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NunavutPA-12
03-20-2010, 02:55 PM
Has anyone retro-fitted the leading edge slat kit (Backcountry) to a stock PA-18 wing? Looks interesting, but I haven't seen much discussion on the subject.

For safety and slow-speed handling is this a worthwhile mod? Ease of installation? Real-life pilot reports? Pros and cons?

Steve Pierce
03-20-2010, 10:42 PM
I put them on an experimental Smith Cub. Made a helluva difference. Did a lot of testing before doing the thrustline mod and the slats. Easy installation and amazing what they did to the feel and flight characteristics of a 1300 lb. plus Super Cub.

NunavutPA-12
03-21-2010, 07:01 PM
Thanks for that, Steve.

I'm a little surprised that there seems to be so little interest in this mod.

Larry

dakotacoyote
03-21-2010, 10:33 PM
Larry

I have a set installed on my experimental cub - empty weight 1050 with a highly modified 0-320 A2B pushing about 190 horses.
Also have drooping ailerons tied into the flap handle and larger tail feathers.
Flys like its on a rail in the steep turns. In and out of places you only dream about in a stock cub. Stalls at 17 mph will all mods deployed.

Lloyd

NunavutPA-12
03-22-2010, 08:16 AM
Thanks Lloyd.

Right now I'm only on straight floats, but if I ever get bush-wheels or skis I guess this might be something to think about.

My 'plane is Amateur-Built (Experimental) with the standard Cub airfoil.

Larry

JayH
04-25-2010, 08:04 PM
Old thread I'd like to bump a little:

Dakotacoyote,

Is your wing an extended, square tip or standard length with a bow tip? I have been looking for a pirep on the slats on a standard length wing with the classic bow tip.

Thanks,
J

dakotacoyote
04-25-2010, 10:02 PM
J
My wing is a Daktoa Cub wing squared. I also have a stall fence on the last rib.

Lloyd

dakotacoyote
04-25-2010, 10:02 PM
J
My wing is a Daktoa Cub wing squared. I also have a stall fence on the last rib.

Lloyd

JayH
04-25-2010, 10:19 PM
Thanks Lloyd, appreciate the info.

Jay

driveacub
05-02-2010, 11:21 PM
J
My wing is a Daktoa Cub wing squared. I also have a stall fence on the last rib.

Lloyd

I have a 12 with extended squared tips and the day and night flap/aileron conversion (100 inch flaps with the ailerons moved out). Did you happen to fly yours with the current wing before adding the Stall fence? If so what did you notice for difference? Thanks.

dakotacoyote
07-11-2010, 10:05 PM
It did make a difference with aileron control in the slow configuration. That is speeds below 30 mph. I have 92" flaps @ 102" ailerons.

tempdoug
07-11-2010, 10:42 PM
Lloyd, could you post a picture of your airplane. Im thinking ive seen a picture of it and it would sure intrigue a lot of people here. Theres actually one more like yours, isnt there. If i remember right one was red, and i cant remember the other one. But im thinking there is another like yours, right? Doug north dakota

coyotegetter
07-12-2010, 08:25 AM
I flew one of the cubs that backcountry has as a demo plane and was amazed. I put a set of slats on my plane and just love it! There is no power off stall at all. It will get a negative pitch and then the nose comes back up and it just falls flat with the stick all the way back in your lap at about 750 feet per minute. If you watch Wayne Mackey fly his plane on you tube you get a good idea of what they will do.

dakotacoyote
07-12-2010, 05:49 PM
Doug
You are correct on the number (2) Mine is the red/white with moving leading edge slats.
Wayne Mackey helped me build it so it was done right. When I get it back from the ranch I will take a couple of pic's. I now have 31" tires instead of the original 26" which really makes a difference.
Its not the fastest cub but did not build it for speed. When I slow her up everyone still flys past me.
If you get down this way give me a call. I took it out to Missouri Breaks this year and had a great time.
Lloyd

dakotacoyote
07-12-2010, 05:49 PM
Doug
You are correct on the number (2) Mine is the red/white with moving leading edge slats.
Wayne Mackey helped me build it so it was done right. When I get it back from the ranch I will take a couple of pic's. I now have 31" tires instead of the original 26" which really makes a difference.
Its not the fastest cub but did not build it for speed. When I slow her up everyone still flys past me.
If you get down this way give me a call. I took it out to Missouri Breaks this year and had a great time.
Lloyd

Bobby Breeden
02-02-2011, 08:46 AM
Did you ever get around to taking pics of your cub dakotacoyote? They would be helpful to look at. The wings in particular. Thanks, Bobby

Skycop
02-02-2011, 08:45 PM
Anyone ever put one on a Cessna wing?

