Alcohol smuggler? AK bush

[scout88305]

http://newsminer.com/news/2008/jun/05/head-ambler-air-accused-importing-alcohol-dry-vill/#comments

[fatcub]

Boy, we should really purchase that part of Alaska from the Russia. It would be nice to liberate that part of the world and show them what freedom is. But seriously it's hard to believe that dry communities still exist in Alaska. Well you see Texas and Alaska are alot more alike than you thought.

Scott

[hooligan]

Not an uncommon occurrence... I remember a law enforcement officer getting nabbed for the same thing twenty or thirty years ago. The lure of big bucks can allow poor judgment to prevail sometimes...

[mvivion]

fatcub,

Go spend some time around Fort Yukon or other "wet" villages, and maybe you would appreciate the notion of dry villages a bit more.

The people in these villages make that choice, not you or me. If they ban importation of alcohol, it is enforceable by the Troopers, and they do.

If you don't want to visit or live in a dry village, that is your right.

I'm not anti alcohol, but I've sure seen what its abuse has done in some villages, and I sympathize with those villages who are trying honestly to deal with it.

MTV

[Hyrdflyr]

Mike is right on.

Read "Raising ourselves" by Velma Wallis to maybe understand first hand what alcohol has done to the bush communities and the families there.

I began flying in the bush with the attitude of "live and let live" but after innumerable trips spent hauling abused women and children to the regional health clinic and some with a body bag, I have no respect whatsoever for those who would make a buck hauling booze to the villages.

At one point I concluded that almost every flight we chartered after normal working hours was a bootlegger.

We had a ball bat in the baggage chute where some of us like minded pilots would "Massage" the baggage before it went out to the plane in the cart. After a while and the delivery of some pretty wet baggage to the clientele, the night trips started to be a lot fewer.

I was almost midaired going into one village one night by a light twin departing a village on the Kobuk with no radio call and showing no lights.

There's a lot of money in it. During dividend time one year, I picked up a passenger in a village whom I recognized from a previous day's flight, and on the way to town he bragged about how he had managed to get a case of booze into his baggage on the earlier flight. He was headed into the local AC store to buy a new snowgo with the $6000 bucks he made selling one case of booze.

Yes, you read it right.

[mike mcs repair]

Pilot pleads guilty in bootlegging case

http://www.adn.com/news/story/434930.html

[glaciercub]

I was like others too, live let live... then I spent time in bush, saw things you wouldnt believe. Children abused, hungry, left alone for days...and thats only the tip of iceberg. If they made me surpreme dic for the day
I'd make the whole state dry.... this coming from a guy who had liquor
stores in anchorage from 1970 thru 1982. Hey I like a beer once in a while, but I'd gladly give up my right to have one if it helped one child-one family!

Ok I'll shut up now..........

[glaciercub]

Forgot...paper today said he paid $55,000 fine ...

($20,000 fine and $35,000 to get his plane back)

Tough Lesson, wonder if he learned anything?

[Gary Reeves]

Seems that there is another end to the story here. How about the other end of the supply line - the user - the abuser. The other end entices the provider.

Seems the State provides the user with all the means to afford the problem and never stops the flow from the buyer end.

GR

[Gary Reeves]

Seems that there is another end to the story here. How about the other end of the supply line - the user - the abuser. The other end entices the provider.

Seems the State provides the user with all the means to afford the problem and never stops the flow from the buyer end.

GR

[dpearce]

One statistic alone makes this pilots sentence a pretty light one. That statistic is the incidents of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome among the Alaska Native population which is about 5.6 per 100 in the native population. That compares to about 0.6 per 1000 in the general population. There are others such as the rate of cirrohsis etc. but the FAS statistic says the future doesn't look bright either. Going into some of the villages after the PFD checks hit you'd believe it.

Sometimes I wish there could be a moratorium placed on passenger flights to/from the native villages after the fishing season ends and after the PFD checks come out. Something to prevent the money being blown in one huge alcoholic orgy.

