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Overhead flap handle

Marty57

Marty57

PATRON
Nipomo, Ca
Does any one have any knowledge about the overhead flap handle set up that CubCrafters uses with their Sport Cub? Any one flown one with this set up? I am thinking that they placed it overhead to eliminate some of the weight of pulleys and cables associated with the traditional system. Do they use pulleys or a torque tube set up? I am asking because I am intrigued with this flap set up as a possibility for my 2+2 project. Any ideas out there, this might be an interesting mod for an experimental Cub. Thanks.

Marty57
 
It looks like a neat setup, but 2 things come to mind... First, it is just another thing for me to hit my head on (either in a moment of clumsiness or a crash), and who needs flaps on a Cub (or clone) anyway? Slips are a lot more fun. Though I bet f you get a clone with 2 doors and both are open, a slip would not do anything except get rid of your sectionals, etc.
 
I have flown the CC-11 twice and thoroughly appreciated the location of the flap operator. It seemed much nicer than not being able to get full left stick with flaps on or having to take my eyes off the runway to dump or apply flaps. And yes, it does save weight and have fewer moving parts. There is a photo of it under construction in the CC website...I think it is a simple torque tube with a handle. R
 
Marty,
I looked at a Wag Areo 2+2 in the Seattle area once that had Toyota emergency brake handle as a flap handle, located overhead, and to the left. It did not have cables or pullies, but a torque tube set-up that looked pretty good.
Ron
 
Ron,
Any idea of the owner or N number of the 2+2 with the over head flaps?

Centmont,
Do you know where the pictures of the over head flap set up are on the CC web site? I have been looking but can't seem to find it. Any one else out there have any pictures or ideas? Thanks

Marty57
 
I looked for the photos too and can't find them now...they have updated the site and apparently I'm imagining them, or they didn't make the edit cut. There are a few members of SC.org with that airplane and they should be able to help you directly. Ralph
 
My 2+2 has an overhead spoiler handle. When I recover the wings I'm putting on flaps and putting the handle in the same place. It's out of the way and handy where it is.

IMG_0002_Small_.JPG
 
I have the overhead/left flap handle in my new CC11. It works, it'll take a while for me to get used to the position. I,ve got a good number of hours in a super cub and husky, so I'll have to be re-trained. It has tube linkage, no cables. At least you don't run of left aileron room with full flaps. Bill
 
Bill,

When you get time could you post a picture of the the flap handle setup? I am building a stretched pacer that originally came with lap belts. Once I install four points I expect the flap handle to be difficult to get to. As a result I am considering putting it overhead so I don't have to loosen my belts just to pull down a few notches of flaps. Thanks.

Brad
 
Tim,
That's the kind of set up I am thinking about, thanks for the picture. I don't know if it can be done with just simple torque tube or combo of pulleys and torque tube. I am on a hunt for data, I think this can work very well. When is a recover planed for your 2+2?

Marty57
 
I've had the opportunity to fly the SportCub a couple times and really liked the flap handle placement. Even after years of SC and Citabria flying, it seemed very natural. The design is the best part; a torque tube with a bell-crank on the end, and push-pull tube connected directly to the flap. I'll use the same thing on a future project.

nkh


102_0256.jpg
 
Marty
When you get it figured out let me know. I'll probably recover in 2 years, it depends on how long the 0-320 makes it.

Tim
 
NKH,
Thanks for the picture. Ok, I'm hooked, that is how I want to do my flaps. Now, the design process. Anybody have any additional pictures, references, drawings, or ideas I can tap into?

Marty57
 
Marty, here's a shot of the handle at full extension. The idea is really simple; there's a pillow block mounted on the upper structure, the torque tube extends only far enough to clear the fuselage sides and a lever arm is welded to the end. A one piece push/pull tube is bent up so it clears everything and has a rod end with a bearing on the end. And if you run extended flaps, the whole mechanism would be in the wing root making inspection a breeze!

nkh

74426505.jpg
 
NKH,
Ok, I think I am getting the idea. Where are the pillow blocks located? Are they visible inside the cockpit or under the headliner? Also, tube that the flap handle is attached to, does the flap handle rotate around the tube, or does the tube rotate? Is this where the pillow blocks are located, up bu the leading edge of the wing root or is this the front cross tube of the cockpit ceiling? Thanks for enduring my questions.

Thanks,
Marty57
 
Marty, I don't know for certain where the blocks are located on a SportCub, other than they're behind that blue headliner panel. I think the only way to see them is with the wing root off, or the headliner panel out. The flap handle is welded to the torque tube running across the fuselage, that's how both flaps are moved at the same time. Here's a couple pics that may give you a better idea.

This first is of an Aeronca Champ fuselage. Notice there's a structural tube running back from the spar carry-through cluster; that's where i'd mount the pillow blocks.

00303.jpg


This next sketch gives an idea how the whole system is connected. You can interpolate between this and the SportCub pics how it all works. (I've only drawn the right side push/pull rod and flap, but you get the idea)

flapidea.jpg


No problem with the questions, there may be a couple other lurkers wondering the same thing. :wink:

nkh
 
Man, I like the looks of that setup. No cables, no chance of split flaps or a cable coming off a pulley, positive up and down, and out of the way of your left leg.

I'm betting that for short field work, this is going to be THE hot setup.