Ruffair
02-02-2011, 09:17 PM
Anyone ever put one on a Cessna wing?

....only in my mind......

Would look good on a 180 huh.....

Skycop
02-02-2011, 09:34 PM
Or on a 1959 EXP 175 taildragger with a 200+ O-360 and Robertson STOL :)

C-FIJK
02-02-2011, 10:03 PM
My thought exactly i have a brand new Super Cyclone c-185 300 hp , but looking at the wing leading edge it is not straight meaning the cessna wing tapers back towards the tip ( correct me if i am wrong) If TCOW wants a plane to try them on I am game for it
My wings are one foot longer at the root with one foot longer flaps I think the slats would be a excellent addition ! My flaps are also one foot larger

How would the hangers have to be built or would the slat have to taper back like the wing

Looking for advice My plane is Brand new never flown

Gerry

palhal
02-03-2011, 10:36 AM
I have slats on my SQ-2. It won't drop a wing on you in very slow flight.

Its nice to have the slats when making a 180 turn in a deep narrow canyon.

I will always have slats on any new SC that I might own. If you have small tires and land at airports only, I wouldn't bother with them.

CptKelly
02-04-2011, 02:58 PM
I am wondering how much modification does it take to a pair of stock Smith Kit wings in order to install the LE Slats? Wy wings are the longer, square tip versions.
How much do the slats reduce your cruise speed, and about what would you expect your new stall speed to be?


Mike Kelly- South Carolina

rotto789
02-04-2011, 03:51 PM
I have the stock exteded square Smith wings and the leading edge slat mounts screw right to the rib and leading edge skin, very simple, they are designed for the piper airfoil and rib spacing, very easy instalation. I don't know the answer to the Stall and cruise speeds, but they claim around 20 mph air speed I assume hanging it on the prop, my super cub is not yet flying hopefully in about a year.
cheers,
Rick

Steve Pierce
02-04-2011, 10:57 PM
I put them on an extended wing Smith Cub. Easy, screw them on. Slowed the airplane down in cruise according to the owner. She didn't notice any increase in stall speed because she was flying the airplane like she did before the slats. I noticed a big difference at high angles of attack. The biggest thing I noticed is the responsiveness when slow and heavy. the airplane didn't feelheavy and flew very stable in tight slow turns. Sounds like what Palhal noticed. Back Country Cubs sells the kit.

https://picasaweb.google.com/Pierceaero/LuisaSSmithCubFromMexico#

palhal
02-04-2011, 11:56 PM
My slat mounts bolt to the front spar and come thru the leading edge with a couple of bent angles pop rivited to the inside of the leading edge. My slats were then made to accept my main mounts.

I can hold altitude at 26 MPH. (empty Wt. 1075 lbs). Never took the slats off to see what cruise speed would be.

I also have 8' ailerons & flaps with 4 1/2" longer cord with sq. wing tips.

The complete slat kit weighs just under 20 lbs.

CptKelly
02-05-2011, 06:04 PM
How much is involved in installing Leading Edge Slats? Can you do it with the wing currently covered? Where do you buy a "Kit", and about what do they cost? How much of a reduction in cruise speed are you guys seeing?

Mike

C-FIJK
02-05-2011, 07:00 PM
http://supercub.com/aircraft-catalog-aircraft-a-accessories/supercuborderforms/slatkitinfo.html


http://supercub.com/aircraft-catalog-aircraft-a-accessories/supercuborderforms/mackeysq2info.html


all info is right here

gerry

Steve Pierce
02-06-2011, 09:20 AM
I couldn't find the current pricing. They were about $5k a few years ago when I installed them. They just screwed down to the ribs with PK screws. Easy installation.

Crash
02-07-2011, 10:34 AM
I'll be impressed with slats when they can beat a stock Cubcrafters Sport Cub (Valdez), or even a stock Cub wing. Until then.... the looks, extra weight, and nose "pointed at the moon" to make them work, do nothing for me.

Crash

Gunny
02-07-2011, 09:47 PM
Crash - how about a slow speed (like real slow), tight turn, little bit cross controlled, in a wind competition? At altitude so the loser gets to live. Slots/slats vs. stock wing or stock wing with vgs.

Sure, all the good pilots don't get cross controlled, not even a little bit, especially when they are slow and maneuvering, that is except for all of the good pilots that got killed when they were slow and maneuvering, close to the ground, with a little wind, and maybe just maybe a little cross controlled (nah, they couldn't have been crossed, they were good pilots).

