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Derek Landstrom
09-27-2005, 09:49 PM
Does anyone know of anyone who has used Taylorcraft wings on a Cub. I hear the NACA 23012 airfoil has worked well on Cubs. How big of a deal would this be on an experimental Cub Project. I think I would like to try it, but don't want to totally reinvent the wheel. Any information on this that I could get would be very useful. THANKS

Bugs66
09-27-2005, 09:57 PM
You wouldn't be reinventing the wheel at all. It's being done.

See http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=3669&cat=512

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/data/512/medium/Taylor_Cub.jpg

Maybe Kase could give some more info on the photo. D&E is selling Taylorcraft wings to experimental Cub builders. I personally don't know of them though. The cruise performance is supposed to be improved quite a bit.

Bugs66
09-27-2005, 10:02 PM
Another photo of same bird. Check out those narly flaps.

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/data/512/medium/Taylor_Cub_landing.jpg

Steve Pierce
09-27-2005, 10:30 PM
Aerobatic guys have done it for years. I can't remember if it was Jim Swick or Pappy Spinks.

kase
09-27-2005, 11:21 PM
Homemade PA18 fuselage with Taylorcraft wings and tail feathers. Front spar fitting is a little higher to get the right AOI for the T-craft wing. Terry has built 2 of them. I think the wings are off a L2 modified for a Husky type flap.

http://supercub.org/albums/supercubs/ctp.sized.jpg

Bugs66
09-28-2005, 02:28 AM
Homemade PA18 fuselage with Taylorcraft wings and tail feathers. Front spar fitting is a little higher to get the right AOI for the T-craft wing. Terry has built 2 of them. I think the wings are off a L2 modified for a Husky type flap.

Great photo! Are you sure they are off an L2? I am just curious if one of those might be a D&E wing. If you happen to find out let us know. I'm still trying to find somebody that is flying a D&E wing.

Tim
09-28-2005, 08:07 AM
Buggs, theres a guy on this site with a 2+2 with D+E wings. I flew it once for a few minutes, but didn't do to much with it. I'll email him and tell him to respond. His has a 180hp Lyc. in it.

Tim

jgerard
09-28-2005, 10:05 AM
L2 wings have wood ribs.

Jason
N43643

Cubus Maximus
09-28-2005, 10:26 AM
Here's another one:

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=815&cat=512

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=814&cat=512

Bugs66
09-28-2005, 10:55 AM
Here's another one:

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=815&cat=512

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=814&cat=512

D&E or something else?

bob turner
09-28-2005, 12:45 PM
I gotta mark this thread. I thought it was my imagination when I saw an L-4 fuselage with Taylorcraft wings in ACY, 1961. They have to be faster! Cessna flaps would, in my opinion, be better!

Cubus Maximus
09-28-2005, 01:22 PM
Couldn't tell ya' Bugs. I noticed it at the ski-plane jamboree in Aitkin, MN. I approached with the video camera and the guys surrounding it all scattered like particularly skittish chickens - so I have no idea if they are D&E wings or not. Just looked an awful lot like T-Cart wings.

Brad

Steve's Aircraft (Brian)
09-28-2005, 01:44 PM
Local guy here has a stretched pacer with D&E Taylorcraft ribbed wings. He modified the Leading edge slightly and installed a set of flaps and tracks from a C-170/172. Not flying yet, but will be real interesting to see. He is going to power it with a V0-360 180 HP converted to Horizontal operation and a constant speed Hartzell.

kase
09-28-2005, 01:53 PM
There wood spar on both aircraft.

6 short
09-28-2005, 05:16 PM
Kase wrote:

Front spar fitting is a little higher to get the right AOI for the T-craft wing.

Kase,

Thinking back to some of the discussion regarding the performance differences between the PA 12 and the PA 18, one of the design differences between the two is the AOI.

My question is do you know if the AOI for the 23012 airfoil was increased because the goal is to increased (shorter) take off performance? Do you know if anyone has tried a different angle and if so what was the goal and what were the results?

Thanks,
Pat

kase
09-28-2005, 08:19 PM
AOI was increased so it would fly like a 18. Higher spar attach fitting on one plane, relocated the butt hinge on the other one. Must work good because hes beat every PA11 and 18 around here in take off contest using a 135 Lyc. When we fly together im 2500 to go 95 mph and hes 2100 to go 95 with a homemade wood prop.

