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Cessna 180 Prebuy

Steve Pierce

Steve Pierce

BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Went and looked at a 1973 Cessna 180 in Ft. Worth yesterday for a friend that was advertised as a 9 inside and out. Walked in the hanger and the struts are beat to heck and the paint is flaking off and oxidized. I immediately wonder what else he is hiding. Not a bad airplane but not for the price he is asking. Why do people do this? :evil:

Also, the horizontal stab had nice new shiny paint on it and no dents or dings. The counterweight was beat to hell and the bottom skins were all Cherry rivets. Didn't see anything in the logs about replacement. Did Cessna Cherry rivet the bottom skins on 180s in 1973.
 
It's even worse when you FLY the airlines to a place with intent to inspect and buy only to find a piece of crap. Maybe their vision is as bad as the quality of the photos when it comes to rating their plane. I had called on that 1973 in Ft. Worth as well - green and white? I noticed the exterior photos were pretty grainy. I wish I did NOT share your frustration.
 
I walked away from 7 Cessna 170's before I bought mine. Thank heavens I could fly for free, but it is very frustrating to fly half way across the country, rent a car, meals etc just to look at something that is not as advertised.
I feel your pain.

Bill
 
Bills right, the trick is to walk away. I walked away from two 180's after traveling via airlines, and by the time I found mine I was almost an expert. Sadly, by the way, my 180 is for sale to pay for the new super cub I just bought!
 
When I was looking for my Pitts, I figured out that a lot of folks have a scale that goes to 100. So a "9" is not a very nice airplane. That's the only logic that I could come up with.

I sure spent a lot of money on airline tickets and hotel rooms. :D
 
There is a nice J model out here for sale. I am not a broker, but can tell you about it.

We recently had an elevator re-skinned, and it has no pop rivets. Who knows if it made it into the logs - my impression is that a great many things that are legally required to go in the logs do not quite make it. Alaska airplanes are the worst, log book wise, in my opinion.

The elevator was nicked by a towbar - still flew fine, but the repair shop had to replace it anyway. Looks absolutely flawless now. But the best part was I learned how to re-bush the empennage, and it is now the tightest ship in the west. That is thanks to the help of our fellow forum members, who provided excellent advice.

Do not buy this aircraft - I have far too much fun in the pattern with it. More fun, even, than the 160 Super Cub that only weighs a thousand pounds!
 
That's too bad about the 180. Unfortunately, before I bought mine I did the "get on a plane and fly across country to look at a steaming pile of crap" trick myself. Flew to Seattle from Dallas to look at a "perfect 10," only to see sheet metal problems from 20 feet away that did not show up in the pictures. No, there should be no Cherry max rivets from the factory. As a matter of fact, that's the first thing I look for in the gear box area on an airplane that claims to have "no damage history" or never been ground looped.

I don't know what it is. Either there are a hell-of-a-lot of dishonest airplane sellers or the vast majority of general aviation owners have no idea they own a piece of crap. Unfortunately, I've come across too many of the dishonest ones.

The green 180 in forth worth; not only is it being advertised as a "9 inside and out," it's also being advertised as no damage history. :roll:
 
I agree , I looked at 9 172's 4 years back and all but the last one I looked at were junk . They were all advertised as good to excellent condition . I spent a couple K in commercial flights and rental cars before I finally found a real nice one. It is beyond me how somebody could advertise this way with a straight face. I flew cross country for 3 hours for one plane rented a car drove another 2 hours walked in the guys hanger and this plane was just junk. I wanted to deck the guy but just turned around and headed back to the airport.Very frustrating. By the way the nice 172 I bought is now for sale since my pa-12 project is done if anybody is interested.
 
N4653B said:
... .......or the vast majority of general aviation owners have no idea they own a piece of crap.

:roll:
Click to expand...

One solution so you don't fly across the states to look at junk is to have the owner e-mail you photos with the light at an angle that the rivets and lap-lines are visible. Usually you can see any oil-canning in the skins with photos taken at these angles. Especially get shots of the bottom of the tail, all the control surfaces, and the tops of the wings, and the belly in the gearbox area.

That'll help you to handle knowing what the external of the sheetmetal looks like, which is a good indicator of poorly repaired damage.