Sure, sure, training wheels....and by way of comparison, back in the day cars didn't have seat belts. Now they do because we found out that you might survive better in a crash with one - but good drivers don't need seat belts because they never crash, well hardly ever, I mean almost never.....;-)

PS: If this post seems a little cryptic or disjointed its because Crash and I go back on this subject so bear with us. Crash, I think I see some German artillery on that hill over there.....:lol:

Crash
02-07-2011, 10:34 PM
Gunny

The slats / slots discussion remind me of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug75diEyiA0

A Super Cub's most redeeming value is STOL. If it doesn't get you off the ground quicker, or land slower / shorter, it's just extra weight!

Crash

palhal
02-07-2011, 10:43 PM
I cross control my SQ-2 all the time to see something under my nose quickly. It will not drop a wing.

In the German flight manual for the Fieseler Storch (with slats) It says when flying close to the ground to use rudder only for manuvering so you will keep the wings level for max lift.

I did airshows with my Storch at 800 ft doing 360 degree square corner left turns which was full left rudder and full right aileron and my SQ-2 will do the same.

Slats may be one of the most expensive mods for the experimental which leaves alot of owners out of the picture.

Steve Pierce
02-08-2011, 03:20 PM
$3K for this set with about 10 hours on them. PM me for the owners contact info.
1194

5 Rivers
02-08-2011, 06:54 PM
I'll be impressed with slats when they can beat a stock Cubcrafters Sport Cub (Valdez), or even a stock Cub wing. Until then.... the looks, extra weight, and nose "pointed at the moon" to make them work, do nothing for me.

Crash


Crash, you put a whole moose in a CC Sport Cub and come follow me around in a SQ2, if you can!

dakotacoyote
02-08-2011, 07:10 PM
Until you have flown with a set of slats you do not know what you are talking about.

Safer than a stock wing any day.

L

Skycop
02-08-2011, 07:30 PM
It's amazing how the banter wavers away from the original posted question...

aktango58
02-08-2011, 09:52 PM
Steve,

I did not realize that 94CC was exp.!

(haha)

Bobby Breeden
02-09-2011, 11:30 AM
regardless of whether people think this is a worthwhile mod or not, lets go back to the original question. is it possible to fit a slat on stock cub wing with round wing tips? and for those of you with drooping ailerons, are they recommend and are they effective without slats? i know it would make a lot of lift in the back of the wing and probably tip the nose down so you could see as well as go slow.

Dave Calkins
02-09-2011, 01:38 PM
Slats are a hoot to fly! They are not the all-time answer to every mission, and I doubt a Cessna would be a meaningful use for them, but anyone who has really wrung-out a slatted Cub would never tell you they aren't cool, or fun, or worth having!!!! Never! Ever! Never, ever, ever, ever, ever!

Slats would still work excellent on a round-tip wing, in my opinion.

Droop Ailerons. Droops work great to give better slow-flight performance on an unslatted wing, but again, are not the answer to every mission. The only kind to have on a Cub are selectable for zero droop versus flap if that's what the pilot wants.

My personal experience using Wayne Mackey's slat kit with drooped ailerons (20 degrees) is that when the droops are selected at Minimum Controlable Airspeed, the nose drops 10 degrees with zero other changes.......i.e. Bobby is right, the change in lift-center-of-pressure drops the nose and you can see over the nose better.

The droops come at a price, adverse yaw with aileron commands, but roll spoilers work very well to give roll authority ALL back.

DAVE

Crash
02-09-2011, 10:25 PM
$3K for this set with about 10 hours on them. PM me for the owners contact info.
1194


Why is he taking them off after only 10 hours of flight time?

And yes, I have flown a slotted winged Cub. Fun to screw around in, but it didn't get off the ground any better or land any shorter then my stock wing. My point is, why spend the money or add the extra weight? Not really seeing them "spank" everything in organized competition either.

Safer, I've never felt un-safe doing steep turns in my Cub. But to each his own. If you feel you need them, go for it. Just some friendly banter here.

Take care,

Crash

Steve Pierce
02-09-2011, 10:33 PM
Why is he taking them off after only 10 hours of flight time?

And yes, I have flown a slotted winged Cub. Fun to screw around in, but it didn't get off the ground any better or land any shorter then my stock wing. My point is, why spend the money or add the extra weight? Not really seeing them "spank" everything in organized competition either.

Safer, I've never felt un-safe doing steep turns in my Cub. But to each his own. If you feel you need them, go for it. Just some friendly banter here.

