-2010, 05:43 PM
Yeti,,,

They make some stuff called "spike".... round pellets around tree...

Didnt hear it from me...

pzinck
04-06-2010, 06:13 PM
:(

yeti
04-06-2010, 06:14 PM
don't have to kill the tree it's nothing more than a pole any way. he didn't even push dirt around it to try and make it live, just pushed the root ball over in the hole. Just saw him out on the farm and he turned around and ran the other way. I guess now he'll get a restraining order because I was too close to the fence.

crazyivan
04-06-2010, 07:16 PM
...or just line up on final with a 15 degree dogleg and straighten it out in the flare. We do it all the time (actually about 30 deg) at the local field to avoid the 60' pine 50 feet from the threshold.

Regardless, there was no reason why your neighbor couldn't give you the courtesy of a face to face and find a mutual solution. At least he didn't threaten to sue.

Clay Hammond
04-06-2010, 07:29 PM
Orbithead!

Snert
04-06-2010, 07:47 PM
Find out who insures the property.
Write them a letter, with the photos stating what the insured has done. Let the insurance company and agent know that you know about the obstacle and have contacted everybody you know who used the runway and informed them but, your runway is registered with the FAA and often people you don't know, just land there. The actions of the insured may be leaving the insurance company extremely liable. The insurance company will take care of the tree.

Snert
04-06-2010, 07:49 PM
Yeti,
You let Nate marry your daughter? You must not have heard the stories.

Roger Peterson
04-06-2010, 08:20 PM
I think I would take down the double gates and put up a pretty little picket fence. If you could find a wrecked plane to put in your field some night, just past the tree and then pull his tree over and say it hit it.

yeti
04-06-2010, 08:27 PM
got some buddies in the air gaurd told them it was available for touch n go blackhawk landings. My other passion is target shooting, instead of going to the range now I have a 900' straightaway. wonder what scares cows more? airplanes, or the barrel of an AR-15 warming up?

Snert
04-06-2010, 08:32 PM
Nobody tell the people of New Holstein that we are talking trash about cows.

cubdriver2
04-06-2010, 09:11 PM
Nobody tell the people of New Holstein that we are talking trash about cows.


LMAO

Glenn

Nathan K. Hammond
04-06-2010, 10:27 PM
Talked with FISDO and they seemed interested; wanted pictures, etc... of the tree. They see it as a hazard in the case of an emergency landing. Also talked with the Kentucky department of Aviation, but that wasn't as promising; same with AOPA. They both suggested the owners work it out amongst each other.

For the time being; plan is to let things cool off a bit. Father in-law called and talked with the neighbor and that didn't go very well. Sounds like the neighbor, an elderly man, is starting to suffer from dimentia.

It's a fun strip; rolling hill, perfect for a cub; marginal for his C172 unless conditions are optimum. With the obstacle in place, it shuts down the strip for my father in-law. He a decent pilot, but this might be a little beyond his comfort level. If anyone feels like buzzing by and seeing it first hand; 8KY3 (http://skyvector.com/?ll=37.6612125910989,-84.99305870637599&chart=21&zoom=4)

Snert; thats not a bad idea, but finding his insurance carrier and agent might be kinda tough.

Thanks everyone.

nkh

aktango58
04-06-2010, 11:11 PM
Move the gate 50' to one side, take the tree out of the approach :lol:

Patrol Guy
04-15-2010, 03:24 PM
I was going to say "Tordon", but that is a dead tree that hasn't fallen over yet.

How's the fence? His cattle could get out a rome the neighbor hood every once in a while?