Professional Kit Builders

I have searched the threads and no luck. Is there a Professional Builder around the mid-west that someone could recommend that has experience with Smith Cub Kits? That does quality work on time?

Just buy a real flying cub and you will have the same amount of $$ in it.


Otherwise: John Gordy in canada and there is another in Minn??

Tim

Tim,
I got one of those. I want a Smith. Who is the guy in MN?

paul romine said:

Is there a Professional Builder around the mid-west that someone could recommend that has experience with Smith Cub Kits? That does quality work on time?

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Keep in mind that it's not legal to have someone else build an airplane for you and certificate it in the amateur-built category. Yes, this is done, but there has to be some falsification of federal documents taking place in order to do it. Such falsification is punishable by up to $10,000 in fines and up to 5 years, or both. While a number of these "pro built" aircraft do indeed slip through, the FAA is becoming more and more aware of this issue and several airworthiness certificate applications have been denied recently.

A "pro built" aircraft could be certificated in the experimental exhibition category, and indeed that's where the ones that get denied amateur-built certification end up, but that's not nearly as desirable as an amateur-built certificate.

A word to the wise,

Joe

Joe,
If a "professional builder" built a kit in his own name and then "sold" it to another person who may or may not have helped build it, wouldn't the only restriction be that the "new owner" not be able to apply for the repairmen certificate? I always assumed it would be the same as buying a used experimental.
Just curious....

Taledrger said:

If a "professional builder" built a kit in his own name and then "sold" it to another person who may or may not have helped build it, wouldn't the only restriction be that the "new owner" not be able to apply for the repairmen certificate?

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The question in this case becomes one of intent. The regulation allowing the certification of amateur-built aircraft is 14 CFR 21.191(g), which states in pertinent part that the major portion of the aircraft "has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."

The key word is SOLELY. A "pro builder" who from the start undertakes the project with the ultimate goal of selling it (presumably for profit) is not building the aircraft SOLELY for his/her own education or recreation. He/she is building the project for resale. This being the case, the aircraft does not qualify for an amateur-built certificate.

On the other hand, a person who truly does undertake the project solely for their own education or recreation, with no pre-intent to resell the project, may in fact resell the incomplete aircraft to another party at some point without jeopardizing the amateur-built status. The new owner can simply complete the project, and the total amount of fabrication and assembly of ALL builders (as opposed to any one builder individually) will be taken in total to meet the major portion (aka "51%") requirement for amateur-built certification.

The bottom line is; anyone who hangs a shingle out as a "pro builder", or in any way offers to build a kit (or plans-built aircraft) for someone else for any compensation other than their (the person doing the building) own education or recreation isn't acting in accordance with 21.191(g), and the resulting aircraft does not qualify for an amateur-built airworthiness certificate.

This does not preclude an amateur-builder from hiring someone to instruct them on the building of an aircraft. This is how the legal builders assistance centers operate. The amateur builder can take a project to a facility, pay to be instructed on the various construction methods and practices, and still be considered an amateur builder (and the airplane an amateur-built aircraft). They cannot, however, drop the project off and pay others to build the aircraft for them.

Hope this helps!

Joe

paul romine said:

I have searched the threads and no luck. Is there a Professional Builder around the mid-west that someone could recommend that has experience with Smith Cub Kits? That does quality work on time?

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Try your local EAA chapter. They should know someone.

More west than mid but Steve Tubbs in Caldwell, ID.

Thanks for the info. I found a local guy that is real good and he is going to help me.
Paul
I think we all know about the 51% rule.
God I hate to be lectured!!

paul romine said:

I think we all know about the 51% rule.

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Actually, you'd be surprised how many people DON'T know about the 51% rule. I get calls on a weekly basis asking very basic questions about who can do what and what kinds of certificates a certain aircraft would be eligible for. There are new people coming into aviation all the time, so there's always some educating to be done.

paul romine said:

God I hate to be lectured!!

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Well sorry I blew up!! That's the thanks I get for trying to make sure you don't get a nasty surprise when to go to apply for the airworthiness certificate after you've spent a ton of money on the airplane.

Do what the hell you want! (Just don't ask me to hang paper on it!!)

Joe

Joe,

I think I read the original post in the same light you did. Thanks for your informed reply.

John Scott

Longwinglover said:

I think I read the original post in the same light you did. Thanks for your informed reply.

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Thanks for the note John. I appreciate the reply. I'll know better than to open my mouth next time though!!

Joe

Joe

Please try not to let this one post dampen your participation. You have been a tremendous resource and it is greatly appreciated.

Bill

delete

Joe,

Keep the info comin'....we all learn something every day...we can only hope!!!

Paul,

Don't buy a Smith Kit (no longer Smith BTW) with out checking out the new SUPER 18 from Dakota. Last I heard Turbine Cubs of WY are still along way out on orders. Dakota is all PMA parts (unless you mod) and I'll bet they will get you going right away. Their kit is competively priced and they are really good guys. If we don't rebuild our H**** I'll be flyin' a SUPER 18.

Joe, I for one appreciate your reply.

This character doesn't want advice because its content is inconvenient. He gets snotty when faced with correct information that would frustrate his apparent intent to ignore or circumvent the rules. I encounter that type on the freeway all to often - you know the ones, you're going 5 over the limit, and some joker runs up from behind, 10 feet from your bumper, and starts flashing his lights - - -

This guy apparently has little regard for EAA's efforts to make and keep at least part of the FARS favorable to us. I sure wouldn't respond to that individual again, but some of us, myself included, are just all too happy to be offered good solid advice from a knowledgable professional. And if we know all about the subject we don't have to read it.

Please do not hesitate in the future.

Thank you Joe, for your thoughtful and pertinent posts.

The problem with the internet, the written word in general, is that it is difficult to accurately portray the demeanor with which the statement was intended.
Paul's statement may have been meant in jest. Joe's reply, tongue in cheek...
Bottom line is, this is the best forum going and it's a credit to everyone.
Ask a technical question on the Husky forum and you'll get little or nothing, start a thread about headsets or, for heaven sake, flight suits and you'll get two pages.

Bob, Check prices on those Husky parts before you decide to rebuild. I bet you would be money ahead to let the insurance company have it and build a SC.

Taledrgr, you're right, of course. If I was out of line I apologize.

Thanks Steve, I've been getting those vibes...BTW sorry I missed sayin' hey at NH. I was only there for the pig roast and everytime I looked over you were swamped with admiring fans. Kinda like going to a rock concert, Yuck, Yuck. Thought I'd catch ya befpre I had to go but then you were doin' AN AIRSHOW. Good one by the way...

Yea, I was sorry I missed you. there were so many great people there. Any flying I did was up and around entertaining my co-pilot Lee. Finally getting the hang of the Pacer sort of.

I do appreciate Joe's input on the forum's but I know where Paul is coming from. Some of us need some builder assistance. Besides, what is the difference in someone building a homebuilt for you and you buying one already built. I know a guy that started an SX300 which is a very complicated airplane. the best thing he did was get an experienced builder to finish it for him. He never got a repairman's certificate for it either.

Sure didn't mean to stir a ruckus!! I guess I just assumed that since we are in the Experimental Forum that we kinda all new about what is legale and what is not. And that depends on which FAA guy you are dealing with too, by the way. Didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. Was just having a little fun with a response to what sounded like my Dad lecturing me about 50 years ago. It was a very informative post from Joe.I was looking for someone local to farm some of the work out. And I did. Thanks for all the input on this forum. No better place to come, if you want to know anything about a SC. I'll shut up now!