Take care,

Crash

Low time Cub pilot and feels they are beyond his capability.

palhal
02-09-2011, 10:59 PM
I think Mike Olsons "CAZOOM" has round wing tips with slats that are screwed on.

Very highly competitive at Valdez also.

Dave Calkins
02-09-2011, 11:41 PM
I think Mike Olsons "CAZOOM" has round wing tips with slats that are screwed on.

Very highly competitive at Valdez also.

no. Squared off extended wings with long flaps that have much extended chord and deploy to nearly 80 degrees. No droop ailerons. A real going machine!!!

Crash
02-10-2011, 12:56 AM
Looking at last years Valdez results...

Stock CC Sport Cub (right off the assembly line) 1st place 133' combined take off and landing distance

Mackey SQ2 4th place 172' combined take off and landing distance.

Cazoom (highly modified "one off" with nitros, O-375, slats, extended this, extended that...) 5th place 174' combined take off and landing distance.

Sorry, still not seeing the point.:smile:

P.S. 2nd place was a PA-22 producer (167') and third was a PA-18 (170')

Crash

gpepperd
02-10-2011, 12:42 PM
The 2nd place Producer had slats, FYI.

fabricfan
02-10-2011, 01:00 PM
Stock CC Sport Cub (right off the assembly line) 1st place 133' combined take off and landing distance



Isn't a Sport Cub an 800 lb plane?

Crash
02-10-2011, 07:10 PM
Isn't a Sport Cub an 800 lb plane?

I checked it out at Geo Cache and was told it had an empty weight of 970 lbs.

As a side note.... Paul's Piper PA-18-160 with stock wings, competing in the CERTIFIED Bush category, beat all the experimentals including the CC Carbon Cub (131' vs 133').


Crash

StewartB
02-10-2011, 08:07 PM
I beg to differ. PAUL won the contest. He'd win it in a variety of airplanes. The pilot is still the most important piece of equipment in the plane.

Stewart, a confessed mediocre Cub pilot, and the plane has nothng to do with that. ;-)

Crash
02-10-2011, 10:42 PM
I beg to differ. PAUL won the contest. He'd win it in a variety of airplanes. The pilot is still the most important piece of equipment in the plane.

Stewart, a confessed mediocre Cub pilot, and the plane has nothng to do with that. ;-)

Bear Bryant "He can beat your's with his, then take yours and beat his" Agreed.

As an additional note, Leif Walters also turned in better results (158') then the SQ2 and Cazoom in a 1200+ lb, stock PA-18 in the certified Bush class.

By the way... Wayne Mackey (SQ2) and Ed Doyle (Cazoom) are no slouches either when it comes to flying Cubs.



Crash

Dave Calkins
02-11-2011, 12:20 PM
Neither Wayne nor Ed is a professional bush pilot.

Both Paul and Leif are.

Both Wayne and Ed are larger, heavier men than either Paul or Leif.

All of 4 of those guys are cool cookies and great guys!

I don't recall the CC that won "experimental" last spring was stock off the assembly line. I've heard it has a special engine that was installed only for the competition, not for ferrying or normal flying. I'm sure it was a great a/c. Paul didn't have the keys for it until the morning of the comp. He woke me up that morning!!!!!

800 pounds? 970?

I wonder what Mike Olsen will come up with this year?? Slats on an 800 pound airplane with 36" extended gear and 280 HP?????????

Often the wind will change, comp. class to comp. class, or even heat to heat. Last year Leif got screwed by the wind conditions, as I recall.

Valdez is a fun time, even if you have other cool places to be.

DAVE

ndill
02-11-2011, 01:22 PM
This thread is creating crazy Ideas in my head. I wondered if you could build a set
of slats in carbonfiber and put them on a carboncub, or any cub for that matter. Seems
like it would keep the weight down.:crazyeyes::nutz::cool:

Crash
02-11-2011, 01:27 PM
Neither Wayne nor Ed is a professional bush pilot.

Both Paul and Leif are.

Both Wayne and Ed are larger, heavier men than either Paul or Leif.

All of 4 of those guys are cool cookies and great guys!

I don't recall the CC that won "experimental" last spring was stock off the assembly line. I've heard it has a special engine that was installed only for the competition, not for ferrying or normal flying. I'm sure it was a great a/c. Paul didn't have the keys for it until the morning of the comp. He woke me up that morning!!!!!

800 pounds? 970?

I wonder what Mike Olsen will come up with this year?? Slats on an 800 pound airplane with 36" extended gear and 280 HP?????????

