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More aviation rights taken away in Oregon

ksecub

Registered User
Portland, OR
Yesterday to took off from the grass at my home strip (Aurora State Airport) just like I have for the last 25 years. I was contacted by the Airport Manager, he claimed that I was in violation by using the grass, Aurora State airport is a paved non-towered strip a mile long surrounded by grass. Not only was I in violation for using the grass, but I can not use the intersections for take-off anymore. I have Bushwheels on my aircraft and now I need to taxi 1/2 mile on the black top everytime I want to take off.

I contacted the FAA and they don't care if I use the grass, but it appears that the no grass rule is an airport rule, that some how has been enacted. As a tax payer I feel that my rights have been taken from me and all the other local pilots that use the grass. My concern is this might set a presidence for all other state run airports in our great country.

If you have ever used or plan to use Aurora State Airport in the future or are concerned that this might happen to your local airport I would like to ask you to send John P. Wilson, Jr., the Oregon State Airport Operations Specialist an email stating that you do not agree with this new ruling. His email address is:

John.P.Wilson@state.or.us

I think we can get this rule reversed if enough people protest. Don't let this happen to your local airport!

Thank you very much,
Doug Keller
 
I would really consider calling AOPA if you are a member as they have the resources to fight this kind of thing. Someone from your state that you know is a member and should call them at least for advice on the best way to proceed. The best time to fight something like this is now at the beginning, not after it has been in effect for years!!!
Captain Ron
8)
 
I think it's absolutely ridiculous the rate at which we continue to lose our freedoms in this country. I thought it was a free country, and that would mean having choices. If Mr. John Wilson doesn't like landing in the grass he should use the runway! To mandate it that no one can land in the grass because he doesn't like to... that's Left thinking.

My e mail has been sent to Mr. John Wilson

Like my father said above, the AOPA is there to help. Call them!
too many people aren't willing to put up a fight and are too easily pushed over, we need to fight for our rights!
 
Richard Deblack said:
I think it's absolutely ridiculous the rate at which we continue to lose our freedoms in this country. I thought it was a free country, and that would mean having choices. If Mr. John Wilson doesn't like landing in the grass he should use the runway! To mandate it that no one can land in the grass because he doesn't like to... that's Left thinking.

Yup...

Equally alarming is the amount of people that will not fight for common freedoms.

I know I would much rather be productive than deal with these kind of issues.
 
Rediculous

I just fired off a few e-mails to a few different places, and I will follow up with hard copies through the mail. I used to not care enough about small freedoms dissapearing, but after this last year, that has changed.
 
I think the issue here is 'Can they discriminate against certain users at a public use facility that is paid for with public funds and aviation taxes that grass users pay as well as assfault users do'. I really think AOPA can give some guidance on this as they have experience and legal department for fighting all manner of aviation related mischief.
Captain Ron
8)
 
1. Ask the guy that called you for a copy of the rule and who created and authorized it.

2. Depending on what you recieve, attend the very next airport board meeting and every other meeting for awhile and politely inquire.

Have you called?

STATES AIRPORTS MGR
3040 25TH ST SE
SALEM, OR 97302-1125
Phone 503-378-4880
 
Doug,

I'll be happy to compose and send a letter. It may be helpful to understand the decision's basis so a response might address the issue, not just the decision. For instance, the airports maintain a surface for aircraft ops. There may be an assumption that deviating from that surface exposes them to risk. Perhaps the solution is as easy as the pilot declaring "operation at my own risk".

I support personal participation on government as opposed to sending AOPA $37 so I can sit on my rear. I'm not an Oregon resident but we're considering SW Oregon for a future residence. Thank you for posting the info.

Good luck with the fight.

