ski plane technique

[jetech]

I am looking for real world advice on flying with skis from people that actually know how.

I have a light weight experimental TEAM Himax. It is a high wing, tail wheel plane capable of short takeoffs and landings. It has a cruise speed of 65 to 70 mph and gross weight of ~600 lbs.

I would appreciate any information on good technique and what not to do.

Also, I plan on building and rigging my skis and have info from other successful builders on this topic but am always open to design and construction ideas.

Thanks for any help

[aktango58]

buy a good shovel to fit in the plane, good engine cover, snowshoes, sleeping bag...

don't leave without them

Where do you live?

Have you flown floats?

Too much to teach over the internet. Too many snow variables. Get someone with experience to follow for a while.

I can send you some articles on it to help. Send me an email address.

[mvivion]

Jetech,

Good advice from aktango. There are more variables in ski flying than all the other kinds of flying put together, and more ways to get in trouble.

Ditto on survival gear. Don't fly skis without it. ALWAYS plan on spending the night wherever you land, and most of the time, you won't need to.

Get some back copies of Pilot Getaways Magazine (first two issues of 2005, I believe). I did a couple articles on ski basics. But, its just basic stuff.

Find an instructor or someone who's done a lot of this stuff, and spend some quality time with them.

If your airplane is underpowered, don't put it on skis, unless you never plan to get into deep snow.

MTV

[don d]

I built some skiis for my experimental and started flying skiis cold turkey, My advise if you can't find some good instruction, is to read some of the info in this forum on the subject.

First of all you don't have brakes. Start off using baby steps, meaning starting with a small amount of snow and slowly progressing into different conditions. . The first year I flew skiis I was sure it was a good way to wreck a perfectly good airplane. Didn't have any close calls but discovered some snow conditions were not favorable for skii operations with my set-up. Several times I carefully touched down and not liking the feeling added power and flew away. Felt like if I slowed down I would be stuck or worse. Wasn't real excited about trying it further.

The second year, we had a good amount of local snow and put them skiis on again. Had better experiences with some great time. In several feet of snow that is soft on top, it is hard to tell when you touch down or when you leave the snow on take-off. In deep snow, I don't commit myself to a full stop landing untill I have a good feel of how much floatation the snow conditions provide. If going into a small landing area I might checkout the snow conditions nearby, where I have room go get the feel and have plenty of room to abort the landing. Not having alot of experience, I don't land on lakes that snowmobiles are not operating., When in areas where there is alot of snowmobile activity, expect the snow to be rough giving your skiis and landing gear a real workout.

Be prepared to walk home from where ever you land.

Don

[Torch]

I don't find ski flying hard. If you are an experienced pilot transitioning to skiis should be quite easy. I do just fine on wheels, skis and floats. I just keep everything straight when landing and taking off. Sounds simple but I think you know what I mean. Keep er straight and you won't have any problems. Don't get any side drift going on while landing and taking off. I have done a little ski flying. Notice my Burl Rogers tailski. Very nice piece of equipment to have. A great, quality built tailski. My mains are Atlee-Dodge 2500's which are also built very well and perform fine for me.

http://home.gci.net/~ddwest/hayes5.jpg

[jetech]

Thanks for all the replies so far, all good advice.

I plan to start out slow and carefully. I hope to have the plane re-covered and painted soon so protecting my work from becoming a pile of broken sticks in a snowbank will be high priority.

I don't know anyone in the area that uses skis so I am on my own. Iowa isn't really a aviation orientated state. Most pilots around here just sit and wait for the runways to be plowed or for spring.

I sure appreciate the advice given, I have a few other pilots interested in flying with skis so this could be interesting :crazyeyes:

Gary

[Flying Miss Daisy]

I now have all the skis , Burls tailski,rigging for the L2500A's and a seaplane ticket. I had a friend take me up in his 12 last season and absolutely loved it. We just got our first snow ( wont last if it rains) and I did not know if it was better to practice on a first snow or waited til it crusted over with a base? I was not nervous about landing on China Lake as it felt just like floats that I was used to. I have a little apprehension of field landing just yet any ideas. Thanks John

[heege-brigmann]

Oh man, snow time is the best time in the year. 10 000% more landing possibilities. You can land almost everywhere, where you see the surface is flat and smooth. BUT, well I have 3000 Federals on my cub. They work very good but sometimes the snow is very powdery and soft. It is an interesting project to trample with snowshoes a 400feet long runway in more then hipdeep snow, because your bomber sits cowlingdeep in the snow :-?

[ground loop]

The problem I have with skiis is judging the potential landing are before I touch down. I get fooled way more on skiis than wheels of floats. It seems that I learn mostly by mistakes and those mistakes really suck! A good instructor can help teach you what to look for but there are so many adverse conditions that you can never be prepared for them all.

