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LAKE ANPHIB vs SCUB

supercub88

Registered User
atlanta,ga
With all the talk about how much fun floatplanes are I'm going to go to Browns and get a seaplane rating. I have a 180 cub and a husky and will probably put one on floats. First, though, is there any consideration to thinking about a Lake - Do they handle rough water, speed, Maintenance, etc . Secondly, Do you ever take any floatplane near saltwater ? It would almost be against my relegion to put any fine piece of equipment ( other than a boat ) near saltwater.
 
I heard that learning how to fly a Lake is like learning how to fly a Helio. You almost need a type rating for each.

There was a writeup in Sport Aviation a few months ago and the guy said it took quite a learning curve to master the Lake.

Not to go too off topic, but there is a nifty homebuilt called the Kingfisher amphibian that uses all Cub parts (wing and tail). Supposedly it has none of the weird traits the Lake has.
http://www.anderson-kingfisher.com/

anderson%20EA1%20kingfisher.jpg


From the Kingfisher web site (unnamed source):
''We have recently been given instructions in LA - 200 Lake Amphibian. The difference in water handling characteristics of the Lake as compared with the Kingfisher is most dramatic. The Kingfisher is very easy to take off, land on water and have very little tendency to porpoise. By contrast the Lake is unforgiving of sloppy technique since any application of power results in a disconcerting nose down pitch. This can lead to some sweaty palms when executing a go - around close to the water. Conversely a reduction in power causes a pitch up. The Kingfisher of course responds normally to changes in power settings. Once in the water we find the Kingfisher is very easy to handle. Again, the Lake is very touchy (we have flown both aircraft under the same conditions to confirm this)''
 
I've seen 2 different Lake aircraft here, wasn't too impressed with either one. Sure, they fly fast, look cool (??) but try tying one to a dock.

We have several amphibs come to our floatplane flyin every year, & they taxi up the ramp just fine... NOT the Lake, his gear was well lower than anyone else & we had to drive to the Anahim airport & haul him back. He wasn't impressed either. I asked if he liked it... he said "Well I'd never had one of these before."

Of course YMMV.
 
Bugs,

One of the primary differences between the Lake and the rest of the world, aviation wise is the thrust line.

In most conventional airplanes, when you reduce power, the nose goes down. When you add power, the nose comes up. Generally, and not too dramatically in most cases.

In the Lake, and certainly in the Kingfisher, quite the opposite is true, and with the thrust line that far above the center of mass of the airplane, there is going to be some rotation with changes in power.

So, you're on short/short final to your favorite lake, but just prior to touchdown, you find yourself a little short, so you give it a shot of power. The nose promptly rotates downward, etc.

Both are just airplanes, though. You can't get insurance in a Lake unless you go through Lake specific training, pretty much same as the Bonanza now.

The Lake is a good recreational airplane, and has a lot of merits. Unfortunately right now, it's not a well known airplane outside places like Florida and it is out of production.

Your Husky will make a great floatplane. Just wash it off after being in salt.

MTV
 
The Lake has plusses and minuses like all flying machines.

One very important issue you must be aware of it is a flying boat and requires completely different water handling methods than a float plane.

Many Lakes are lost due to porposing accidents due to improper training.

The Sea Bee is a far more forgiving flying boat than the Lake and tough as a panzer tank.

All in all the Lake is a neat machine if you understand its limitations.

For God's sake if you buy one get training from an experienced flying boat instructor.

Chuck E.
 
High thrust line did not seem to be as big a problem as the critical angle of attack required for landings. The basic rule on adding power is that when you push the throttle forward, with the other hand you pull the yoke back. Always.
Angle of attack is a non-forgiving issue. Too high, and the Lake will ricochet back up in the air with a steep angle of attack. It is not really like a bounce. What happens next to the unwary pilots is they add full power, and don't pull way back, and the thing nosedives. This has been the end of more than one Lake, including one on the Cheaspeake Bay that was used for Lake checkouts.

Angle of attack too low, and the Lake will plow into the water, and can be turned over on its nose. Again, adding power to fly out of that mess really requires a fine touch on the yoke to get a slight climb, rather than dig the nose in deeper and have a high power upset.

I had a ball flying the one owned by a friend and advanced student of mine, who had a CFII rating and lots of experience flying Mooneys and Cessna 206. He scared himself to death up on the lake in Canada where his family had a summer place (the reason he bought the Lake). Said he was landing, glanced off the water, shot up in the air, it nosed over, and next thing the windhield was full of lake. He says he remembered me saying over and over, push with the right hand, and pull with the left. He recovered it, flew 20 miles to a long paved runway, and would never let my fly it on the water again. He replaced it with a Piper Aerostar, to fly to Canada in!