Derek Landstrom
09-28-2005, 09:31 PM
I think Taylorcrafts use an incidence angle of 2-1/2 degrees with the a/c level based on the rigging infofmation I found in a T'craft service manual and a plot of a NACA 23012 airfoil, but I'm not yet 100% certain of this. This does make sense, however, since this would provide a lift coefficient of 0.40. As the AOI (or AOA) increases the lift coefficient also increases. for example, an AOA of 3 degrees gives a lift coefficient of 0.45, AOA of 4 deg. gives a lift coeff. of .55. This continues almost linear until the max lift coefficient is exceeded and the wing stalls. If the wing AOI is 2-1/2 degrees with the a/c in level flight at 4,000' msl at 100 mph (147 ft./sec.) with 180 sq. ft. of wing area the wing would produce about 1,643 pounds of lift. This amount of lift for a typ. T'craft cruise speed might be a little high, so the AOI might be a little lower - I don't know - yet.

The interesting thing is that I have compared the T'craft 23012 airfoil to the NACA 4412 airfoil used on Champs (gotta be simmilar to the Cubs airfoil) and did not see any lift or drag benefits going to the 23012 airfoil. Another interesting thing is that clipping the wings does not decrease the the amout of wing drag much at all. What you loose in parasite drag you gain in increased induced drag since the wing loading increases.

The 23012 airfoil does have two benifits over the 4412 as I see it. First, the almost symetrical airfoil of the 23012 would perform much better in sustained inverted flight - not something I'm looking for, but it would be a benefit. I think the real benefit of the 23012 is in it's reduced nose down pitching moment. The less of a pitching moment the the wing generates the less of a down force the tail must make (which the wings see as add'l weight and increased wing loading = yet more induced drag). Also, the more the tail must push down the more trim drag produced by the horizontal stab - more drag again. I think this is why the T'craft is faster than the Champs and Cus on the same HP.

The thing that has got me thinking now is the fact that a T'craft is a side by side seat aircraft which allows a designer to specify a narrower C.G. range and still have a practical flying airplane. With a tandem arrangment it is much easier to get into an aft. C.G. loading. I gotta be careful with this one. This in its self may help an airframe fly faster on an equivlent HP - food for yet more thought.

I'm not an Aeronautical Engineer. I'm just trying to justify the use of the 23012 airfoil and short wing on an experimental and want to know why it seems to work so well on the T'craft and other airframes. I appreciate all the responses to my post. Just when I'm about to give up on the T'craft airfoil, I see the stuff you guys posted and it seems worth looking into further.

Thanks Again, Derek

jgerard
09-28-2005, 11:21 PM
Go fly a clip wing Tcraft and then go fly a Citabria. The Tcraft seems to get the thumbs up from most pilots as the better aircraft. Just put the Tcraft wings on and have fun!!

Jason
N43643

d.grimm
09-29-2005, 07:52 AM
A guy at the local strip built up L-2 clipped wings and put them on a Vagabond. Trailing edge didn't match fuselage line but other than that it was a good flying airplane. Angle of incidence wasn't any more than eyeball, but not exactly perfect. In my experience I always thought the Cub with 65 hp got off the ground quicker than the 65 hp T-Craft, Luscombe, or Champ.

Bill Cangero
09-29-2005, 05:08 PM
So who has used a PA 18 wing on a Citabria? My AA Citabria sure dosen't behave like a Super Cub -- wish it did when I am trying out some small grass fields.

What would be the best way to go about this?

Weld on new spar fittings spaced 31 inches and build up a Smith wing.

Or maybe building a Cub wing with the 30 inch spacing to match the existing Citabria fittings. :o

bob turner
09-29-2005, 06:21 PM
Sell the Citabria and get a Cub.

I am in love with the Decathlon, but the Cub is still really more fun, at least when not inverted. The Dec has a symmetric wing, and I believe it is faster than the 7KCAB, which is the same everything except wing - at least for the smaller engined Dec. Maybe a symmetrical wing is less drag at cruise speed?

The Cub I saw with Taylorcraft wings had notches on the trailing edge, kind of like the Luscombe.

Derek Landstrom
09-29-2005, 09:05 PM
I talked to Terry Fatzinger today (thanks for the number Kase). I think some or all of the a/c posted under this thread were ones he did. He was a very knowledgeable person, and told me some things that made sense. For example, he uses a smaller empennage like the Taylorcraft - makes sense the tail should have to produce less down force - less trim drag. Also, said w/o flaps the AOA is very high and you can't see in front of you - makes sense - symmetrical type airfoils need a higher AOA to produce the equivalent lift. the flaps according to Terry were a must, and I can see why they would help a lot. I do not want the complexity or weight of flaps, but then again, I'm just starting out. I'm not going to rule out anything yet.

I also got the name of a guy not too far from me who has a T'craft with the Swick Mod (Clipped Wing T'craft). This may lead to more information. It sound like many have used the 23012 airfoil and just eye-ball engineered the project with good results. This is somewhat uplifting, but I won't go this route w/o a good bit more research. Thanks again for all the interesting responses.