[fireball111]

i went from wheel to skis and had no problem at all that was in a challenger altralight. Never tried the piper on skies yet not enough snow
Il have to learn tail dragger and skies at same time .However did make
some mistakes on skies witch could of cost me.Took off on very small lake
in deep snow good thing there was creek at end of lake witch gave me a chance,you have to make a trail with plane first
and then take off in tracks to mutch drag if you don't and you'll be hopping
for a creek to

[Bill Rusk]

you might try going to www.treetopflyers.org

It is a website dedicated to skiplane flying. It is not a huge site but reading all the threads might offer some techniques.

Also FE Potts book "Guide to Bush Flying" has a couple of excellent chapters on ski flying.

And thats all there is folks.....not much info, written or otherwise, on the subject.

Good luck

Bill

[mit greb]

I find that the scariest part about flying on skis is, Taxing around on the ramp with other folks 100,000 dollar airplanes lining the taxi way ! :yikez:

[PA-11 HORSEMAN]

I throw a half dozen large garbage bags in the plane to put under the skis on those days when I get somewhere and it warms up enough to get the snow really sticky. They will wear out and come off about liftoff and you can come back later to pick up your litter. Saved me a long wait several times. I keep matches dry in an old pill bottle and some paper towel for fire starter and nature calls in a ziplock bag. Ski flying is a blast and you'll love it once you get the hang of it and learn to land with a little power control as you feel the snow conditions. Every landing/takeoff is a whole new experience.

[cubflier]

Jetech

Skiing is great fun and long as you think things trough, practice and gain experience incrementally you will be having a blast in no time.

Here's a few things to think about on skis.

1. All planes perform different on skis. A light 160 hp supercub on landes 2500 is way different that an M-7 Maule on Fluidine 3000 wheel skis.

2. Skis are hard on gear. Strong gear is a good thing.

3. When flying skis you must "THINK SNOW" just like an Alpine, Cross Country, or Back Country Skier would. Otherwise you must give your best guess on the snow conditions by thinking of all the factors such as temperature, winds, depth and type of previous snow, etc. The more you develop this type of mind set the better you will at anticipating snow conditions.

4. Deep heavy snow gives gobs of resistance and hard packed ice like snow can make you slide to heck and back.

5. You have no breaks! Don't forget that a mag switch will kill an engine faster than the mixture knob. You will taxi slower on ice on one mag and carb heat on.

6. Don't mix ice landing and strong winds. The wind may just have it's way with you.

7. Flat light makes the old ground hard to judge so know your surface in flat light. Glassy water technique is good for flat light.

8. Snowmachine helmets are not prop resistant.

9. He who lands in deep powder and just stops will learn to use a shovel. Use multiple drag passes straight in or drive a race track pattern several times then stop on your own tracks.

10. He who lands in steep snow at extreme altitude with wimpy engine now has a snowmachine with wings. That's it!

11. Beware of snow snakes. They hide beneath the surface in the form of rocks, bent over trees, or other debris designed to separate skis/gearleg from aircraft.

12. Glacier landings in flat light on a cloudy day will make you change your user ID to something like SNOWDART, or ICESCREW, cause that is exactly what you will become.

13. If you see someone drop bust through thin ice in the spring, don't land next to them to see if you can help. Seen three planes go in that way. It was like one of those mice sticky traps. Mind you at no time were pilots in danger. Other folks just kept landing to see if they could help and the brake through also.

14. When landing on frozen lakes or streams lay a set of tracks and see if they fill with water before you commit to a landing in overflow. If you screw up and land in serious overflow remember that the slush spray is probably sticking to your tail.

15. The snow you land in today will be differnt snow tomorrow.


As previous posters have stated there is plenty to think about but all in all is just simple fun that will grow with your experience.

Jerry

[superchamp]

Good advice - my one tip would be to taxi back around into your landing tracks before shutting down. Then you are positioned and ready to go when you jump back in. Granted - if there is a lot of wind you will probably be taking off in the other direction, but at least you can taxi back down the tracks where you landed and get it turned down at your point of touchdown to go into the wind. I also don't hesitate on a downwind takeoff on my landing tracks it the wind ain't too strong and I got some room. At least I know where I already made those tracks is safe. Don't stop that bird until a)you are back on your tracks from landing or b) it is stuck and stops itself. And watch out for small wind protected bays - I landed into one last year and the snow was more than waist deep at the back - while out where I touched down is was ankle deep. Several hours and several gallons of sweat later I was back out where I should have parked it the first time.

