Another fine mess

[WWhunter]

This is another instant that is similar to the post Bill posted about problems in Wa. albiet this is in MN.
http://www.startribune.com/local/81162897.html

Reading some of the comments sure tells you how ignorant and uninformed the public is.

[Tim]

What a crock. The authorities don't have anything else to worry about than 2 guys going to lunch? :crazyeyes:

[behindpropellers]

Sounds like my future...... 8)

[old doc]

I am very interested in seeing how this plays out in the courts. As far as I know in Minnesota the FAA has control over our airspace and the DNR has control over navigatable waters. I wouldn't think the county could designate surface water as a park. The land around the lake yes but the lake itself? It is probably more cut and dried than I think!!

[behindpropellers]

Its a joke.


Just read the replies. People are dumb.

[WWhunter]

Soryy, no joke. Here's another article:http://wcco.com/local/lake.calhoun.airplanes.2.1418745.html

The comments are definitely a joke. Some of these people need to get a friggin life!!!
I guess this irks me since I live in the boonies and just this fall I had a Deputy Sherrif drive into my yard after I had just put my plane in the hangar from an afternoon of flying around. He had someone call and complain I was flying to close. Heck, I was over the state forest for cripes sake!!

[mvivion]

Ya gotta be careful about waterbodies, folks. If the waterbody, in this case a lake, is considered under federal law as a "navigable water", then it is very unlikely that the county, city or state will have any legal jurisdiction over what goes on there. Unless the entity with jurisdiction (generally the federal government, but not always) has specific regulations against landing there, any kind of "commerce" is permitted on navigable waters.

On the other hand, if this is a small, relatively land locked lake, it may well be a non-navigable waterway, by definition. If that is the case, whoever owns the shoreline also owns the lake surface.

And, there is virtually no obvious indication whether a water body is in fact considered to be navigable or non navigable. I've seen some totally land locked lakes that were determined to be navigable. I've seen navigable determinations on "rivers" which were actually tiny streams, and the "navigable" argument came from dogsled travel in winter.....go figure.

In any case, if this lake is in fact non navigable by definition, and the county or city owns the property around it, they can prohibit airplane landings and there's no recourse, except to try to change their statutes governing use.

MTV

[old doc]

My mistake was assuming public water and navigable waters were one in the same.

[superchamp]

That yellow and orange champ looks familiar, I could swear I've seen it on floats up here in northern MN, anyone know the guy?

[mvivion]

What a bummer. I looked at the lake on Google Earth, and it's a pretty big lake, right smack in the city. Looks like it could be a fun place to park and have lunch, etc.

Too bad the city doesn't agree.

Oh, well.

MTV

[aktango58]

If they had looked into it, it would seem that the obvious solution (for the sake of cit popularity in pilots minds) would be to reduce this to a warning so pilots understand it is 'by permission only' and let it go.

We pilots should just get together and boycott the city for a year. Funny how much sales tax/tourism dollars can affect minds :D

Mike, there is a big push up here to make everything navigable, even if it is only used by airboats.

The good and bad come with this. The good is that we do not get our pencil pushing bura-nazi telling us not to run our boat or plane on the river/lake. The other good is that there are many streams that have native allotment land on each side, (mouths of some creeks at tideline), and if it is not navigable, the water by definition becomes private, and you have to have permission to cross it; not easy if you are not related :bad-words: :bad-words:

So by determination of navigable, the river becomes public for travel.

The bad side is that now to operate a boat for any type guide operation, you have to have a Coast Guard Liscense. :-?

But learning and seeing some of the things going on with allotments, it will be a good thing I believe to have them owned by the Govt.... can't believe I said that :o

[mvivion]

George,

I got far more involved in this very issue when I worked in Kodiak. What a huge can of worms.

The problem, though, is that you can't just decide to call a piece of water "navigable". That determination literally has to be made, probably by a court, based on history of use. If the determination doesn't come from a court case, it may be made, but is always contestable, and it probably will be at some point.

I've seen "navigable" streams based on a history of someone waaaaaayyyy back running dog teams up and down it. I've seen some streams that clearly had historical boat traffic that weren't considered navigable. I've seen lakes that had no inlet, no outlet that were "navigable" :o .

Remember that typically, navigability is based on commerce. So, how is transportation on a small lake with no inlet or outlet used in commerce? Been done.

It's not simple at all. You're right, though, if the Native Corporations own land surrounding a navigable water course, they can't legally stop you from running a boat or seaplane on the water column. They can, however, still prohibit you from coming ashore, OR from standing in the middle of said stream in waders, fly fishing....Don't ask how I found that one out.

MTV

[aktango58]

Mike,

It may not be simple, but the Coast Guard here one year stated: that river is navigable... and it was forevermore.

Yes there was boat traffic, (jet boats and airboats).

A lake in the wilderness, well, if tours are on it :oops: that is commerce.

The stream issue is that fish and game walks some for fish studies. or hunters have used them. A guy gets an allotment of 40 acres spanning a stream, he essentially shuts the steam off. What a crock... so much for being created equal!

I am ranting on this. It gets tiresome fightning pelosi, obama and the rights put above mine by kids younger than me...

[cubdriver2]

Burger Jones Honors Naughty Pilots :D
scroll down


http://www.skiplane.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1263248467

Glenn

[behindpropellers]

http://www.burgerjones.com/Images/NaughtyPilots.jpg

[cubdriver2]

Thanks Tim, some day I have to sit down with some 3rd graders to learn how to do that :lol:

Glenn

[mghallen]

Either Lake Nokomis, Calhoun or Lake of the Isles used (or does still) to have a "party boat" that chuggs around. If I remember the city or parks disrict operated an old wooden cruiser for special events. Am I mistaken?

Mike

[mvivion]

Good for the burger joint!! At least somebody has their head screwed on straight.

MTV

[Grant]

I had heard that the ordinance says "aircraft may not park on property" can we just do touch-n-gos?....