[mit greb]

Well Don't that beat the Band :bad-words: Probation didn't' work in the last century it ain't going to work today. :roll: What is wrong with personal responsibility :crazyeyes: There are people that commit real crimes assault, theft.............. That don't get sentenced as severely as Dave did. Get a grip and have a drink :drinking:

[dpearce]

All for personal responsibility and accountability, all the way around. In this case (based only on this highly reliable news account :o ) both seller and purchaser were sorely lacking both. I have VERY little use for an individual who will knowingly purchase, transport and sell a prohibited item of any type. Particularly when there is ample evidence of the damaged caused by the sale and use of said item. Such as is the case here. Under these circumstances I consider them on par with a murderer which in some cases they are, just a bit slowly....

[glaciercub]

I cant argue with you, but it not about those who choose to drink or not but those who are innocent and get hurt by those who do.

It's not a perfect world, never will be...we just gotta do the best we can.
Protecting the children is my primary concern, and always will be.

I can appreciate your view, I not against choice.... it abuse I'm concerned
about.

Appreciate the voice, all of yours.

[mit greb]

All for personal responsibility and accountability, all the way around. In this case (based only on this highly reliable news account :o ) both seller and purchaser were sorely lacking both. I have VERY little use for an individual who will knowingly purchase, transport and sell a prohibited item of any type. Particularly when there is ample evidence of the damaged caused by the sale and use of said item. Such as is the case here. Under these circumstances I consider them on par with a :bad-words: murderer which in some cases they are, just a bit slowly....

Hog wash! If you drink yourself to death don't blame the people that made the booze. :bad-words:

[dpearce]

All for personal responsibility and accountability, all the way around. In this case (based only on this highly reliable news account :o ) both seller and purchaser were sorely lacking both. I have VERY little use for an individual who will knowingly purchase, transport and sell a prohibited item of any type. Particularly when there is ample evidence of the damaged caused by the sale and use of said item. Such as is the case here. Under these circumstances I consider them on par with a :bad-words: murderer which in some cases they are, just a bit slowly....

Hog wash! If you drink yourself to death don't blame the people that made the booze. :bad-words:

If you would look at my previous statement you will see I don't mention those who made the booze, I specifically mentioned those who knowingly supply those at risk (addicts or those prone to addiction) with the booze. Very big difference. I fully realize there are beneficial uses, in moderation, of specifically alcohol. It is not those situations I am pointing to.

Do you understand that once addicted to a drug then choice isn't an option any longer? In short, if you would like to you can have a little visit with those at the Mayo Clinic and others who have done the research, addiction causes a rewiring of the brain to demand more. Up to a point individuals have an ability to accept or reject more of a drug. The time to addiction is dependent on personal differences, drug type, drug purity etc. After that point is reached the body will demand whatever it takes to get more unless external restrictions are put in place. Lacking those external restraints, if you put the drug of choice in proximity of the addict they will consume it even if it means their death. Are there exception to the above? Yes, but they are few and far between.

If you believe I'm enjoying a bit too much of this drug we're talking about then go have a chitchat with some of the village health aides or the VPSOs in the villages that deal with this. While having that chitchat bring up the question of how many in their position have contemplated suicide due to watching friends, family etc. drink themselves into oblivion due to addiction and people willing to make a quick buck supplying that addiction. While being helpless, due to a multitude of factors, to effectively treat, and/or manage the decline of those loved ones. It might change your mind regarding the right of anyone to freely supply drugs of any type to anyone they choose just so they can make a bit more jingle in their pocket.

[mit greb]

If you would look at my previous statement you will see I don't mention those who made the booze, I specifically mentioned those who knowingly supply those at risk (addicts or those prone to addiction) with the booze. Very big difference. I fully realize there are beneficial uses, in moderation, of specifically alcohol. It is not those situations I am pointing to.

Do you understand that once addicted to a drug then choice isn't an option any longer? In short, if you would like to you can have a little visit with those at the Mayo Clinic and others who have done the research, addiction causes a rewiring of the brain to demand more. Up to a point individuals have an ability to accept or reject more of a drug. The time to addiction is dependent on personal differences, drug type, drug purity etc. After that point is reached the body will demand whatever it takes to get more unless external restrictions are put in place. Lacking those external restraints, if you put the drug of choice in proximity of the addict they will consume it even if it means their death. Are there exception to the above? Yes, but they are few and far between.