[behindpropellers]

Jetech



7. Flat light makes the old ground hard to judge so know your surface in flat like. Glassy water technique is good for flat light.

Jerry

Another alternative to the glassy water approach is to throw somthing out of the plane onto the ice. Land on or next to the item you threw out of the plane.

I personally like an orange construction cone if the snow is flat....

Tim

[180Marty]

Brian Schanche at www.adventureseaplanes.com has a PA 12 on ski's that he gives instruction in. He is located in Minneapolis.
Marty

[mvivion]

cubflier wrote:
Jetech



7. Flat light makes the old ground hard to judge so know your surface in flat like. Glassy water technique is good for flat light.

Jerry


Another alternative to the glassy water approach is to throw somthing out of the plane onto the ice. Land on or next to the item you threw out of the plane.

I personally like an orange construction cone if the snow is flat....


Boy, be REALLY respectful of flat light. I've taken gear off with stuff I didn't/couldn't see in flat light, as in rough snow. DON'T use a glassy water technique to land in flat light unless:

a) You are really positively certain that what you are landing on is safe, or

b) Your other alternative is to run out of gas and land in trees, that you can't see either cause its dark.

In most instances of recreational flying, flat light landings are just a pretty bad idea. After a lot of years of ski flying, I am still occasionally amazed at what I DIDN'T see prior to landing somewhere.

MTV

[ground loop]

mvivion,
The old orange construction cone in the back seat is finally useful for something :lol: . Do you really carry one of those around?

[StewartB]

The scariest landing I ever did was on Figure Eight Lake on a gray day. I'd been there a couple of days before and all was great. When I went back, I was complacent. Anxious to go fishing with some friends. I never anticipated the wind had blown from the west leaving a series of concrete-like drifts that looked like 12-18" waves with vertical faces. Of course, I never saw them as I landed to the west. Anybody that says Cessna 180 gear isn't tough wasn't there to witness that spectacle. To this day I can't believe that airplane stayed together. And that was followed by a very long, hard taxi to find a smooth surface.

Dumb. There is no other explanation. An orange cone wouldn't have
helped, either. Never again. Well, not on purpose.

SB

[cubflier]

The thing I like about this forum is the solid backup you get when you fall short of making a point.

MTV did a good job of furthering my point of "know your surface".

You see I have this problem with my employment. I own a commercial greenhouse. I'm not complaining but the only time I have to ski fly is November to January so I get plenty of flat light to fly in / be cautious of.

As he emphasized - you can't see the ground or it's condition so it is a must that you know the ground / snow conditions prior to landing. Many a gear has been waisted by those that don't.

The thing that I look forward to is this is our last year in business and from here out I will know what it is like to fly in some of the more spring like conditions when you guy's buzz my greenhouse just to see me run out in the parking lot bursting with envy!!

Jerry

[behindpropellers]

mvivion,
The old orange construction cone in the back seat is finally useful for something :lol: . Do you really carry one of those around?

So what is the problem with putting somthing on the ice to give some perspective?

And no, I do not carry an orange cone around. We happened to have one on the lake once from the ice bikes. We were flying after fresh snow with a cloudy day (yes we knew the surface conditions). Great for a reference point. Thats just my novice advice.


I suppose you have a better idea. What is it?

Tim

[mvivion]

Tim,

There are two problems in flat light:

1) It's really hard to see the surface. A glassy water technique (which I think is functional, but pretty risky, depending) may work there, and certainly having some reference on the ice to give definition is WAY better. Many of us for years have "planted" small spruce branches to mark our snow runways on lakes, etc early in the season. Works great.

2) The second problem, though, is hitting something that's covered with snow that you simply can't see because of flat light. One example is the really rough snow noted earlier. Another is landing practically on top of a 5 foot high beaver house (I've been there) because after about six passes, I still hadn't seen the beaver house. Now, that was extreme conditions, but.....

So, my point was that, yes, if you know without doubt that your landing area is 1) SMOOTH, 2) FLAT, and 3) WITHOUT OBSTRUCTIONS, throwing a traffic cone, a spruce branch, or something else out to give you a touchdown reference, is not a bad idea. A better idea would have been to mark out a landing strip when you verified 1, 2 and 3 above.

But, throwing out a traffic cone won't help you see the obstacles like a beaver house that can be virtually invisible in flat light.

So, don't fool yourself that you're doing the whole job throwing out a reference.

MTV

[behindpropellers]

So, my point was that, yes, if you know without doubt that your landing area is 1) SMOOTH, 2) FLAT, and 3) WITHOUT OBSTRUCTIONS, throwing a traffic cone, a spruce branch, or something else out to give you a touchdown reference, is not a bad idea.

