Do any members use Loran?

[Speedo]

I haven't seen a loran in a plane in ages. Do any of us use them?

[Brian Fox]

I just bought a Super Cub that had a Apollo IIMorrow Loran installed. I have since taken it out since I already had a GPS. Don't even know if it still worked.

Brian

[Dave Calkins]

I've chucked two over my shoulder into the trash can on the same day...........about 10 years ago.

Do people still use them?

[flynlow]

I had a old loran that you had to input the lat/long for the destination. I took it in for annual and my A&P had a half dozen old Northstars on the shelf with the built in data base, I had one installed to replace the old one.

It works great, just like a gps with no moving map. Best part... it was free, my mechanic gave it to me and charged me only the installation.

Flying xcountry to Lone Grove recently, it blinked 'unreliable signal' a couple times but always was right on.

When the sunspots hit and knock out everyone's GPS's in the near future I will likely still be navigatin'.

steve

[mvivion]

There are a couple of problems with loran C. First, and foremost, in my mind is that a loran unit will lie to you about your position, all the while insisting with veracity that it is telling the truth. Your position may be 20 or 30 miles off, but it still thinks it knows where its at.

The accuracy depends heavily on the geometry of the aircraft compared to the transmitting stations, of course. My problem seemed to be that I was always living and working along a baseline extension, and therefore had terrible accuracy. Sometimes it'd be right on. Sometimes it wouldn't have you in the right state.

If you have good geometry it works okay.

These units are all getting old now, but you still see a fair number in aircraft. They don't seem to get used much, though, having been superceded by portable GPS.

I wouldn't give you 2 cents for a really good one in working order.

At one point several years ago, the Coast Guard proposed to close down the loran system, and everybody raised hell and put a brick under it, AOPA, EAA, NBAA, the airlines, etc. Even though nobody was actually using the stuff, everybody screamed, so the politicians left it in place.

In my opinion, this is one of the more expensive wastes of taxpayer money there is in government right now.

MTV

[Longwinglover]

Well, Mike,

AOPA is at it again:

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2006/060503loran.html

John Scott

[Dave Calkins]

Did I mention that the units that went in the trash were both in working order, with trays and antennas? :D

[Scruffdog]

I have an Apollo ll.....still works real well. Took me from Woodland CA (O41) to Colville, WA (63S) and back with nary a glitch. No more parts for it so if it goes, it's gone. Still a backup for GPS though since the VOR's are going away.

[Speedo]

John Scott has hit on my concern precisely: from what I can see, Loran is obsolete and has effectively been superceded by GPS. I have not seen a Loran in use for at least 10 years (although we now have proof of at least one person who still uses theirs!).

If maintaining the loran network were 100% free, I would have no issue with opposing its decommissioning. However, I suspect there is a cost (perhaps a significant cost). I also suspect that if we calculated the cost on a per loran user basis, we'd find it would be cheaper for the government to install a Garmin 530 in each loran user's panel than to maintain the network. Absent the hard figures I can't criticize AOPA's position, but common sense tells me that opposing the loran decommissioning is not worth fighting about.

[Hyrdflyr]

There are a couple of problems with loran C. First, and foremost, in my mind is that a loran unit will lie to you about your position, all the while insisting with veracity that it is telling the truth. Your position may be 20 or 30 miles off, but it still thinks it knows where its at.

I wouldn't give you 2 cents for a really good one in working order.
MTV

We had a lot of aircraft equipped with them in the late 80s early 90s. After almost getting killed by one a few times I never used them again.

Headed right into the hills in whiteout still showing good signals putting me somewhere else.

The worst compass is better than the very best loran. At least you can tell when it's screwed up.

I'm sure they DID kill a few pilots.

[behindpropellers]

I think the primary basis of keeping lorans up is in case we do not have the GPS system. Although, if they change the resolution of the GPS system we (general aviation) probably will not be flying anyway.

I personally think they should shut down the loran system and use the funding on technology to improve traffic avoidance.

Tim

[jnorris]

I haven't seen a loran in a plane in ages. Do any of us use them?

I still have a II Morrow FlyBuddy LORAN in my Cessna 180, and I won't take it out until they shut of the LORAN chains (which I hope they never do). I use it as a backup for my Garmin 430 GPS. I like having another completely separate nav info source.