Gettting a true sense of the rest of the a/c requires actual hands on.

I've stayed away from quite a few 180/185's after looking at photos taken at the correct angle to show damage.

Good Luck. DAVE
 
We've got enough folks spread throughout the U.S. and abroad that we ought to be able to help each other out. I don't mean a pre-buy... More like a look-see. Someone nearby that can wander over and take an unbiased ~though possibly uneducated~ look at a plane. Maybe take a few digital shots for an email, or even use a few unlimited free long distance cell minutes to describe what he sees to his fellow Supercubber in real time.

No in-depth log checks, no pulling panels, just a look-see by a friend. No decision should be made on whether or not to buy an airplane with this info, but it could very well save someone from an expensive, time consuming trip to look at a hangar queen.

It can be done either out of the goodness of your heart, the understanding that the favor will be repaid in kind someday, or even for a bottle of Crown.
 
Eddy , that is a great idea and I for one would be willing to do that here in Michigan for a fellow cubber or for that matter any fellow pilot.
 
Anyone in the Chicago (aurora airport) area available to do a look see on a 180J for me? Thanks, Matt (208) 867-6757

While I'm at it, I should ask for any advice on a shop for a pre-buy in the general area of Aurora (KARR). The plane is currently maintained by Neil Povanz who contributed to the FAAs booklet on maintaining aging aircraft, so not expecting any problems, but I still feel the need to give it all the proper going over if it meets muster. Thanks again.
 
A lot of these planes are +/- 50 years old now and have been around the block a few times. I'm afraid some of you guys would call my beloved 180 a steamer because it has been wrecked more than once and put together again. There are places that don't look as good as when it came from the factory, and the factory didn't always do a good job. I have seen pictures of brand new Cessnas that look like they have been wrecked, wrinkles all over. But they seem to fly just fine and are structurally fine. If you want a perfect plane you will have to pay a premium, they are out there, but most of us wouldn't be able to pay for one. There is usually nothing wrong with the old spawned out ones, they will do the job just fine. My old spam can amazes me at what it will do, the most flexible plane I have been blessed to fly. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these beat planes that have been rejected might have a lot of life left in them. By the way, mine isn't for sale. So you guys that are searching for the perfect plane might have to put more money in the kitty, or lower your expectations. Just my humble observation..........Ron
 
There are a lot of good airplanes that have been damaged and repaired properly. My problem is when someone advertises a perfect 10 at a perfect 10 price and then I spend my time and a customers money inspecting the airplane to find it is not a 10 and it appears the seller did major work that wasn't done correctly nor documented.
 
Been there done that. Flew clear across the country to look at a helicopter once that wasn't anything like what they said. They weren't even embarrassed. Also bought a Luscombe in CA once that was misrepresented, but I offered them many thousands less than they wanted, and they took it. Only ran out of oil once on the way home....
 
Redbaron180 I agree with you.

The problem is that "average joe-guy" thinks he's got a creampuff, but he's really got a "spawned out" dog and wants the kind of money a creampuff will bring.......and he can't tell the difference...........


.......and I as the prebuy inspector am called an arse for being able to tell the difference.
 
my advice would be engine wise the "O-470-U" less problems and 2000 hr tbo A/C 1979 but that cost money
 
I have a friend that says the '59 is the best, not sure what the basis is for that. Mine is a '64. Cessna did a real crappy job on the panel's till about '76 I think. The very early ones are about 100 lbs lighter, but a lot of that weight is good weight, strengthening weak points. Personally I'd rather have the stronger one. Maybe that is why my friend likes the '59. Some place on here there is a list of the improvements on 180's by year, find that, figure out which improvements you need then buy the newest one you can afford. Bottom line is that all years are good.........
 
I agree that getting a knowledgeable mechanic involved in a good thorough pre-buy is mandatory. Having someone else knowledgeable about the airplane, and willing to look critically at it is also essential.

When I had a pre-buy done on my 170, I had a shop in ANC reputed to be a really good shop (and I believe they really are) do a pre-buy, and they missed two major issues that I'd already found. After the pre-buy was done, I pointed these out to them, and they re-examined the airplane, a little red-faced. I wasn't laying traps for them, but I wanted to see how closely they were looking at the thing.