If you believe I'm enjoying a bit too much of this drug we're talking about then go have a chitchat with some of the village health aides or the VPSOs in the villages that deal with this. While having that chitchat bring up the question of how many in their position have contemplated suicide due to watching friends, family etc. drink themselves into oblivion due to addiction and people willing to make a quick buck supplying that addiction. While being helpless, due to a multitude of factors, to effectively treat, and/or manage the decline of those loved ones. It might change your mind regarding the right of anyone to freely supply drugs of any type to anyone they choose just so they can make a bit more jingle in their pocket.

Forget it! You don't get it! If your an addicted to something don't blame others cause you can't stop. Guns don't kill people......

If you know VPSO's and health aids that are having trouble coming to grips with what is happening, tell them to quit.

[dpearce]

If you would look at my previous statement you will see I don't mention those who made the booze, I specifically mentioned those who knowingly supply those at risk (addicts or those prone to addiction) with the booze. Very big difference. I fully realize there are beneficial uses, in moderation, of specifically alcohol. It is not those situations I am pointing to.

Do you understand that once addicted to a drug then choice isn't an option any longer? In short, if you would like to you can have a little visit with those at the Mayo Clinic and others who have done the research, addiction causes a rewiring of the brain to demand more. Up to a point individuals have an ability to accept or reject more of a drug. The time to addiction is dependent on personal differences, drug type, drug purity etc. After that point is reached the body will demand whatever it takes to get more unless external restrictions are put in place. Lacking those external restraints, if you put the drug of choice in proximity of the addict they will consume it even if it means their death. Are there exception to the above? Yes, but they are few and far between.

If you believe I'm enjoying a bit too much of this drug we're talking about then go have a chitchat with some of the village health aides or the VPSOs in the villages that deal with this. While having that chitchat bring up the question of how many in their position have contemplated suicide due to watching friends, family etc. drink themselves into oblivion due to addiction and people willing to make a quick buck supplying that addiction. While being helpless, due to a multitude of factors, to effectively treat, and/or manage the decline of those loved ones. It might change your mind regarding the right of anyone to freely supply drugs of any type to anyone they choose just so they can make a bit more jingle in their pocket.

Forget it! You don't get it! If your an addicted to something don't blame others cause you can't stop. Guns don't kill people......

If you know VPSO's and health aids that are having trouble coming to grips with what is happening, tell them to quit.

Sorry, sir but I believe you are the one that "doesn't get it". To actually say "If your an addicted to something don't blame others cause you can't stop." displays full well your lack of understanding of the nature of addiction. Addiction by it's very nature and definition says your body is demanding it and only through external assistance can you overcome that demand. Nope, guns don't kill people, but here is the part you don't get.... You don't give a loaded gun to a person talking about suicide and then expect folks to believe you when you say "well golly gee I just don't understand why Rufus there blew his brains out".

[mit greb]

psycho babel!! You have succumbed to the save us from our selves disease. :evil:

[dpearce]

psycho babel!! You have succumbed to the save us from our selves disease. :evil:

Interesting interpretation of my last few statements. So, it's your contention that it ought to be just a-okay to make money off of the addiction of others? If I come wandering through Fairbanks distributing crack cocaine or perhaps some meth to anyone who has the bucks that it's just fine by you? Perhaps if I just hand it out for free just to get the addiction going and then jack up the price so I can sorta pad my retirement that's just fine right? Got any friends and family you want me to start with? After all it's their fault if they get hosed with the stuff and you don't care so should be just fine.... Oh, it's not okay? Hmmmm, now ya know how those folks out in the remote areas feel.... Oh, and it doesn't have to be crack or meth I could just bring up some spray paint and hand out instruction on huffing..... Eats the brain out right now.....

[alaskadrifter]

Also don't forget that these villages have some of the highest suicide rates. I don't believe beer=bad, but there is no doubt in my mind that it is a catalyst to all of that is happening.

[mit greb]

psycho babel!! You have succumbed to the save us from our selves disease. :evil:

Interesting interpretation of my last few statements. So, it's your contention that it ought to be just a-okay to make money off of the addiction of others? If I come wandering through Fairbanks distributing crack cocaine or perhaps some meth to anyone who has the bucks that it's just fine by you? Perhaps if I just hand it out for free just to get the addiction going and then jack up the price so I can sorta pad my retirement that's just fine right? Got any friends and family you want me to start with? After all it's their fault if they get hosed with the stuff and you don't care so should be just fine.... Oh, it's not okay? Hmmmm, now ya know how those folks out in the remote areas feel.... Oh, and it doesn't have to be crack or meth I could just bring up some spray paint and hand out instruction on huffing..... Eats the brain out right now.....