Cheers!

Joe

[zane]

I'v got one in my plane, but I just bought the aircraft and haven't had time to rip it out yet. It actually works pretty well, but what's the point when such awesome GPS technology can be had so cheap?

Did I mention that my plane also has an ADF? Getting to the cockpit is like taking a trip into yesteryear.

[MacNab]

Still have a II Morrow Flybuddy in my plane. It makes a nice backup nav tool and I set it for our destination after takeoff on long trips so my wife can monitor our progress since she can't see my yoke mounted Garmin 196 very well from her seat. Like Joe, I'll rip the Loran out when the system goes away or the unit croaks. The biggest problem is the database is toast, so I have to carry twenty year old charts with me to get some of the airport identifiers correct.

I've got an ADF too, Zane, and it's goin' bye bye at the annual next week along with the marker beacon receiver I never use. It'll be nice to get rid of the extra draggy antennas too. Gotta do a new weight and balance because of some other changes I'm making, so I might as well do it all at once.

[Hyrdflyr]

Call me old fashioned, but one adf is a better backup than any 10 lorans, and two is better if your GPS goes out when you need it.

Go up above the Arctic Circle where the compass is mostly worthless and an ADF will get you home when everything else craps out.

Besides, you can listen to the radio!

[MacNab]

Unfortunately, there's no distance or ETE read out on the ADF, so it isn't much use to my better half. Don't spend much time above the Arctic Circle either. It also weighs a lot more than the Loran, so...seeeee ya!

[zane]

Besides, you can listen to the radio!
I do like the fact that ADF shares the AM radio band. They put AM stations on sectional charts don't they? My dad tells a story about my grandfather tuning in a station in Montana in their Commanche and following it into a town when they were trying to outrun a thunderstorm. I still think ADF is kinda neat, I just wish my combo receiver/DF unit wasn't such a huge brick.

[jcrowles]

I think one of the main reasons LORAN is still in use has to do with the NAVY using it in their Submarine fleet. If you remember, they used it to navigate under the Artic ice pack from Greenland to Alaska a few years ago if I remember correctly !!

[bob turner]

The Apollo is still in a number of airplanes I fly regularly. I like it! GPS is better, but I always hook up the destination in the Loran - one more source of info. ADF is still a great thing on an ILS - I actually hate marker beacons! They wake me up! Sometimes that's scary!

[mvivion]

jcrowles,

The Navy hasn't used loran as primary nav in submarines for a while. The primary nav comes from an INS, which is updated from star shots periodically. I never spent much time under ice in my submarine days, so I don't know if loran works there or not.

There is a low frequency communications system that works under ice, but it doesn't have anything to do with loran.

MTV

[fobjob]

My old Loran makes a dandy wheel chock/conversation piece in my hanger.....

[cubscout]

My old Loran makes a dandy wheel chock/conversation piece in my hanger.....

Now THAT's another great idea Fobjob!

Now I know what to do with the four old Narco Mk3's gathering dust in the hangar. :lol:

[fobjob]

Back in '93, a bunch of us were flying to Moose Creek, Id. over the Chamberland Basin using our spiffy new lorans for navigation, and someone inevitably said:"Boy, what did we do before Loran?" S. T. answered immediately and said:" Yeah, I remember what we used to do, we used to argue all the time about where we were!" :o He was right.....

You out there, S.T.??

[cubscout]

Ummm, Fobjob, think I might'a'coulda' heard you ol' boys arguin' both times. Course with my ol' Mk3 (Fer those NOT in the know, it's pernounced MACH3 in the avionics world). 'Course with the Mach3 Transmitter, I couldn't come back at 'ya an' setcha straight....

Thanks. cubscout

[cubscout]

Ummm, Fobjob, think I might'a'coulda' heard you ol' boys arguin' both times. Course with my ol' Mk3 (Fer those NOT in the know, it's pernounced MACH3 in the avionics world). 'Course with the Mach3 Transmitter, I couldn't come back at 'ya an' setcha straight....

Thanks. cubscout

[fobjob]

I would think those things would be too valuable to use for wheel chocks....just for the vacuum tubes....