Stewart
 
Grass

Hi Doug

I'm curious if the airport manager is not allowing at anytime of the year grass landings or just winter months starting in the fall. Snohomish airports and several others close there grass strips because of wet soft grass and planes making deep tracks in it. The bushwheels would not hurt anything, but other planes might do that seeing you land there ? I know what you mean about loosing rights, we are getting alot of flack up here at our small airport and its all aimed at Super Cubs. They call me direct for any problems. I want to help keep the peace at these airports like you do and I will E-mail them also. Hope it helps

Bill
 
Here is the email I sent to John Wilson:
Hello John,

I was stopped today by the airport manager and was told not to take-off, land, or taxi on the grass at Aurora State airport. I asked the manager what my violation would be and he rattled off some regulation that I do not remember at this time. He told me that I would loose my pilot license if I continued to use the grass and he would report me to the FAA.

I just contacted the Portland FISDO office (FAA) and spoke with David Long and Penny Ratliss and we discussed the FAR regulations and they could not find any violations if I used the grass at Aurora State Airport. I explained that a number of pilots here use the grass and I have been using the grass personally for 25 years. They told me that if the airport manager or anyone filled a complaint against me for using the grass at Aurora State that the FAA would not cite me for any violations.

There may be rules at the Aurora State airport stating the grass in not usable, but the facilities guide does not state that, it is not public knowledge and therefore I intend to continue to use the grass at Aurora State airport. I am a property owner at the airport and I purchased my hanger (on deeded land) under the assumption that I could use the grass as I have done for the last 25 years.

Thanks for your consideration,

Doug Keller, P.E.

Keller Swartwood Engineering, Inc.
22781 Airport Road NE Unit A1
Aurora, OR 97002
(503) 678-2833 tel.
(503) 680-0705 cell
(503) 678-2837 fax
www.ksepdx.com

Here is what the FAA sent me:
Doug, I talked to our expert here at the FSDO, and we do not have anything that say "you cant land on the grass"... but with that, you need to be cautious of FAR 91.13,... if the airport management has a policy of no airplanes on the grass.. and you do it, it could be reckless. With that said, my recommendation it to work with the airport manager and come up with an authorized grass landing area.. this would solve the problem. Let me know if you come up with any other info, thanks, dave long


Doug Keller <dougk>

02/03/2010 02:53 PM
Please respond to
dougk@ksepdx.com


To
David A Long/ANM/FAA@FAA
cc

Subject
Landing in the grass at Aurora Airport
 
There are airport meetings held every couple of months. I will find out when the next meeting is and let everyone know. the more people who attend the better our chances are. If you come to the meeting, I will set up the B-Q and provide everyone that attends with dinner and drinks in my heated hanger, it could be a fun.
 
Doug
Give me a call and let me know the date and time of the meeting and I'll do my best to be there.

Dennis
 
Doug if is state owned I would contact the state aeronautics people and get their position on it.Someone must have authority at a higher level.It may be that the grass is not officially an approved runway and the manager is covering his backside.Lot's of airports here have no problem with folks using the grass with the understanding it is at their own risk.

Bill
 
You may want to find out what the procedure is to get on the airport board. Our airport is county owned and appointments are made by the county commissioners. With a state owned airport there is probably a state office, maybe Oregon Aeronautics, that makes the appointments?

I've been on our airport board for many years and we have an unmarked strip parallel to our runway that some of us use all of the time. And it is always an intersection takeoff and taxi after landing. We've discussed it in our board meetings and everyone is on-board with the use. However it it wasn't for a few of us on the board that appreciate the value of a grass strip it wouldn't have happened.
 
I think as someone noted earlier that it's important to try to understand what the airport manager's or airport board's rationale is for this "rule".

Is it a liability thing? If so, there may be ways to deal with that.

Is there a concern, as someone noted, of damaging the grass in wet conditions? There may be ways to deal with that.

If you don't even know WHY they're laying this on you, you are working at a disadvantage from the git go.

I'd contact the airport manager, and find out WHY this "rule" was enacted, if it indeed IS a rule. I'd want chapter and verse, and then research it.

Without some basic information like that, you are going to be less effective in fighting it, AND, you give the Airport manager the opportunity to get his ducks in a row when HIS boss asks the question. If you ask officially for this information, and he can't produce a policy or regulation, then there IS no regulation. If he DOES produce a policy or regulation, then ask WHY it was enacted, and by WHOM.