Yep now I think you got it! You have written a lot of words too my few, but you haven't said anything. As I said Prohibition didn't work in the last century it isn't going to work in this one. Crack meth If you want get high you will find a way. The maker and transporter of Alcohol is not a murder. Keep trying to blame some one else.. It seems to be the way of the weak today. Now where did I leave my Beer :drinking:

[dpearce]

While we agree that an addict will do what it takes to get the drug of choice. We will continue to disagree that the folks who make the drug available, particularly when they know exactly the consequences, are anything but murderers. It's a convenient excuse by those wanting to make money by enabling and encouraging the misery and death of others while keeping their conscience clear.

Oh, this might help:

Murder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

In case those beers are already impairing the understanding of the English language I'll include this:

Malice - The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another

Pretty much describes (since I don't consider making money just cause in this case) a pilot knowingly purchasing and transporting alcohol into a dry village with residents known to have an alcohol addiction which will eventually lead to death due to alcohol related poisoning.

Enjoy the beer..... :drinking:

[mit greb]

While we agree that an addict will do what it takes to get the drug of choice. We will continue to disagree that the folks who make the drug available, particularly when they know exactly the consequences, are anything but murderers. It's a convenient excuse by those wanting to make money by enabling and encouraging the misery and death of others while keeping their conscience clear.

Oh, this might help:

Murder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

In case those beers are already impairing the understanding of the English language I'll include this:

Malice - The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another

Pretty much describes (since I don't consider making money just cause in this case) a pilot knowingly purchasing and transporting alcohol into a dry village with residents known to have an alcohol addiction which will eventually lead to death due to alcohol related poisoning.

Enjoy the beer..... :drinking:

Nice try. I'm glad there are still enough people living in this country that believe in freedom, to counter your wrong headed thinking.

Cheers :drinking:

[dpearce]

I'm just glad to know there are a whole lot more people in this world who know what freedom comes with personal responsibility. And that responsibility means they don't use the excuse of making a buck to maim and kill their fellow human beings.

[alaskadrifter]

I'm just glad to know there are a whole lot more people in this world who know what freedom comes with personal responsibility.

Especially when you are responsible for children. I was on a trip in one village helping in the kindergarten class, and some of the kids told us that they weren't able to come to school the day before because their parents were too drunk. It broke my heart, and angered me because many of these kids' future(s) were getting shot down before they even had a chance to make their own decisions. Freedom is great, but if you cannot handle the responsibility of it, then that freedom should be restricted.

[mvivion]

Look, folks..this isn't "us" putting some artificial restriction on "them". In all cases, rural Alaska villages that are dry or damp have CHOSEN themselves to go that way. In other words, it is people in that village who CHOOSE not to tolerate alcohol in THEIR village. If you then import alcohol into that village, you should be hammered.

This isn't prohibition as it was applied in the early part of the last century in the entire country, and it's not been applied for the same reasons.

The good news is that if you don't want to be restricted in your alcohol consumption, it's easy enough to stay away from these villages.

Personally, I respect their willingness to try to address a serious issue. Will they succeed? Who knows, but many of us have seen the results of NO action, and that's sad.

MTV

[mit greb]

Hog wash Mike the same stuff happens in Anchorage and Fairbanks every day. To equate someone that sells alcohol, to someone that wants it as a Murder is as wrong as anything I have ever heard. Freedom is not always a pretty sight it allows people to make mistakes. Prohibition is Prohibition it doesn't work, the only one that can make an Alcoholic stop drinking is the Alcoholic. They started another panel in Fairbanks to do something about the Drunks here, how many times have we done that now?

[dpearce]

Tim,

Please go read my posts a bit more thoroughly. I have never equated those who sell alcohol as a murderer. In fact you will note in one of my replies above that I believe alcohol has it's useful place. What I have said is that those who violate the prohibition in certain dry native villages are murderers.

That prohibition was put in place by the residents of those villages. The reason it was put in place was that alcohol was taking over their village (if you want to get into the cultural, socio-economic and genetic reasons behind this we can go there) and they have limited or no resources to fight it. Their latest tactic is to prevent it's entrance into their village entirely. If you go a bit back into history (as in just a few years), alcohol was literally killing those villages. Removing it gives those villages a fighting chance at being able to address some of the cultural changes that are making their members turn to alcohol as a replacement for the social structure that used to be there. To return alcohol to those villages will kill those villages as it was doing in the past. That is a simple fact based on personal experience and history of the very near past.