MTV

Mike-

I apprecatiate you elaborating on the situation but what I described was just what you stated, smooth, flat, no obstructions. I threw out the varibles of beaver dams, igloos, snowmen, and trees for the sake of the original post where we were talking basics. Although they are all noteable problems you may run into, the biggest one being the flat light and loss of depth perception. By giving some point of reference I was trying to mitigate the hazard of the flat light and depth perception. Wether there is a beaver house where you are landing makes no difference when you fly it into the ground anyway.

Tim

[high time cub]

One more: The weight of lake ice will often force water up along the shore line. Land OK in the center, taxi to the shore for take off and your in the slush! Here's another one I learned from an old ski pilot 35 years ago, carry strips of tar paper (roofing felt) to start a fire. Burns in the wind and on snow. Save the paper towels to clean the windscreen.

[fireball111]

MY FRIEND WHEN PARKING PLANE PUTS DIESEL FUEL ON TO 2 CARPETS FOR SKIES TO REST ON. FUEL GOES INTO TEFLONS AND DOESN'T
STICK TO SNOW .HES BEEN FYING FOR
30 YEARS SO I WILL LISEN TO HIM AND IT ASLOW MAKES SENSE
DIESEL FUEL AND WATER WONT STAY TOGETHER THEY ALWAYS
SEPARATE.OF COURSE YOUR SKIS HAVE TO BE LINED WITH TEFLONS
FOR THIS TO WORK

[N3243A]

I threw out the varibles of beaver dams, igloos, snowmen, and trees for the sake of the original post where we were talking basics. Although they are all noteable problems you may run into, the biggest one being the flat light and loss of depth perception. By giving some point of reference I was trying to mitigate the hazard of the flat light and depth perception. Wether there is a beaver house where you are landing makes no difference when you fly it into the ground anyway.

Tim

How can you throw out these variables when they are present every time you land somplace new. MTV's point is very valid in that you are basically rolling the dice when you land in really flat light. The coat/traffic cone etc. you threw out for a bit of depth perception is doing you a disservice when you whack into a 5 foot high beaver house when flaring for your "glassy water landing". This is no joke when it very nearly happened to a good friend of mine on Sucker Lake. He landed in flat light to go ice fishing one weekend and made it in OK. Even caught a few fish. Next weekend he went back to fish some more but the skies were clear and he could see. When he saw his previous tracks about 30 feet from a beaver house that he never saw the week before he got religion real quick. Landing in truly flat light in a new place (or an old place a week later) is rolling the dice with very little payoff for the risk of your airframe. SB's Figure 8 Lake story illustrates this very well too. If Sandra Bullock and Jessica Simpson were on a nice remote lake camp grilling T-bones in loungerie and waving you in on a flat light day one might be tempted to land and join them but otherwise I'll pass. :lol:

Bruce

[mvivion]

Bruce,

What lake was that???? I missed em again?

Dang!! :boohoo

MTV

[N3243A]

Sorry Mike,

If I told you then everyone will be landing there to join them!! Right now it's just me and Jessica now that she is single. Even when my plane is up to its lift struts in overflow, it's worth it :-?

[landesskis]

The only thing I can add, the force on the landing gear and the airframe is increased 50% on straight skis (because the tire absorbs so much), so this means that on top of having a big torque wrench on the end of the landing gear from the skis, you have lot of load on the airframe. Definintly have the heavy duty gear (and inspect it periodically).

[T.J.]

Yep, and replace all the gear bolts every year. They take a beating.

[Randy]

Just an idea I had about marking your landing spot in flat light conditions.
I used to drop a lot of "Automatic Flagman" markers in a previous life.
They are aprox 4.5X6" square cardboard with a couple of 6' lengths of industrial strength tissue paper glued on them.

They come in various lengths, colors (white, pink, black and red checkerboard, ect..its been quite a while since I have used any).

When hand deployed...they fall and spread out...and are visible for quite a ways.

If the wind is blowing...the tissue streamers will drift downwind and serve as a wind indicator.

A dozen of them wouldn't weigh only a few ounces.

Maybe S2D knows where to get them...although GPS technology is making them obsolete.

Here is a link I found....

http://www.johnstonaircraft.com/parts.htm

Randy

[Chuck E.]

One of the most troublesome problems you can run into is stopping after landing on snow with slush under the snow cover.

Even worse is taxiing on to it after landing.

I once dropped the left gear into slush with a DC3 on wheel skis and it took us three days to get the damn thing back on solid snow.

I always touch down and then apply power and do a high speed run over the snow then lift off and fly over the tracks and see if there is any slush in the tracks when landing where slush could be expected.