[cubscout]

Heck, Frank, I've got a shoebox full of vacuum tubes I'd be willing to donate to a good cause, at MY shipping expense.

And then my mom's old 1926 Grunow 5-tube superheterodyne radio reCEIver still works. 'Course it only plays old music.....

Thanks. cubscout

[T-28]

I'm probably not as sophisticated as a lot of folks, but I remember trying to find a carrier in my name-sake with a map, a compass, an airspeed indicator, a watch, and a wonderful computer called a brain, all in the dead of night. Jes, I would have given my left one for a loran unit.
Have a Northstar in the cub, and turn it on and set the destination first thing after turning on the electrics. Then I punch up the gps moving map. MY LORAN is wonderfully accurate. (compared to dead reckoning)
It isn't a moving map gps with topo, but it knows where I'm headed. It is a back-up to my gps but it doesn't care.
I'm old enough to know that there are some things that I can't change, and just have to accept... that the gov supports the loran for whatever reason is one of those things. My brother says "take the freebies", whether it be women or business ... or the loran system. I think that he is right. As long as the feds keep the loran system working, I will use it as another piece of information in an effort to get home and see my kids tomorrow. You guys can junk yours if you want.
Incidentally, my loran is digital and weighs less than 2 pounds. Most people can lose that much by going to the bathroom before they fly.

[fobjob]

My loran was an off brand, which generated some radio interference, and after I got my moving map GPS, the mounting tray for it became too valuable as a glove box....then the LCD screen went TU, so it became a wheel chock. I agree that an ADF is a better backup than Loran, and I am going to install one of my Narco ADF-31's if I ever get enough ahead of entropy to have the time....(i.e., fixing things all the dang time) Your story about the carrier was a fine example of how the new nav technology has taken most of the obnoxious work in flying away(navigation) and left us the fun......

[Greg Smith]

I've chucked two over my shoulder into the trash can on the same day...

I also suspect that if we calculated the cost on a per loran user basis, we'd find it would be cheaper for the government to install a Garmin 530 in each loran user's panel than to maintain the network.
Hmmm... Crazier things have happened care of Uncle Sam.

I think I hear Dave rummaging in the trash now...

[jk]

Sold mine on ebay. those ebay'rs will buy anything. Dave?

JK

[Champdriver]

Don't Forget all those stations have to be manned by some poor 18 to 38 year old folks that uncle sam will be paying. Regardless if they are out on the stations or sitting watching TV and Palying gameboy. Many good time were had in Alaska on Loran Stations... We still have a few pilots here in the midwest that keep thier Loran Receivers in the aircraft for training. Doesn't hurt to teach alternative navigation while working on an Instrument rating...
Champdriver

[SJ]

Sold the plane with a Loran in it, pulled the ADF out of the other plane (and the A-N range antenna bubble). I think it is time to move on. I would rather see them spend the money spent on manning loran stations by increasing the usefulness/accuracy of GPS, ADS-B, etc.

What would be great, is if the FAA would mandate (or subsidize with Loran money) a much lower cost for updates to GPS data - terrain, obstical, and nav/approach info. It is presently a proprietary storage format for otherwise free information.

sj

[Ruidoso Ron]

I removed the Flybuddy II, but left the rack in the stack. It makes a dandy holder for sectionals.

[MacNab]

I saw this on Ebay today if anyone here is interested in replacing their old Flybubby Loran with an easy swap. The database is out of date, but the price is right.

II Morrow Apollo 820 GPS Flybuddy (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/II-Morrow-Apollo-820-GPS-Flybuddy-Avionics-Aircraft_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ26436QQitemZ46 39313745QQrdZ1)

[zane]

I saw this on Ebay today if anyone here is interested in replacing their old Flybubby Loran with an easy swap. The database is out of date, but the price is right.

II Morrow Apollo 820 GPS Flybuddy (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/II-Morrow-Apollo-820-GPS-Flybuddy-Avionics-Aircraft_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ26436QQitemZ46 39313745QQrdZ1)
That's it, Doug. Mine's coming out and going up on ebay. That auction was at $158 when i checked it, and it'll likely go higher as the last few snipers bid it up. It's a nice discount on a 296.