Comparing what is going on or has gone on in Fairbanks or Anchorage, regarding alcohol, to what is going on in the remote villages is not even comparing apples to oranges it is comparing apples to a steel fence post.

[N5126H]

What about this idea:

Make all drugs (includes booze) legal and free. Set up government sponsored 24 hour a day distribution centers all over the country. Destroy the drug problem in it's tracks by taking away the value. Destroy the value and we can help druggies to their end result in the process. Fund rehab centers only for first time visitors.

I also think everyone over the age of 21 should be required to carry a gun. There would be alot more mutual respect in this world if that were the case.

Vote for me..... Free drugs and lots of guns......

AND while I'm on this band wagon, who but nature should tell us how much weight our cub can carry.

Population control the way nature wanted it.

[mit greb]

Tim,

Please go read my posts a bit more thoroughly. I have never equated those who sell alcohol as a murderer. In fact you will note in one of my replies above that I believe alcohol has it's useful place. What I have said is that those who violate the prohibition in certain dry native villages are murderers.

That prohibition was put in place by the residents of those villages. The reason it was put in place was that alcohol was taking over their village (if you want to get into the cultural, socio-economic and genetic reasons behind this we can go there) and they have limited or no resources to fight it. Their latest tactic is to prevent it's entrance into their village entirely. If you go a bit back into history (as in just a few years), alcohol was literally killing those villages. Removing it gives those villages a fighting chance at being able to address some of the cultural changes that are making their members turn to alcohol as a replacement for the social structure that used to be there. To return alcohol to those villages will kill those villages as it was doing in the past. That is a simple fact based on personal experience and history of the very near past.

Comparing what is going on or has gone on in Fairbanks or Anchorage, regarding alcohol, to what is going on in the remote villages is not even comparing apples to oranges it is comparing apples to a steel fence post.

I read what you wrote.......Sell booze = murder. You keep writing more; the more words you write doesn't seem to add anything. Location doesn't matter. As normal with a internet discussion you will not change my mind nor I yours. Can we agree to disagree?

[dpearce]

Yep we can....

[Lippy]

What about this idea:

Make all drugs (includes booze) legal and free. Set up government sponsored 24 hour a day distribution centers all over the country. Destroy the drug problem in it's tracks by taking away the value. Destroy the value and we can help druggies to their end result in the process. Fund rehab centers only for first time visitors.

I also think everyone over the age of 21 should be required to carry a gun. There would be alot more mutual respect in this world if that were the case.

Vote for me..... Free drugs and lots of guns......

AND while I'm on this band wagon, who but nature should tell us how much weight our cub can carry.

Population control the way nature wanted it.


N5126H- Now THAT is funny!

Now, as a disclaimer, I have never nor will I allude to the fact that anyone should break the laws of the government which presides. That said… do laws have anything to do with morality? If a governing body changes opinion on a topic and allows it, such as prohibition (18th amendment) and repealed by the 21st where is the secular injustice? Just because it was illegal, does that make it immoral to consume pre or post 21st? What changed other then the law and public opinion?

Drawing a correlation to the Native populace and tobacco: I recently departed ways after being employed in the tobacco industry. Is tobacco healthy? Ask any 8 year old with a public education and they’ll tell you a bunch of bad things about tobacco. Does it take a rocket scientist to figure out if you smoke 3 packs a day, it probably isn’t overly healthy? Are cigarettes addictive? Ask anyone who smokes. Ok, now we have what is known by the populace as unhealthy (compared to cirrhosis of the liver, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc.) and widely accepted as addictive due to nicotine and other substances (compare to alcoholism) what is the difference? Are the people that sell cigarettes as evil as those who smuggle whiskey? It’s simple, one is legal, and one isn’t. The end product is the same.

If you abuse it or have a genetic predisposition to abuse it one should probably stay away from it. I’ve never taken a puff of a cigarette because I have a pretty good idea it’s not healthy. Do I drink a glass or two of scotch when I’m up fishing? Youbetcha.

