Cessna 180 Checkout
- Thread starter S2D
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Dough Head
Registered User
4AK6/DVT
You might check with Tom Clements at DVT in North Phoenix. If your friend is interested, give me his info and I'll pass it along to Tom.
bob turner
Registered User
Could do it for you in your aircraft in the San Diego area.
Here's what you are up against: Insurance to instruct in ones' own aircraft is now prohibitive - a quote on my J-3 was about seven grand per year! Flight instructors who have enough 180 experience to do a good job are also old enough to worry about insurance coverage. And most of them don't want to instruct full time - they want to enjoy aviation!
I have my students name me on their policy, then get me a waiver of subrogation. Even then, the student's survivors could sue me for malpractice, and I'd have no coverage.
Most insurers now demand ten hours in type, unless the pilot has extensive experience in similar aircraft. I have 5000 hours taildragger time, and my insurer wanted me to get five hours' dual in the Decathlon. By then, I already had it home . . .
Here's what you are up against: Insurance to instruct in ones' own aircraft is now prohibitive - a quote on my J-3 was about seven grand per year! Flight instructors who have enough 180 experience to do a good job are also old enough to worry about insurance coverage. And most of them don't want to instruct full time - they want to enjoy aviation!
I have my students name me on their policy, then get me a waiver of subrogation. Even then, the student's survivors could sue me for malpractice, and I'd have no coverage.
Most insurers now demand ten hours in type, unless the pilot has extensive experience in similar aircraft. I have 5000 hours taildragger time, and my insurer wanted me to get five hours' dual in the Decathlon. By then, I already had it home . . .
Dough Head
Registered User
4AK6/DVT
Mine's not broke, but I'm not an instructor either. If you've ever seen me fly, there wouldn't be any question in your mind.
bob turner
Registered User
Mike: Next checkout that comes my way, I am going to do just that - I had to pass on a Husky job, because the owner's insurance wouldn't execute a waiver for any price!
aalexander
Registered User
Anchorage
bob turner said:
This is sometning that bears repeating, and emphasizing. It is not enough to be "listed" or "approved" on someone's insurance policy. Hte insirance company will still come after you to recover damages. You need to have a waiver of subrogation, or be listed as an " additional named insured" Only then are you protected from subrogation (fancy word for the insurance company suing you to recover thier loss)
bob turner
Registered User
Being listed as an additional named insured is good, but not when you are instructing. My insurer told me they never subrogate, and that I didn't need the waiver. I then asked why they charge so much for it . . .
Instructor insurance is complex enough to require a law school class in it. Don't instruct unless you are covered or have no assets. Don't even sit in the right seat of your buddies' airplanes, if you hold a CFI and are not insured. All opinion.
Instructor insurance is complex enough to require a law school class in it. Don't instruct unless you are covered or have no assets. Don't even sit in the right seat of your buddies' airplanes, if you hold a CFI and are not insured. All opinion.
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Bob is absolutely right on this. You really need to get in touch with the insurance carrier PRIOR to instructing in ANY aircraft. Some insurers', such as AVEMCO, for example, automatically cover a QUALIFIED instructor (note the key word-emphasis, emphasis--if you are instructing in a Scout, say, and have 50,000 hours of tailwheel time, but one hour in a Scout, you are NOT a qualified instructor, by most insurance company's assessment) giving dual instruction to the named insured. If you then become a "named insured" you will NOT be covered, since the named insured is specifically PROHIBITED from giving dual instruction in the subject airplane.
In that case, you'd want to get a letter of subrogation, since you'd be covered, but AVEMCO (just an example) could still subrogate against you if you were found at fault in the accident. And, you WILL be, if you're instructing, or as Bob says, even if you are just sitting in the right seat.
Some insurance carriers, on the other hand, want an "approved instructor" to be an additional named insured (or some other legal term--forgive me, cause I'm not sure the exact terminology), in which case the instructor should do that AND get a letter of subrogation.