Often the wind will change, comp. class to comp. class, or even heat to heat. Last year Leif got screwed by the wind conditions, as I recall.

Valdez is a fun time, even if you have other cool places to be.

DAVE

Dave

What about two years ago when Matt Piatt jumped in Jim Richmond's 100 hp Sport Cub and handed all of them their hats including Jerry Burr with a 69' take off and 69' landing?

There is a 26% difference between last years first place Sport Cub / PA-18 score, and the slat equipped planes. Still not seeing where slats / slots have any "great" positive effect on landing or take off distances. You'd think at some point all these wing mods would at least get them closer (to stock performance :-). I'd feel real bad showing up with a super modified, hot rod plane, only to get beat by a kid in a 100 hp Sport Cub swinging a cruise prop.

Also confused why Steve's customer, a low time pilot, would have his slats removed if they're supposed to make the airplane more safe. If anyone needs them it would be him.

Not dissing the hard work these guys put into building up these "one off" experimentals. Just questioning why were not seeing better performance results.

Crash

P.S. I think you're all wet on your Sport Cub comment (Paul not having the keys until the event) last year. I arrived at Ultima Thule on Wednesday after the Airmans show on Sunday. It (CC Sport Cub) was sitting on the ramp when I got there and still was when I left on Friday. Paul took it out and did a handful of landing and take offs to get ready for the Valdez event. It was my impression that Paul had flown it directly from the Airmans show and kept it up to the Valdez event.

Dave Calkins
02-11-2011, 11:05 PM
Greg, maybe Paul will comment. I recall that the keys were in someones' pocket and unavailable to Paul until Sat. morning. I don't know about the days leading up to that morning.

There is no arguing with Paul's performance in that airplane, though.

It'd be cool to watch at Valdez how a slatted hotrod like Kazoom/Redneck could spank a stock PA-18 hauling a gross-load and also landing that load! (stir, stir, stir:bang )

aktango58
02-12-2011, 12:03 AM
It is one thing to get the wheels off quick, but don's some of these mods, like slats, really come into their own at a high angle of attack, like on climb out and descent?

So if one plane can break ground at 70 feet, but takes another 1,000 feet to clear the obstacle, and another takes 100 feet but climbs over the obstacle in 700', what would that mean to a guy flying his plane in the brush?

Just asking.

Dave Calkins
02-12-2011, 12:23 AM
George, hard to explain if you've not driven one of these bad boys. But I've seen far less than 70 foot takeoffs while practicing, and far, far less than any landing at Valdez, while practicing, in about 12 MPH wind.

They are amazing with a load.....it's like the load is not there.....the will wing hang on at crazy angles and speeds......and a guy could corkscrew up in a 150-foot diameter column......to the moon...........at 2400 poounds gross!

A great light Cub is awesome, that's why Crash has no use for any mods! But slats are cool too.

I wonder about an 800 pound Cub with slats, over 200HP, and gear that would have the thing 3-pointed with the wing AOA at, say, 40degrees.

No one knows, but I can guess! D

ndill
02-12-2011, 11:54 AM
Has anyone out there flown both the dakota cub slotted wing and the slatted wing, what are the differences in AOA required for slow flight.

rotto789
02-12-2011, 12:24 PM
:pop: The Great Debate: to slat or not to slat that is the question?..............8)

Widebody
02-12-2011, 12:43 PM
I've flown the slotted wing on a Cub and a 12. Flew with Wayne in his SQ2 with slatts.
All 3 will perform in slow flight better than a VG equipped Cub. A stock Cub will fall out of the sky if trying to hang with any of these 3. Riding with Wayne was a blast as he gave me a hell of a demonstration, if I didn't know and trust him, I might have been a little weak in the knees upon landing. Which performs better, I really don't know. If I were picking between the two, I'd pick Waynes Slatts. First and foremost they're both a slow flight safety feature, the rest is a cool bonus.

Brad

Crash
02-12-2011, 02:42 PM
When I flew the Dakota slotted wing Cub I was also very impressed. I was seeing 22 mph stalls on the ASI even at low power and wing angles. I though "WOW these slots REALLY do work, this is almost TOO good to be true". After a few minutes I pushed the excitement aside and though "wait a minute, this IS too good to be true"!

I then turned the GPS on and aligned the plane directly up wind and did a number of stalls at different power setting and wing angles. Then I turned directly down wind and did the exact same power settings and wing angles. Averaging both sets of stall numbers, the VERY best I could get it down to according to the GPS was 38 mph with lots of power and a very steep wing angle.