MTV
 
Nkh,
I think I've got it! :lol: So, the flap would have a simple lever arm attached at it's end and then that arm would be attached to the push pull rod. Having the push pull rod adjustable in length would allow the flaps to be adjusted level with each other; all this sound right? I think it is time to make a mock up. Any thoughts on what pillow blocks to use? I can see why CC went to this system, it saves about a dozen pulleys and associated cables. I suppose if someone did not want to change the stock flap set up in the wing, they could attach a cable to the torque tube and route it into the fuselage via a pulley at the wing root, might also work. Thanks for the pictures, I'm off to the shop.

Marty
 
You've got it Marty. I'll try to snap a pic of a pillow block we've got at the shop. Best I can remember it's aluminum, maybe 7075-T6; really hard what ever it is. I'd keep it as simple as possible and leave out all pulleys and cable. Remember, leverage is the key to nice manual flaps. Simply bend the push/pull tube so it runs under the rear spar while still in the root, then bend it so it goes into the first rib bay through a lightening hole.

Have you ever seen the aileron slave strut on a Monocoupe? I can't count how many times it's bent, so that it follows the shape of the fuselage and doesn't bump anything.

Have fun, when you get something figured out, share it with us. :D

nkh

*****Edit in RED******
 
Nkh,
The bent torque tube you are talking about is the rear one attached to the end of the flaps that a lever arm attaches to, right? The torque tube up front that the flap handle is welded to seems that it could be straight, right? I know, I said I “got it” but ……………… :oops:

Thanks,
Marty
 
Sorry Marty, I left my brain in the other pair of pants today. :oops:
I meant to say, bend the Push/Pull tube. The torque tube is straight like the drawing.

nkh :oops:
 
Marty, I have seriously considered an overhead flap handle too. BUT the 2+2 is flown with your left hand and throttle with rt. So a left of the cabin handle, as pictured, would be fairly awkward I think. Pa 11 or 18's are flown with the right hand so the stick is never abandoned during ldg/to. A center cabin handle would let you keep your lt. hand on the stick but would seem to be in the way when down for full flaps. I have mocked up a center flap handle while seated in my 2+2 fuselage. To get it out of the way when full flaps has it sticking down requires it to be so far forward when flaps are up it would be hard to reach with a tight shoulder harness. A dilemma for sure. I considered a really short flap handle too. But then it would be harder to pull on. So I have mine in the center ala cessna.
 
In anything side by side I would think the C-180 flap handle would be the best. For a Cub, I think the better way would be something on the same longeron with the throttle, moving fore and aft, and accessible from either seat. A bit more complex, but at least less incentive for wearing a helmet. Might be the same as the tailwheel lock on a UPF-7.

Mike has a good point - has there ever been a split flap on a Cub? I know the lever can come out of the groove, making an exciting flare, but haven't heard of a real failure.
 
Ok, great ideas here and great food for thought. For me, being left handed, I don't necessarily fly conventionally. I had to think for a minute how that set up would work for me. One of my problems has always been needing my left hand for taking down notes or clearances. So, I tend to fly with my right hand. How hard would it be to have duel throttle so a right seat could fly? I agree that a middle flap handle would be better, for both right and left seat. So, I think I am going to look at setting it farther back and play with some bends to see if I can make the overhead system work. Another option is to go with a torque tube set up with the flap handle in the middle on the floor between the seats. Not as easy as the overhead, but still might be easier than all the cables and pulleys. The flap handle connects to the torque tube with a push pull rod. The torque tube (with pillow blocks) connects to the flaps with vertical push pull rods up into the wing root. That would only require one additional push pull rod compared to the overhead system. For me, pulling up on the flap handle in the middle of the seats has always seemed awkward to me. I remember my flight instructor saying to me many times, YOUR OTHER RIGHT :evil: . So here we go again, the lefty likes to shake things up. :lol: Any more thoughts here?
 
Bob,

I've had the cable come off the pulley back aft. The good news is that you just quickly go from full flaps to half. In my case, it was a no big deal kind of thing. If you did get a split flap, it would be momentary, by virtue of the design, I think.

The other thing I like about this design is that it must lock in the flaps up position. That means the flaps won't bang around in a bit of tailwind, like they always do when parked. I generally leave the flaps down when parked because of this, but this might offer a little additional protection for that one time you forget.

I still like it and one other reason is that you don't have to make big upper body movements if you are changing flap settings during takeoffs or landings. I think that would be huge in working very short strips.

MTV
 
Thanks Mike. I went in to one that had the flaps restricted to 35 degrees by a well-known Cub rebuilder, and found the cable so slack it was a wonder something bad didn't happen. We have one now that slips out of the first notch. But to me, a Cub only has one notch of flaps - full. I still haven't figured out the water takeoff, but on land, two notches of flaps offers me little in ground roll reduction. Either way, it seems like within inches of 300 feet.

My note to lefty, after thousands of hours shifting from right to left hand and back, is that the hand you use for flying shouldn't be a factor. That's true for the 180, where the left pilot uses his left hand to fly, and a Cub, where the same pilot uses his right hand. As for notes, an airliner has the note pad usually on the window ledge - left of the Captain, right of the F/O, and I promise you, nobody notices.
 
Marty, here's some pics of the pillow blocks I was talking about. We had a guy cut them out on a CNC machine.



nkh
 
Nkh,
Thanks for the pictures. Are there any bearings, or does the torque tube just rotate on the aluminum? I see the zerk fitting. Looks real simple if no bearings.

Marty
 
Thought I would dredge this thread up again.

It seems to me that the push/pull setup would allow a person to create a setup to reflex the flaps a couple of degrees to provide for higher cruise speed. Has anyone tried this and if so, was it worth the extra effort?
I have spoken with a few maule owners who really seem to have no opinion on the reflexed flap issue.

Brad
 
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