Finally, GET WITH NAFI and take out some liability insurance coverage, at least, as an instructor. If anything bad happens, a year later, and the guy does something really stupid, his heirs can come back at you and claim that you taught him to do all that stuff.
Look at the John Denver accident. Wasn't an instructing accident, but a family of a guy with more money than anyone but Bill Gates sued some poor homebuilder who was just trying to build a safer airplane. But because he changed the design, and Denver wasn't able or knowledgeable enough to switch tanks, he crashed. The builder got sued, basically to teach him a lesson.
Who do you think won that one?
Protect yourself, CFI's and Bob is absolutely correct: If you are seated in the right seat of an airplane, and you hold a CFI, even if you've never flown one of these aircraft, the NTSB and FAA will find you to be PIC.
MTV
In that case, you'd want to get a letter of subrogation, since you'd be covered, but AVEMCO (just an example) could still subrogate against you if you were found at fault in the accident. And, you WILL be, if you're instructing, or as Bob says, even if you are just sitting in the right seat.
Some insurance carriers, on the other hand, want an "approved instructor" to be an additional named insured (or some other legal term--forgive me, cause I'm not sure the exact terminology), in which case the instructor should do that AND get a letter of subrogation.
Finally, GET WITH NAFI and take out some liability insurance coverage, at least, as an instructor. If anything bad happens, a year later, and the guy does something really stupid, his heirs can come back at you and claim that you taught him to do all that stuff.
Look at the John Denver accident. Wasn't an instructing accident, but a family of a guy with more money than anyone but Bill Gates sued some poor homebuilder who was just trying to build a safer airplane. But because he changed the design, and Denver wasn't able or knowledgeable enough to switch tanks, he crashed. The builder got sued, basically to teach him a lesson.
Who do you think won that one?
Protect yourself, CFI's and Bob is absolutely correct: If you are seated in the right seat of an airplane, and you hold a CFI, even if you've never flown one of these aircraft, the NTSB and FAA will find you to be PIC.
MTV
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Bob,
I can't cite the case for you, but I once read a case where there were three guys in a Cessna (I believe), the guy in the left front was a pilot, the other two were CFI's, and the FAA cited both the CFI's as PIC, even though the guy in back didn't have access to controls.
Certainly in the back of a Cub or similar airplane, the guy in back is likely to get blamed for SOMETHING if he's a CFI. Always got pedals back there, even if the stick is removed.
MTV
I can't cite the case for you, but I once read a case where there were three guys in a Cessna (I believe), the guy in the left front was a pilot, the other two were CFI's, and the FAA cited both the CFI's as PIC, even though the guy in back didn't have access to controls.
Certainly in the back of a Cub or similar airplane, the guy in back is likely to get blamed for SOMETHING if he's a CFI. Always got pedals back there, even if the stick is removed.
MTV
Taledrger
SPONSOR
SW Michigan
Guess I'll just always get the front seat then...works for me.
Seriously, I ride with a couple of friends quite abit in their airplanes, a Cessna 172 and a 310R, I told them that as I do this for a living I can't afford to have them screwup. In that light I will call BS on anything they are doing that I feel puts me in jeopardy. I'm more concerned about violations than I am an accident. The situation has come up and at first they were somewhat offended. After we discussed it they understood and since it has never been an issue. They fly safer and Iamb comfortable in the fact that I have the trump card, so to speak.
Seriously, I ride with a couple of friends quite abit in their airplanes, a Cessna 172 and a 310R, I told them that as I do this for a living I can't afford to have them screwup. In that light I will call BS on anything they are doing that I feel puts me in jeopardy. I'm more concerned about violations than I am an accident. The situation has come up and at first they were somewhat offended. After we discussed it they understood and since it has never been an issue. They fly safer and Iamb comfortable in the fact that I have the trump card, so to speak.
bob turner
Registered User
Pretty as that one is, I wouldn't be teaching in it either.
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