My theory..... the slot, when "open" (steep wing angle), diverts a lot of the normal under wing air pressure, up through the slot and away from the pitot tube. This gives you a 30% incorrect ASI reading and makes you think you're really stalling at 22 MPH.

Fact: a set of Dakota slotted wings weighs 58 lbs more then a set of stock Piper wings. In order for them to be of ANY benefit, they have to produce an additional 58 lbs of lift to offset "themselves". I'd guess they would also have to produce that (58 lbs), plus another 150 lbs of lift before you'd notice any REAL difference in your airplane's performance. And this "additional" lift is subject to the slot being open (steep wing angle) and producing, a varying proposition at best.

When in the take off phase they're not really "open" until you rotate and at that point you're already ready to fly anyway. On landing you're slowing down so much that there is less "high speed air" flowing through the slot and when you flatten the plane out to land so you don't hit tail first, there is little to no additional lift being produced because they're effectively closed. You now just have the additional 58 lbs, mounted WAY up high that you're trying to slow down and not nose over, and it ain't helping matters. At some point you have to get your and the plane's weight moving forward STOPPED.

On floats I think they're a different story. Climbing on step they're "open" and producing.

This is just my un-educated opinion and personal observations and again no slam on the manufacturers of these products.

When I bought my Dakota wings I could have purchased a set of Dakota slot wings, no problem. The Alaska Dakota rep at the time basically said "for wheel / ski work, forget it, for floats they're the ticket for getting off the water short".

Take care,

Crash

Steve Pierce
02-13-2011, 01:43 AM
58 lbs. seems like a lot. How much does a stock wing weigh and how much does a standard Dakota Cub wing weigh?

mongo
02-13-2011, 09:56 AM
58 lbs. seems like a lot. How much does a stock wing weigh and how much does a standard Dakota Cub wing weigh?

My D&E 63" Riblett wings weigh around 30 lbs more than a stock cub wing but they also have 22 gallon tanks. They stall at 25mph indicated at 1500 rpm and 1700lbs. At 1700-1800rpm I can maintain altitude at 28mph. This is without VGs which I hope to fit today and retest. I will also use my gps to see if like Crash the ASI is accurate at the high angle of attack.
I do think deploying the flaps does affect the ASI becuase every notch I add seems to instantly slow the air speed down, faster than the plane could possibly deccelerate, but I guess I will find out.





Sent from my HTC Evo using Tapatalk

dakotacoyote
02-13-2011, 07:06 PM
Back to the original question -
For safety and air speed I would recommend the slats - if you flying is mostly cross country using conventional air strips, probably not worth spending the money
But if you do alot of off field landings/takeoffs it is worth the expense.

Just my thoughts

L

Crash
02-13-2011, 08:43 PM
58 lbs. seems like a lot. How much does a stock wing weigh and how much does a standard Dakota Cub wing weigh?

I've got a stock wing (original piper ribs) with tank, tank cover, aileron and flap in the hanger that I will weigh, if Amy will do the same with a slotted wing with tip etc.

Crash

pak
02-13-2011, 09:48 PM
Hey Crash, are you getting ready to haul dog food for the race?

Steve Pierce
02-13-2011, 09:53 PM
I found my notes that the slots are 8 lbs. heavier than the same extended wing without slots. I have a set of 1983 and 1971 stock wings I will weigh as well. I have weighed the ribs etc. and I know they vary from 6-8 ounces each more than stock. Should be interesting especially since I have been rat holing away stock ribs for years just to stay light on my own project.

Piper Butt Rib 9.7 oz.
1267

Univair Butt Rib 14.0 oz.
1268

Piper Tip Rib 5.5 oz.
1269

Dakota Cub Tip Rib 10.8 oz.
1270

J5Ron
02-14-2011, 11:55 AM
We weighed a buddy's PA 18 wing last winter after rebuild. Stewarts System. 86 or 88lbs if memory serves me right...no flaps or aileron attached. Empty weight was 1060 on tires when done.

As for the Slats...I want a set for my exp...and will get a set if money allows...Not always about the short TO and landings...rather the safety element afforded by such a mod.

Checked out Lloyds Dakota Coyote in SD, and one point he made stayed with me...he can't spin it...can't get it upside down...

Crash
02-14-2011, 12:21 PM
We weighed a buddy's PA 18 wing last winter after rebuild. Stewarts System. 86 or 88lbs if memory serves me right...no flaps or aileron attached. Empty weight was 1060 on tires when done.

As for the Slats...I want a set for my exp...and will get a set if money allows...Not always about the short TO and landings...rather the safety element afforded by such a mod.