Then, you'll know who to go talk to, or if there's no regulation or policy, you can pretty much ignore it.

As to people whining about this kind of thing, unfortunately, Pogo had it right: "I have met the enemy, and he is us".

The litigation that goes on in this country has EVERYone scared of their shadows, and oftentimes when someone gets sued, we all lose another freedom or two.

Liability or the fear of liability drives a lot of this stuff, perhaps unnecessarily, but people will sue for the darndest things these days.

Wish Toyota luck, for example. Uh, people can't figure out how to shut off the ignition or shift into neutral? Sue the guys who made the car!!

MTV
 
Doug,

Ditto what DW said. I'll be happy to contribute to the cost of dinner.

Bob
 
Doug,

Good luck there. There are many of us out here who recognize and honor what you accomplished with building the first Carbon Cub, the husky Cub, and your latest Cub creations.

Let your awareness of our recognition of your accomplishments give you the strength to make your shoulders broad, tall, poised and humble as you present yourself to the Airport Commission and various powers that be.

Hopefully, common sense will rule. Here in Virginia, there is a positive and sympathetic airport manager at the Warrenton-Fauquier Airport who is opening a new grass runway to serve his taildragger population, right here in this day and age....anything is possible.

Bob Breeden


www.AlaskaAirpark.com
 
Here is some more background information:

About two weeks ago a guy in a C180 landed in the grass parallel to the asphalt runway and scared an instructor and student that was landing at the same time. The instructor called the FAA and made a complaint. From what I have learned the incident has been taken care of, the person flying the 180 called the FAA and I think it is resolved. Yes, the pilot in the C180 was reckless and made a bad decision. I don't think we should all be punished for one persons mistake. If someone cuts someone off on the ashpalt, I don't think they would shut the aspalt down. They should punish the person that made the mistake rather than shut the grass down for all.

Another issue is that some taxi lights have been broken in the past and that costs the State money to repair/replace. These taxi lights are massive and cemented into the ground, if we were to hit one it would leave a mark on our aircraft and would require major repair. I don't believe any of us have damaged any lights, I don't really know how lights have been damaged in the past. If I was to hit one I would know it.

These are the two reasons the airport manager is claiming that they are cracking down on using the grass. According to the airport manager the rule has been in effect for some time, but now they are going to enforce it. This is the first we, pilots at the field have heard of the rule.

If we show opposition in numbers I think it can be reversed. I understand that this does not effect most people on this site, but your support is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Doug
 
If an airport does not have the grass designated as a runway, would a landing on the grass be considered an 'off-airport' landing?

Would your insurance company be reluctant to pay in the event of an accident if you did not land on an available runway but landed on the grass?

Anyone have any knowledge on this aspect of the problem?
 
My Email

Dear Sir,
Please re consider any rule prohibiting the use of grass adjacent to the runways at Aurora State Airport. Pilots who are based on the field and many of us who travel to, or may travel through the area consider this to be an asset to the airport and we would like to see the grass area operations restored. I think any research would conclude that there is no appreciable damage or liability cause by this type of operation. I look forward to any response, especially any response, with mention of how this rule came to be enacted and what event, if any, caused it to go into effect.

It has also come to my attention that intersection departures are no longer allowed at Aurora State Airport. . I would also welcome any response in this matter as well as it clearly something that is the decision of the pilot and no other person.

Thank you,

Grant Wallace
 
Skagway Pilot,

I've talked to a couple of insurance providers in that regard, and they said that if you're insured for off airport operation, you're insured for off airport operation. If you are NOT insured for off airport operation....guess what?

Just because the off airport operation occurred NEXT to an airport, you'd still be covered, assuming your insurance covers off airport ops.

I agree fully that if a guy in a 180 did something stupid, fix THAT, don't start enforcing a bunch of rules that have obviously not been needed for years.