By the way, the Lake company training at that time said that if you do glance off, just hold the wheel all the way back, don't add power, and let it come down on the hull. Now don't you know that would loosen a few rivets and jar your teeth, at best. They said this to try and prevent the power nose dive from 20 feet.

Another problem is trying to sail it up to a floating dock. Low wings and sponsons pretty well eliminate that option.
 
supercub88 said:
Do you ever take any floatplane near saltwater ? It would almost be against my relegion to put any fine piece of equipment ( other than a boat ) near saltwater.

If you are going to run it in salt water you need to do more then just wash it off. Prevention is your first line of action and then you will have to keep an eye on it as corrosion starts eating away at your plane. I am sure the salt water of florida is worse than AK since it is always evaporating in the south.


For prevention it is a good idea to fog the wings and tail with boeshield or another rust preventative. If you are running amphibs you will need to take landing gear apart each year to clean and remove corrosion. Also make sure you check the hardware you have on the plane. SS and Aluminum and Salt do not go well together.

Personally, If you are going to run a plane in salt you really need to build it for salt water from the ground up. Lots of clean outs and chromte primers on everything.

If I can remember I will take some pictures of stuff we have pulled off of the bahama cub after 1-2 seasons down south.

Tim

Tim
 
Chuck-Fairfax said:
I had a ball flying the one owned by a friend and advanced student of mine, who had a CFII rating and lots of experience flying Mooneys and Cessna 206. He scared himself to death up on the lake in Canada where his family had a summer place (the reason he bought the Lake). Said he was landing, glanced off the water, shot up in the air, it nosed over, and next thing the windhield was full of lake. He says he remembered me saying over and over, push with the right hand, and pull with the left. He recovered it, flew 20 miles to a long paved runway, and would never let my fly it on the water again. He replaced it with a Piper Aerostar, to fly to Canada in!

Aerostar....that is a safe alternative :eek: :eek:
 
The Volmer Sportsman is another exp design, similar to the Kingfisher but a pusher-mounted engine. These two-seaters seem to generally be found with smaller 4-banger engines, most commonly Continentals but I've seen Franklins & Lycomings. I believe they've been built with Champ wings as well as Cub. Seems like the high thust line on these and on the SeaBee would cause the same nose-down pitching with power application.
Never flown in a Lake, but I'm not too impressed with watching them operate off runways, they seem like ground-lovers. I've seen one in my area parked on a one-way 1,000 foot backyard strip, that guy must get a real thrill (!!) every time he comes or goes.

Rooster
 
Remember its a flying boat!.
You will never see these aircraft flown out in the bush. they are more a play toy. I have about 25 hours in a LA-200. I found after stall entry it just mushed and sank nose up till power was added. I then added more weight forward in the little anchor compartment, about 25 Lbs along with the 20 Lb. anchor, anchor chain and rope that was already in it. About 50 pounds. this helped a little, but not much. If you put any weight in the rear jump seat, your back to the same problem.

Every landing is a glassy water landing. If you have to go around after a short lake landing approach, it will be a real handfull. Rough water or cross wind landing in a swell with wind chop, I would never do again. To much stuff hanging out to grab water and cartwheel you or flip you.

I also fly gliders and if you look at a lake LA-200 wing, it looks alot like a Blanik wing.

Salt water will eat any flying boat or float plane for that mater. I have more float time than wheel time now and have seen every plane operated in salt salt water get corrosion. the Beavers I flew out of Ketchikan went through total rebuild every 7 to 8 years.
 
Well, I've seen Armand Rivard, who ran the company for years, do some really wild stuff with a Lake. I'm sure a lot of this has to do with experience and good training.

Docks are a no-show, for the most part, with a Lake.

Post something over on the Seaplane Pilot's web site (seaplanes.org). There are a bunch of Lake owners there, and they'll tell you everything you want to know and more about the Lakes.

As to corrosion, my assumption is that EVERY airplane should be thoroughly and professionally corrosion proofed during the building or rebuilding process. Granted, that is not always the case.

I ran a Cub on floats, frequently in and out of salt water on Kodiak for a number of years. It had been there doing that for at least 14 or so years when it went in for new cover (original grade a cotton), and I looked at the airframe when the cover was removed. It had hardly any even light corrosion. The airplane was almost always parked in fresh water overnight, but we took no particularly unusual efforts to control corrosion.

Salt water is way worse in tropical climates, though.

MTV
 
I wonder how those seabee's that have the Corvette engine do? A little akward looking for sure.

On salt water usage, I have to say that finishing a complete rebuild of a Beaver, I hate the thought of starting the corrision, and briefly had considered only fresh water, but then I realized that is why I bought the thing, to fly it around the Puget Sound. But when you put so much into something like this, you do feel very protective.