Checked out Lloyds Dakota Coyote in SD, and one point he made stayed with me...he can't spin it...can't get it upside down...

If you want to do something "safe"....., work on the tail. It's killed WAY more pilots then the wings ever have.


Crash

SpainCub
02-14-2011, 12:33 PM
Checked out Lloyds Dakota Coyote in SD, and one point he made stayed with me...he can't spin it...can't get it upside down...

Hi, what's "SD" for us foreigners? :/

Cubus Maximus
02-14-2011, 12:55 PM
South Dakota = SD

StewartB
02-14-2011, 01:11 PM
If you want to do something "safe"....., work on the tail. It's killed WAY more pilots then the wings ever have.


Crash

What have you done to improve the tail? Other than Charly's tail reinforcement mod what mainstream mods are available to "improve" the tail. Not trying to pick an argument, just interested in what you meant.

SB

spinner2
02-14-2011, 01:16 PM
I moved my finished Carbon Cub wing from the home shop to the hangar to make way for spraying on the left wing. While we were positioning it in the hangar I decided to weigh it since I had a scale there and Rich and Jason to help me. Without the flap and aileron but all other parts included it weighed 66 pounds. This is with CC's 22 gallon tanks too and wingtip light in place. I don't know the weight on the control surfaces yet but will weigh them too. The covering system is Polyfiber with the white being Poly Tone and Aerothane for the trim colors.

1286

Crash
02-14-2011, 01:47 PM
What have you done to improve the tail? SB

Make turns with the ball centered.

The FAA had it right some years back when the banned the installation of tundra tires on Cubs. They understood that it was the tail stalling a split second before the upper wing stalled (lower now having all the lift and rolling up and over) that put you on your back in a "Moose Stall".

But in the end...they found out that it WASN'T "disturbed air" coming off of the big tires that caused the tail to stall. It was the big square fuselage sliding sideways through the air in an "un-coordinated" turn that caused it to stall.

Verdict: Operator ERROR. The wings and tires never were the problem.

If you make it "idiot proof", they'll just invent a better idiot.

Crash

StewartB
02-14-2011, 02:24 PM
If you make it "idiot proof", they'll just invent a better idiot.

Hard to dispute. When guys modify their planes and claim safety they're comparing the mod to stock using stock airspeed and techniques. If the mod expands the performance envelope the pilot will push things to the new limit. Bye bye safety margin. If the pilot doesn't push that limit he probably never needed the mod. There are lots of mods out there that don't appeal to me because I don't need them for what I do. I'm perfectly content with what I have. It doesn't bother me that other guys want slats/slots and some of those guys are really good at utilizing them. But at the same time the pilots I respect and admire most are all flying stock wings. Go figure.

Stewart

Widebody
02-14-2011, 05:25 PM
If you want to do something "safe"....., work on the tail. It's killed WAY more pilots then the wings ever have.


Crash

If working on the tail means flying coordinated, then ya that's pretty simple.
But explain why you can roll a stock cub on it's back everytime with ease. But when you add VG's, Slotts or Slatts it's virtually impossible. Only a question.

Here's a fact, this entire discussion hinges on ONE THING, you first, have to stall the airplane.
Nothing bad will happen until you STALL. Don't matter what equipment you have or how horse sh$$ a pilot you are, maintain your airspeed and you can fly around all day half cocked if you want.

Brad

SpainCub
02-14-2011, 05:43 PM
South Dakota = SD

Cool. I was looking for a virtual place ;) thanks... Any images of this bird on the net... SD is a litros from me :)

SpainCub
02-14-2011, 05:52 PM
Now, might be a little off track here, I owned a little Bingo ( like the CH 750 ) and I did try to fly it with out the slats, and I nearly killed myself on the darn thing. I could hang it on the air and nearly touch the tail with it on a slow approach with the slats, and never did get it to stall, until I took them off, and like I said, nearly killed myself. I am on the camp of slats, nice to have and do add a safety margin to a cub, but I can land my cub shorter than I can land a Ch 805 that I have flown... Do I need slats? Not for my flying, would I get slats, if the price was right and STC'd... Maybe.

dakotacoyote
02-15-2011, 02:24 PM
Regarding the tail - I also had Wayne deepen the tail feathers by 5" for more forward visibility in slow flight. Minimal weigh addition. Found out the square feathers did not do the same and original design.
Also the whole idea it to make the plane safer in the slow envelope - not make "idot pilots."