[aktango58]

One more: The weight of lake ice will often force water up along the shore line. Land OK in the center, taxi to the shore for take off and your in the slush!


Um, TJ, Crash, Tourch.... Is this correct what High Time says?

Seems to me that the ice in the center collects the water, and the edges are usually drier.

[mvivion]

aktango,

Overflow is where you find it. I agree that, for the most part in this country, the worst overflow is generally found in the middle of lakes and certainly rivers, due to the water level dropping a bit after freeze up, and the ice therefore "slumping" in the middle of the waterbody. This and other forces can crack the ice, and water will flow out on top of the ice (hence the term overflow).

On the other hand, I've seen really bad overflow (actually I've waded in really bad overflow) along a lake shore where there was a hillside above the lake, and spring water was flowing down the hill, and winding up on the shoreline. In that case, the middle of the lake was probably okay, but I didn't check--too busy digging out.

I've also seen water come up onto the ice around the perimeter of lakes and flow out from the edges of the ice.

As I said, overflow is where you find it.

If there is ANY slight chance of overflow, drag the skis, drag em again pretty hard, as in VERY slow, then go away for a bit, and come back to see if the tracks turned dark. Sometimes it takes a while for the water to show.

I've also been fooled even using this technique, with a crust down a ways, which held the plane up out of the overflow on the run, but when I stopped, splash!

If you think there is any overflow at all, DO NOT try to turn, if there is any way to avoid it. If you do, turn away from shore if at all possible. Better to be pointed the right way when you get stuck.

MTV

[behindpropellers]

When I was a kid we used to build giant snow forts on the lake in the winter. The first day they were great.

The next day we would always find our snow forts flooded. I never understood then :o .


The main cause of overflow is the weight of the snow pushing the ice down. Kinda like an icecube in a glass of water, if you push it down, the water goes on top.

Go out sometime when there is 2" of black ice, put a cinder block on the ice. The next day the cinder block will be surrounded by water.

On the lake we are on we get a lot of overflow simply because the ice never gets very thick around here.

If the ice is thin it will "sink" and cause overflow. Usually the lakes around here freeze in the middle last, therefore probably get more overflow in the middle.

On the opposite (leeward) side of the lake there is always overflow. This is where the wind does not take the snow away, the ice sinks.....overflow.

Probably the best way to stay out of overflow is to land where there is not much snow..... maybe where the wind has taken away most of the snow. This is harder on the plane though.

I can't imagine getting stuck with a plane in this stuff, the snowmobile is hard enough to get out!


MTV-

It probably was not spring water you were stuck in, it was just the fact that the ice had a lot of snow behind the ridge where the wind and sunlight could not get to it and it got deep and heavy. Was there snow when you got stuck?

Tim

p.s. One of the biggest problems with overflow is the insulating effect it has. If there is a hard snow with 6-8" of ice and you get a lot of snow, and then overflow followed by a deep freeze the overflow will freeze. This leaves a layer of snow, then the frozen overflow, a layer of water, and then the original ice. This sandwich will have an insulating effect.

I fell through once (close to shore) . I was actually standing on the original ice, and we originally had 5" of ice. Apprently the flow of the overflow between the layers made the original ice thinner (it was now about 2") .

[mvivion]

Behind,

Sorry, this was 60 miles north of the Arctic Circle, in February. Sunlight has precisely zero effect on lakes at that latitude at that time of year.

We have springs that flow all winter, and often this water will flow under the insulating layer of snow, and find a low spot--a lake.

There is also aufice, and other arctic delights, but believe me, there are LOTS of ways to get water flowing out over ice, and it doesn't necessarily take a lot of snow to weigh down the ice, though it sure helps in the process.

The other key function of snow load in the creation and perpetuation of overflow is the snow acts as an insulator, to keep the free water from freezing. We commonly have overflow after days of -40 or colder temps. Snow is a great insulator.

Remember that as you are preparing your shelter for the night after having got stuck in overflow.

Overflow is where you find it. At least in this country.

MTV

[T.J.]

delete

[fireball111]

back in the day i heard of a friend having to put plane up on branches
and creating some kind of sling shot to get out off slush ,from what i heard
he was tying a rope a the tail witch could be cut by the pilot with a axe or
knife putting engine at full power [wood frame65 hp]making tracks with snow shoes
in front and hope she doesn't get stuck again .never experienced it and hope i don't have to, seems like a good plan i know my friend had to execute it
he was stuck for 2 days ,he must have been prepared for such a scenario
all i know is i was young and me ears were wide open.not churr on how
the sling shot was made he did explain but i don't remember

[landesskis]

[quote="jetech"]I am looking for real world advice on flying with skis from people that actually know how.