Lippy

[mvivion]

Lippy,

I did smoke for a number of years. There wasn't a single time there that I felt the need to kill someone, to abuse a child, etc, etc,

You're talking health issues, largely of the individual, though second hand smoke is getting a rap as well.

I could have introduced you to a guy who served a couple tours in Viet Nam as a medic, got shot a few times, got a few medals. His end was in Fort Yukon, when his drunk wife shot him in the crotch, then watched him bleed out.

Most smokers don't go quite that far.

Tim, we officially disagree.

MTV

[strangeak]

Lippy that's exactly right... the government job is not to legislate morality, there are plenty of organizations to teach that. Governments job is to create laws that we as a group (city, state, nation etc) agree to live under as a society. If those people feel better off in a dry community then the law should be fully enforced, its not right or wrong, its just not legal.

All that aside, I also believe very strongly in personal responsibility. if the place I lived in went dry, I would most likely take great effort to change it, or move, as I value my freedom of choice and gladly accept my responsibility in my choices.

Also, I believe addiction is selfishness and a lack of self discipline as much as anything else, and yes I was addicted, to smoking, and did quit cold turkey over 10 years ago, mostly because i realized i wanted to be alive when my kids grow up and it would most likely kill me.

[mvivion]

Strange,

Well said, and I agree completely.

MTV

[Lippy]

Mike- Even though we disagree I’m still a fan of yours! :wink:

I could type until carpel tunnel set in on second hand smoke but this isn’t the place… BUT you are correct as I was speaking of personal health issues. I believe some folks shouldn’t drink and this ought to be legislated by the “government” only after the individual proved they should **NOT** consume it, via D.W.I, public nuisance, or completing an alcohol related tort. I do think an offender ought to be “dry” while on probation from a chemical abuse infraction but this is crossed in due process within the American (non-native) court system. ***I am not well versed in tribal law so pardon my ignorance of their specific system***

I’m sorry about your buddy who was shot by his wife. Don’t take this as a callous statement as it’s not intended that way but isn’t blaming the murder on liquor like blaming the gun? The lady had possession of the gun :snipersmile: , possession of the alcohol :drinking: , and by what you state, obvious intent. Perhaps the alcohol played a part, but a bottle of gin didn’t pull the trigger… the lady did.

Poor decisions on multiple levels and an absolute tragedy took place.

Lippy

[dpearce]

At some point with any drunk I've been around, the booze starts doing the talking and acting which results in all sorts of things. Some quite entertaining, many are much less so. "Under the influence" is a very appropriate description. None of my guns, no matter how much time I spend with them at the range or in the field tell me when, how and where to aim.

[mvivion]

Lippy,

Oh, don't get me wrong...I don't blame the alcohol. THere is no doubt in my mind that the drunk must take the responsibility.

The trick would be if we could reduce the effects of the stuff somehow. I actually agree with Tim that prohibition doesn't work well.

Villages going dry is just a local stop gap measure. If it helps one kid, it's worth it.

MTV

[fatcub]

Villages going dry is just a local stop gap measure. If it helps one kid, it's worth it.

MTV

That was the thoughts for many Native American nations for the better part of the the last century. It worked to some extent but not very effectively. What has eliminated a large portion alcoholism in these sects is a simple thing called "EDUCATION".


But don't get me wrong, the pilot in question should be singing the smugglers blues. I don't think he was a patriot doing what he thought was right, it was almost certainly about making a profit.

Scott..

[AntiCub]

Personal responsibility is definitely the issue here.
But when an individual abuses their freedoms by not acting responsibly, and endangering other as a result. Such as Drunk driving, FAS etc... What should the community do? Just sit back and shrug, say to ourselves "Darn it, John Doe ran over another kid while drunk today, Oh well, that's his right"? Of course not! EVERY individual has rights, and when one individual tramples on the freedoms of the rest, the have to be stopped. The majority of people living in the dry villages have used their freedom to vote to protect their right not to have their village destroyed by those who choose to drink irresponsibly. Since they can't possibly lock up every single irresponsible drinker, the next best thing is to choose to do without themselves.


As for prohibition not working, well we still have murders in this country, so I guess those laws arn't working either. And I can certainly think of a few drunken idiots I like to take out of the gene pool....of course there's probably a few who'd like to take crack at me too, so maybe we better leave those in place. ;)

Phil