Ah well...
 
A sales person will do just about anything to sell something.
Like I said, you will never see these planes operated out in the bush.
 
Cpt. Bly,

Never say Never 8) . Forty Mile Air operated one part 135 out of Tok, Alaska for a while.

I agree with you though that they aren't a Beaver. On the other hand, he isn't looking for something to operate commercially.

MTV
 
A friend of mine has a Kingfisher for sale in Alaska right now. It's got a o-360 with a metal prop. He started with an o-320 and as we used it for huntng he decided it needed more power. It has pa12 wings. Flown in it many times and it works.
 
Lakes and Cubs

I might consider comparisons between Cubs and Lake amphibs kinda strange expect for the fact that I owned a Lake for eight years and have flown a SCub for 28. Boat and float, they are very different seaplanes and call for very different handling. But the Lake in particular requires a good check out by someone who has experiece in this ship. And it takes a few hours to get used to pulling back on the yoke as you go forward with the throttle, thanks to the high, overhead pusher engine. The Lake is a good flying, nice cross country aircraft that can carry a lot more than a Cub. But it is not as forgiving in rough water, particularly if you screw up and start working that throttle. Playing with the power comes natural to tractor pilots, but it can spoil your day in a pusher. I find the Cub a lot more versatile for out of the way places and a variety of water and docking conditions. On the plus side, the Lake is a great short field, X-wind ship, if you are based on airports most of the time or don't mind beaching or using a buoy when docks are not approachable. And it is unnecessary to go thru the semi-annual gear change I have to do with my Cub. Do some reasearch - both of these ships have been written about to death, including a few articles of mine. (As an old Lake owner I see that I'm still inclined to defend the a/c. You never have to do that with a Cub. Perhaps that too should tell you something.)
 
Last summer I had my Cub on floats over to the Park Point sea plane base in Duluth, MN. There I sat in my elected lawn chair, sitting in the sun, :drinking: counting the seconds it took for the planes to get off the water. (I know, kinda pathetic for a 24 year old guy). The Lake amphibian took the gold medal for the day. The plane had 2 guys in it, with moderate luggage. The temp was mid 70’s with about a 10 mph wind. It took them 56 seconds to get the thing off the water!

Just in thinking, 55 seconds is darn near 1/60 of an hour, or near 1/1,440 of a day! LONG DARN TIME!

Lippy
 
lake vs scub

STAY AWAY FROM ALL SMALL HULL TYPE SEAPLANES. THEY ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AND WILL TRY TO KILL YOU. THE SUPER CUB IS THE BEST SMALL FLOAT PLANE IN THE WORLD!
 
Zio- What a fabulous first posting! Welcome to our dysfunctional aeronautical family!

Lippy
 
I had a hand prop J-3 on floats, then moved up to elec start PA-11 on floats, then moved up from there to Lake LA-4 200. What a mistake !! Thought I would need another college degree to fly it, and the wings flap like a chicken hawk in even light turbulance. Mine only had 500 hours total time since new and it was a maintainence nightmare. Now as a landplane it was great. Good land handling qualities except for steering. And it lands like a Bonanza---- Almost lands itself. But on water, you have your hands and your brain FULL. Never so glad to sell a plane and see it fly off !! Now I fly an overpowered Cessna 172 on Edo 2440's. Much better. But I really prefer A cub on floats. Can put my Super Cub on straights for 10K or on Amphibs for 40K or more. That is the hard-- and expensive-- reality as I see it. Ain't nothin like a Cub on Floats !!!
 
Steve J.

I agree 100%, compared to all 2 seaters the Super Cub is the best. As a matter of fact its better than most 4 seaters, since some cant even carry 3 without takeing the whole lake to get off the water.

I have flown the Huskey on wheels and floats. they are good but there not a Super Cub. And they cost alot of money. That is why I have 2 Super Cubs. One on wheels and the other on Edo 2000, and I also have a PittsS1S all for less than a Huskey on wheels.
 
I have a close friend who over the years had several lake amphibians... He flew them all over Alaska... Hunted moose, caribou and sheep out of his lake with great success... He has often encouraged me to pick up a lake... For me... I like functional.... Short.... Fast... large Useful Load... Not sure the lake falls into any of these categories... but its a personal thing... As far as the handling.... Its all what you get used to.... I used to fly a Grumman Widgeon and had a ball in it... I fly my cub in a different manner than I flew the widgeon... both are a joy to fly and both will kill you without due respect.... I think a Lake could be alot of fun in Alaska but I don't think I would keep one long term... The cub on the other hand is a staple Item... You can experiment with different airplanes but never trade your cub in for something else...
 
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