Make sure that your bottom of the skis are clean and do not have ice sticking to the bottom. A spray of silicon on the bottom is a good thing, this at leasts you get home.

Gary

[Dave Calkins]

Well, no one has really told Jetech much about how to rig his skis beyond "hey look at the AC43.13"

Good advice!

However, when fabricating the aft check cable (the one that resists the spring or bungee and sets the allowable "nose-up" of the ski) The allowable limits in the AC43.13 are WAY WAY WAY too much. What you want is about 1.5 degrees of ski-tip "up" relative to the chordline of the wing.

If you put in like 5 degrees of ski-tip up, you will have gained nothing in ski performance over a 1.5 degree setting and will have slowed the a/c by A LOT.

As far as operations in flat light, spruce bows, or pieces of such, tossed out of the airplane make nice terrain markers, though they're heavy to haul around. Gunny sacks are another option. Black plastic trash bags are another, not so ecological option.

I sure wish SteveJ. had a way to make photo insertion a drag and drop operation, I have so many incredible ski-flying shots I'd love to share.

[Dave Calkins]

Okay, a couple hours with Lawn Dart's picture-posting tutorials and here we go. You really ought to check out the tutorials. WOW! thanks Cavy (Lawn Dart).

Here's just one nice shot, you can click it, and should, to enlargen it


http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/thumbs/april2-05-0004.JPG (http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/april2-05-0004.JPG)

[Dave Calkins]

Clicking on this one will link you to a larger, more detailed version of the one the above thumb links to. Once the large photo comes up, you'll need to click in thelower right hand corner to make it go full-page and beyond..

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/thumbs/april2-05-0004.JPG (http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/april2-05-0004.JPG)

...thanks for bearing with my picture-posting practise. I love this shot. Hard to find better fun than this kind of flying!!

[ground loop]

Dave,

Just a wild guess, but is that picture on the hills south of Beluga Lake?

[Dave Calkins]

No, this is near Nellie Juan Lake. The "rolling hills" is actually galcial morraine covered with like 6 feet of snow. There are multiple LZ's in that area where a guy can get skiers on top of 4000 feet of vertical run, and pick them up at the bottom for another go. On a sunny day, there is no other place in the world I'd rather be than somewhere like this!

[cubflier]

Dave - I have determined that you need one more friend and that friend would be me! I've been looking for a drop off high and pick up low ski spot around the Palmer/Knik/Prince William Sound area and have yet to find an area that I can land at drop off and pick up altitude that has some real down hill ski challenge to it. There are plenty of drop you off high and spots or pick you up low but nothing with both. Any in this area that has both drop off and pick up strips has beginner grades to ski.

Jerry

[Dave Calkins]

Jerry, we'll have to get together.

[Dave Calkins]

Ground Loop. This is a bit nearer to Beluga Lake, kindof. Recognize it?

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/thumbs/PICT0104.JPG (http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/medium/PICT0104.JPG)

click thumb to enlarge

[jetech]

What do you guys do for tie-downs when you park for extended times off airport?

This is a very informative thread and I have learned quite a bit about ski flying that I did not know or even thought about.

I am particularly grateful for the rigging information since I plan to build my own skis and the only info that I have is the AC 43.13.

Does anyone have experience building skis? So far the plan is fiberglass with a replaceable UHMW bottom and some type of skeg. I am also looking at laminated wood with a plastic bottom and aluminum with plastic. Any advice in this area would be greatly appreciated.

[cubflier]

What do you guys do for tie-downs when you park for extended times off airport?


If you are on a lake you can auger a hole like you are ice fishing tie a rope to a 2' or so piece of 2x4 and shove it down the whole so that it turns and acts as a toggle. The ice will freeze over the hole and your plane will be secure. I've heard that other people chainsaw a slot in the ice to do in effect the same thing. If you are on solid ground I'm usually looking for small spruce/tree's to tie to or have even just used my snow machine on one side and a small tree on the other. If you are on a swamp like we have here in Alaska, Duck Bills drive in amazingly well since the frozen layer on top is normally not too thick.

Jerry

[coldNF]

Most of the time you do not need to tie them down in the winter because it is no fun to winter camp or do anything if is a windy spot. If you are in the trees or in a protected spot, the snow is deep and tie down is not needed. A ski plane in deep snow is not going anywhere. I carry ice screws (the ones that ice climbers use) to tie down in ice.

Steven

[Dave Calkins]

On ice, mountaineering ice screws are a good and simple method. Each takes about 20 seconds to insert. For each tiedown point I use 2 opposing screws and tie a line between them that the airplane gets tied to. So......... 2 screws for LH wing, 2 for the RH wing, and 2 for the tail makes 6 screws total. Quick, easy, secure.