If there is an airport board, I'd go to them, and try to get the regulation changed. If it's a state owned airport, talk to the state jurisdiction.

I'm always amazed that some folks feel that an "uncontrolled" airport needs to have thousands of "rules" to keep us from hurting ourselves. Good grief, uncontrolled airports have operated safely for decades. And, oftentimes, the really ugly stuff actually happens at CONTROLLED airports.

I think you may have a case to go to whomever makes the rules, and argue that you've been landing on the grass for a long time, as have a number of other folks, and this has only caused a potential problem once. So, do we really need a rule?

MTV
 
We have lots of rules in SoCal - one of them was no stop and goes. That rule practically kills taildragger instruction, since a taxi back session can drag on and on for a few landings.

So we went to the airport manager, and explained how dangerous it is to re-configure a big taildragger while rolling and how training would suffer if we had to taxi back. He listened, then issued a letter exempting taildraggers from the rule. It took a while to get the tower folks convinced, but now we do stop and goes.

Being reasonable is the key - I am not at all sure our airport manager appreciates my activism, but still he responds to many reasonable arguments. If only I could get him to issue a rule mandating that runups either be conducted in front of the owner's hangar or in the runup area . . .
 
ksecub:

In your first post you mentioned that you can't use the intersections for takeoff anymore. What's up with that? I can see (although I don't agree with) him inventing a reason not to use the grass, but I doubt he has a leg to stand on for no intersection takeoffs. That's an approved procedure, like, everywhere.

I also found it interesting that the Fed's response to using the grass was that it could be construed to be "careless and reckless" if it was prohibited at the airport. OK, so it's not careless or reckless if it's not prohibited. I don't see how it depends on what the rules are. It's either safe or it's not. If it's not prohibited but you land on the grass and then pull onto the runway in front of someone else, it's careless or reckless.

Let us know, especially about the intersection takeoffs on the pavement.
 
Down here, intersection takeoffs are prohibited due to noise. Other places have some heartburn about controllers losing track . . .
 
As pilot in command you are the final word as in what is considered safe operations. The airport manager is not in the airplane to make that decision and unless it is posted for all to see somewhere he is out of gas on this one!!! "Clearly Posted"

He does have the "No Intersection Departure" posted for all to see, he does not have the no taxing through the grass posted so again you are pilot in command, you can make that decision for yourself.

I for one will continue to land in the grass & taxi through the grass.

The downside to you making the decision to land in the grass and then having an accident will be the careless and reckless rule will be on you.

He can not stop you unless you let him. Make him prove he has the stones to back it up. He will probably cave like our forest ranger buddy.

Greg
 
I agree with Greg above. We have an airport manager that wants to be a Sheriff from time to time and will make stuff up that has absolutely no foundation in law whatsoever. His boss has reeled him back in on many occasions. Apparently his union protects him from any further action.

Like stated, make them produce the regulation, if it is truly there.

gb
 
Having busted a few myself, I can guarantee that the runway lights were busted by the mower, mowing the grass, not by any airplanes....
 
a) It is my responsibility to operate my aircraft in compliance with regulations. It is my responsibility to know those regulations. Doug has stated that he and others have operated off the grass for some time and only recently became aware that this practice was prohibited by rule. The proper action is to get the rule changed or obtain a waiver. Operating in defiant violation hurts everyone.

b) I've accidentally taken out a few lights with my 180. One with the tailwheel and two with the right main. It was easier than you'd think and caused no damage to the plane. Those came while operating from an approved runway. Stuff happens. Especially in 30mph gusty crosswinds. :D

SB
 
Runway lights are normally put in with a break-away system so they don't cause any damage, I have knocked a few over here at Joseph with the Mower and have watched a Kitfox take a couple out there and the guy didn't even know it (no marks on the plane!) Knowing John I can tell you that he answers to a few others abouve him and he will do his best to help but I think there is a Liability issue that the State and Federaly funded airports have to cntend with. I will give john and Mitch a call and see what there is that can be done and give you a heads up.
 
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