L

Bobby Breeden
02-15-2011, 03:06 PM
For the tail I highly suggest elevator gap seals. Even more so than extending the elevator. Cub crafters sells these or you can make the homebuilt versions with a strip of duct tape sealing the top of the gap between the tubes. They keep the clean air flowing over and under the tail which also makes the vg's more effective. During slow flight the gap seals allow you to get a much deeper angle of attack but they also help prevent a moose stall by keeping the tail flying. There is much more control with less stick pressure in slow flight.
I believe that these would be neccessary with slats because they give the tail more authority at the much higher angle of attack acheivable during slow flight.

Amy
02-15-2011, 03:49 PM
I've got a stock wing (original piper ribs) with tank, tank cover, aileron and flap in the hanger that I will weigh, if Amy will do the same with a slotted wing with tip etc.

Crash

I'm behind the curve a bit responding here (story of my life) but will find out for you. 8) Currently biding my time waiting for economics class to start, but I have my "what things weigh" cheat sheet at home. The weight will include the 24 gallon tanks.

Crash
02-15-2011, 06:31 PM
I'm behind the curve a bit responding here (story of my life) but will find out for you. 8) Currently biding my time waiting for economics class to start, but I have my "what things weigh" cheat sheet at home. The weight will include the 24 gallon tanks.

I'll include a stock tank and lid as well, also don't forget an aileron and flap. Time to get the real weight difference and settle the debate.

Take care,

Crash

spinner2
02-15-2011, 06:51 PM
I moved my finished Carbon Cub wing from the home shop to the hangar to make way for spraying on the left wing. While we were positioning it in the hangar I decided to weigh it since I had a scale there and Rich and Jason to help me. Without the flap and aileron but all other parts included it weighed 66 pounds. This is with CC's 22 gallon tanks too and wingtip light in place. I don't know the weight on the control surfaces yet but will weigh them too. The covering system is Polyfiber with the white being Poly Tone and Aerothane for the trim colors.

1286

I weighed my CC control surfaces today. Flap is 4.6 pounds, aileron is 6.2 - both are unpainted weights. Total is 76.8 and the tank cover is unpainted at this point so the final weight would be a little heavier due to the weights for bare aluminum parts.

A few years ago I weighed a stock Piper PA-18 wing after spraying and it came in at 99.5 pounds with the same parts included. The wing was done with Randolph and the flap and aileron with Polyfiber top coated with Poly Tone.

Crash
02-15-2011, 07:38 PM
I weighed my CC control surfaces today. Flap is 4.6 pounds, aileron is 6.2 - both are unpainted weights. Total is 76.8 and the tank cover is unpainted at this point so the final weight would be a little heavier due to the weights for bare aluminum parts.

A few years ago I weighed a stock Piper PA-18 wing after spraying and it came in at 99.5 pounds with the same parts included. The wing was done with Randolph and the flap and aileron with Polyfiber top coated with Poly Tone.

Trying to get un-covered weights. Covering systems will skew the weights depending on the covering system used. Do you still have an un-covered CC wing you could weigh? Would be interesting to see the difference between the Sport Cub wing and stock Piper.

Weighed a stock PA-18 flap (un-covered) yesterday, 3.6 lbs. One covered weighed 5.2 lbs (heavy / thick dope covering).

Crash

spinner2
02-16-2011, 09:53 AM
Trying to get un-covered weights. Covering systems will skew the weights depending on the covering system used. Do you still have an un-covered CC wing you could weigh? Would be interesting to see the difference between the Sport Cub wing and stock Piper.
Crash

No. The other wing is already covered now too. CC uses two different types of spars. The Sport Cub has spars with large discs cut out to reduce weight. The Carbon Cub and Carbon Cub kit have solid spars. There are a few other structural differences with the kit too - beefier. Also the factory built planes use light fabric and the kit comes with medium.

Amy
02-16-2011, 01:29 PM
Just need to find the wing tip weights . . . . haven't forgotten! 8)

PA-22/20-160
08-07-2011, 04:47 PM
Amy did you ever get the weight of the wing?

Clifford
03-30-2014, 03:13 PM
Sounds like a good plan, I built a exp supercub with Lyc 205 HP in it and have been looking for a set of drawings for some slats. I have been in contact with Wayne and am quite impressed with his slats but cannot at this time afford the $ 4 grand they cost.

SpainCub
03-30-2014, 04:05 PM
What would a set of plans for aerodynamically tested and optimised set of slats would go for? ;-) or should I say, willing to pay :wink:

Would people be interested in a retrofit or a wing rebuild? A wing rebuild, meaning you just add new ribs to your wings... considering optimal performance?


Steve, would you give us your PIREP on the before and after of putting in the Slats?