For a season-long tiedown on a lake, 2x4's toggled through a hole in the ice is standard ops. around here. Note that ice grows from the top-down and melts from the top down, thus....your 2x4 will arise from the ice in the spring before the lake is thawed. Think about this for a second, you'll understand. You gotta keep your eye on it come spring or you won't actually be tied to much.

When in deep snow with no trees, etc. to tie to, I bury a "deadman". 12"x12" squares of 1/2" plywood with a hole in the middle and a rope thru the hole and knotted. Cheap, simple, quick. You have a shovel with you, right?

I've also buried pieces of trees, etc. Lately I've been thinking of using some 2"x2" for deadman, maybe 2 feet long. They would pack away a little tighter than the plywood.

The nice thing about screws and deadmen is that they are retrievable. If your camp is someplace else the next night, this is an important thing so you don't have to carry extras.

Jerry, I never thought of a duckbill for frozen swamp. Good idea, but I've priced duckbills in the last couple of years and someone at the duckbill factory is making decent coin! Good idea, though.

[Dave Calkins]

Jetech, you've asked a super-broad question with the design of skis.

Fiberglass, wood, aluminum? Pick one and move forward!

On the other hand, I'd suggest that you buy some used ones.

If you really gotta build your own, I'd suggest a laminated marine plywood deck and a tubular steel weldment pedestal. This is the easiest to design and build without reinventing the "ski".

If you can look around at enough photos, are competent at mixing epoxy for lamination, and have some fabbing and welding skills, you'll do okay with the TLAR method (That Looks About Right).

Good Luck, sounds fun, if you know what you're getting yourself into.

DAVE

[WIflier]

For everyone flying skis or who wants to fly them make sure your insurance covers you on skis. The only insurance company that I found with coverage on skis has been Avemco. If there are other companies offering coverage please post.

Si

[bushmaster]

Falcon

[Broknbone]

Here's a tip I learned this weekend. Carry a packable shovel. But make sure the shovel is bigger in diameter than your ice auger or your 4 year old son will drop the shovel through hole.

[Dave Calkins]

KIds!!! #@$^@#$^%#@$%

You've got me laughing Broknbone!

[mvivion]

Dave,

Great advice on the degree of nose up on skis. I too have never liked the real nose up on skis, and we've always rigged them at about 1 to 2 degrees max.

MTV

[high time cub]

Tim,

But, throwing out a traffic cone won't help you see the obstacles like a beaver house that can be virtually invisible in flat light.

MTV

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/47469

[haphogan]

I have a lot of time on skis, wheel skies, strait skis, Cubs, Aeroncas, 180, 185. conditions continue to change and are different in every area.

I find I continue to learn new things. when you stop learning is when you can get into trouble. Jerry has some excellent points.

When landing on a slight side hill in he Yukon north east of Eagle Alaska -48 deg F. water was flowing under the snow. When Strikeing this

[dalec]

On ice, mountaineering ice screws are a good and simple method. Each takes about 20 seconds to insert. For each tiedown point I use 2 opposing screws and tie a line between them that the airplane gets tied to. So......... 2 screws for LH wing, 2 for the RH wing, and 2 for the tail makes 6 screws total. Quick, easy, secure.



Dave

I bought a really cool little gadget at REI that aligns hole for ice screws so that I can slip a piece of webbing or rope through, don't have to carry or purchase near as many ice screws that way ;-)

[haphogan]

Ski flying is always a learning experience. I see my comment when landing north east of Eagle Alaska on a slight side hill at -48 deg F. flowing water under the snow surface was cut short. The result was the skies iced up and it took 5 hrs to remove the ice. Taking off after dark to return to camp.

possibly a good ski drag would have prevented this problem

[haphogan]

the ice screws sound like an excellent idea. the little gadget for aligning the hole sounds good as well. My son lands on the ice and snow from the south pole to the north pole with twin otters and turbine powered DC3s.

He informed me they use many different methods as well as ice screws and some times with the winds they require several screws and Herc Straps.

I told him about the gadget for aligning holes and ha asked for some information on it. I would appreciate the information for him.

[dalec]

the ice screws sound like an excellent idea. the little gadget for aligning the hole sounds good as well. My son lands on the ice and snow from the south pole to the north pole with twin otters and turbine powered DC3s.

He informed me they use many different methods as well as ice screws and some times with the winds they require several screws and Herc Straps.

I told him about the gadget for aligning holes and ha asked for some information on it. I would appreciate the information for him.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/shop/climb/ice-protection/first-shot-ice-screw-guide

[haphogan]

Ski flying can get you into some of the most exotic places in the world, It is very rewarding.