I also was involved in someone wanting to purchase a "completely rebuilt, better than new" 206. Similar deal--as a good shop was looking at it, I followed along, and pointed out some things that looked a little suspicious, which then led to a closer examination. The shop's recommendation on the plane went from "Good looking airplane" to "I'd walk away", largely on well hidden stuff in the rebuild.

I'm no expert, but when its' my money, I'm dang sure going to take a HARD look myself. I've missed a number of things on airplanes myself, too, and that's the way it goes, nobody's fault but my own in those cases.

Next time I buy an airplane, I'll have a good shop who's familiar with the make/model do an ANNUAL inspection, in lieu of a pre-buy. Particularly if I don't know the shop well. That way, if they miss an AD, or something that is obviously unairworthy, I have a signature in a logbook to fall back on. Also, that way, there should be no excuses that they just were asked to do a quick look at the plane---ie: a pre buy.

But that's me. Once burned......

MTV
 
57cub said:
whats the best models of C-180 to buy. i need some tips!
Click to expand...

That's a tough question to answer because everyone has their own personal list of things they would consider to be "better" or "best" in an airplane. My "best" may not be the same as your "best".

With that in mind, I like the early airplanes. Mine is a 1955, and that's a pretty good year. '56 might be even better because of the O-470-K engine, but I like my -J model just fine. There are things that the '55 has that the '56 and later airplanes don't that I like, such as dual exhaust with separate mufflers and the hidden baggage door release button.

The main thing I like about the early (pre-1960) 180s is the nice light feel of the controls. In 1960 they put a down spring on the elevator for added stability. Not sure why they thought they needed it, but they did. The result may be a more stable airplane, but also a heavier feel to the controls. I like my light control feel! Also, the 180 (like a lot of airplanes - and people) tended to get heavier as the years went on, so the added empty weight and higher gross weights will make the airplanes feel heavier on the controls as well.

On the other side of the coin there's increased fuel capacity (long range tanks were first available in '62) and added room in the cabin (the longer 185-style cabin was used in '63 and later) and higher gross weights of the later airplanes. The later airplanes tended to be a bit faster too.

So as you can see, all the different airplanes have their unique points. What you need to do is look at how you plan to use the airplane and decide which features fit your needs.

You can find lots of info about the different models of the 180 at Joe Stancil's web page:

http://www.skywagons.com/modelchgsweb.html

Hope this helps! Happy shopping!!!
 
As a current seller of a 1981 180K, the one thing I find most important is that I disclose everything, provide lots of pictures and send digital copies of the logs to qualified potential buyers. Nobody with a life wants to waste time on BS. My plane is not a "cream puff", but I would suggest that fresh paint and fancy upholstery are frosting and the substance of a 180 is in the structure and modifications, so as a buyer you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. Also I have a thing against any airplane with low time over 30 to 50 years. I've had far fewer bad experiences ferrying working planes than I have with hangar/ tie-down queens.
 
57cub said:
whats the best models of C-180 to buy. i need some tips!
Click to expand...

I'd be more concerned with condition and value than the year of manufacture.

The ideal 180 for me would be structurally sound, relatively low time, with a run-out engine, crappy paint, and thread-bare interior....for a good price. New paint, new interior, Pponk motor and prop....zoom zoom.

Stewart
 
I'm planning to buy a 180 in the next few months. To cut down on the hassle I'm thinking about using a dealer. I've owned a cub for 9 years but I have no experience with a 180.

Anybody have tips for dealing with dealers in general, or experiences with Stancil? Would you buy an airplane from them? Most of the comments on here about them are positive.

Thanks!
 
I recently took the time and effort to go look at a TU-206 that Stancil has for sale. Advertised with a "fresh annual". One hour with the airplane told me no deal: standing water in the landing gear boxes, one tire with the side wall cut out, many exhaust and fuel stains f/w forward. Very apparent the annual consisted of a fresh coat of paint. I walked away. I have heard that if you can't make it as a used car salesman, go into selling airplanes.
 
180

Hi there can you post the ads to these planes you went to see I would like to look at the pics and see how they are described
 
There is a C-185, Kit plane,called, St-Just Aviation in Canada.Has anyone looked into this ?
 
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