[aktango58]

Ski flying can get you into some of the most exotic places in the world, It is very rewarding.

for longer than desired/anticipated at times...

[haphogan]

you got that right

[haphogan]

thanks for the link

[Dave Calkins]

Got it Dale. Thanks. D

[schnell49]

V-threads are stronger than ice screws FYI and easy to make--one could take 3 ice screws in the plane and then if needed make as many v-threads as you want (as long as you got some cord to make them and a "coat hangar" type tool--or in case your buddy forgot his tie downs.....) just another idea that doesn't require really any money, bulk, weight etc....and length of screw I believe into straight ice of a lake really isn't going to matter--all the screws from black diamond have the same number of threads on them and thats where the friction occurs--so a 13cm or 22cm screw in solid ice is really the same i.e the longer unthreaded shaft is gaining you nothing...
if conditions are crappy then that's where the length comes in (so you can get deeper in the crap in hopes of solid placement)

remember when setting ice screws to "chip" away at the top surface a few inches to get rid of the crappy ice so you get a solid placement

after placing and if you plan on using them for any amount of time ensure you cover/pack with snow on top so the conduction doesn't rot the ice away from the top down because it will

(screws are what i use....FWIW)

here's an example of a v-thread
http://neice.com/2009/09/how-to-make-a-v-tread/

and if you want to geek out;
http://www.jjgeng.com/html/body_ice_screw.html

Cheers

[Dave Calkins]

....love the second link B. D

[AKClimber]

Here is a simple v-thread made from a coat hangar that I've used for years:
http://cascadeclimbers.com/ice/gear/ice-vthread
Works *almost* as good as the BD one - it helps having the stiffness to push the cord into the hole.
Make sure to get the long ice screws - 22cm and use 7mm cord.
Use double fishermen's knot to tie the cord off after threading through the hole.
One little tip that helps is that it is easier to line up the second hole to meet the end of the first one (deep inside the ice) if you make it from the dominant eye side.
The anchor is only as strong as the ice - clear any cracked, soft, aerated ice out of the way first.
Also cover the anchor with snow/ice shavings to make it last longer especially if it gets sunny.

[dalec]

Here is a simple v-thread made from a coat hangar that I've used for years:
http://cascadeclimbers.com/ice/gear/ice-vthread
Works *almost* as good as the BD one - it helps having the stiffness to push the cord into the hole.
Make sure to get the long ice screws - 22cm and use 7mm cord.

Use double fishermen's knot to tie the cord off after threading through the hole.
One little tip that helps is that it is easier to line up the second hole to meet the end of the first one (deep inside the ice) if you make it from the dominant eye side.
The anchor is only as strong as the ice - clear any cracked, soft, aerated ice out of the way first.
Also cover the anchor with snow/ice shavings to make it last longer especially if it gets sunny.


I just carry 6' of 1" webbing, it doesn't weigh anything, takes up almost no space, thread it through the hole, tie it off, then tie my tiedown rope to it, it is a lot cheaper than cutting rope.

The other thing I have for insurance is a static line along with a couple of pulleys, haven't had to use them yet but suspect it might come in handy dealing with a plane stuck in the overflow

[AKClimber]

I've never tried threading 1" webbing through a v-thread hole, but imagine it would be a bit harder than the 7mm cord.
The stiff v-thread hooker would be the key here.
+1 on the z-pulley setup, and here is where the 7mm cord works better for making autoblocking knots (prussics) than the webbing. I also found that when there is any significant weight 3:1 just won't cut it, so at least 3 pulleys are necessary for 5:1 ot 6:1.

[narrow deck]

Hey Dave,

Nellie Juan spring skiing! I would love to join you and Jerry if you going this spring.
I have 160 Cub with 2500 hydraulics.
I'll call Jerry.
I would like to post some of my ski pics if I knew how to do it on this site. Still learning.:lol:
Thanks

[Dave Calkins]

Hi Mike. This weekend weather looks nice.

..not commital yet, though, as I may be taking delivery of a set of wings for my 180.. not sure if it will happen, or what day.....

Get ahold of Jerry. He and others are surely looking at the zones! :)

[courierguy]

I had planned to add to my usual ski flying equpment this winter a end less rope type comalong http://torcarr.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14&products_id=310&zenid=gvta6m4o9nu67rfjukgdsm3olsvp2gi8 but never got around to it yet due to the lousy snow year. I can use this year round for general pulling, and it might come in handy when I end up in the quakies again (or how I learned about cross wind up hill landings). The dent in my spinner is always a conversation starter, especially when I point out the prop was undamaged. The best thing about having no brakes, is when you do again come spring, you'll never take them for granted again!