View Full Version : POH for a 1939 Cub...
Clyde G. Davis
09-06-2005, 03:14 PM
My wife is ready to take her practical test for Sport Pilot. We have a 1939 Piper J3 Cub. The examiner in Corning, California expects her to have a pilotís operating handbook with all the usual performance figures in it. There isnít one and never has been. He doesnít seem to understand that. Also even if there were an original POH, it wouldnít be valid because the airplane originally had a 40 horse engine and now has 85HP. Also it has vortex generators. The performance figures that we are using have been determined empirically.
The question is what do we do for a POH for this airplane to satisfy this flight examiner? As you may know, there is a dearth of flight examiners for the Sport Pilotís license. She has an appointment tomorrow morning for her practical (flight test). Anything that you-all can do to help resolve this issue right away will be much appreciated.
09-06-2005, 03:19 PM
Just make the examiner happy, make a POH yourself. :lol: :lol:
Clyde G. Davis
09-06-2005, 05:45 PM
I think we may have it resolved. The EAA was very quick to respond with useful information. She is flying with him tomorrow so we'll see what happens. If the examiner won't fly in the Cub tomorrow, she will just skip him and go on to finish her private with a different examiner. I actually did make my own POH, but this guy wasn't buying it, at least not until I forwarded the e-mail from the EAA. Thanks, ...Clyde
09-06-2005, 09:11 PM
Clyde - really enjoyed meeting you and Sue at the Snohomish Fly In this year. Great to hear she is taking the Sport Pilot check ride and I wish her the best of luck. Tell her we are still faithfully using the great hand made scrubber she passed out as souvenirs at the fly-in. Really useful gift. Be sure to let us know how the ride goes. All the best to the both of you.
09-06-2005, 09:34 PM
The closest thing to a POH that I've seen for the J-3 is an owners manual that is available from Wag-Aero that has a brief section on flying hints.
09-07-2005, 12:05 AM
The only thing that is required in the J-3 is the "Limitations" - a single sheet about the size of an airworthiness certificate. They came with the airplane. I made my own copy, and saved the original, which is in quite bad shape.
I think you will find a regulation somewhere that covers those aircraft for which a POH was not issued (and not required). Probably too late now.
09-07-2005, 09:06 AM
On a similar note, I had my flight review last week with a new instructor. New to me, that is; he's been flying for years and years.
He has a one-sheet questionnaire that the pilot completes which has, among other things, data about aircraft performance. My Champ (a 1958 7FC/EC) manual has very sparse information in it about performance. What *is* there is exceedingly optimistic, and would be cause for lawsuits if they printed it today.
The instructor is blessed with a great deal of common sense and simply shrugged when I said the information he wanted isn't available. No big deal.
09-19-2005, 12:39 PM
Most older aircraft do not have a "Pilot Operating Handbook", as is found in newer aircraft. Most do, however, have a Flight Manual, which MUST BE ABOARD the aircraft any time it is in flight. For the Cubs, the Flight Manual is a one page sheet, giving basics, like gross weight, CG, etc, as well as equipment.
It makes NO DIFFERENCE if your airplane is highly modified--if it came with a flight manual, the flight manual must be in the aircraft. For example, I have a 1952 Cessna 170B. It came with a two page flight manual, which describes performance data, and engine specifications for an O-300 engine installation. My airplane has an O-360 Lycoming, a constant speed prop, and on and on-a highly modified airplane. Nonetheless, when a student takes a checkride in that airplane, they have to show the examiner the original flight manual AND all appropriate flight manual supplements.
Ever wonder why when you install anything on an older airplane it comes with a flight manual supplement? It might suggest that there reallly is a flight manual for your airplane.
Not sure about a 1939 model J-3, but my 1946 model had a flight manual, and I'll bet there's one for the 1939 model as well. They should be available from Piper (maybe). A while back I heard that Cessna still provides flight manuals for old airplanes, and I called them up. They provided me with a brand spanking new "original" flight manual for my airplane, including the serial number and tail number (yes, they are specific) to replace the tattered rag of an original.
The examiner is sort of correct--there should probably be a flight manual, but not a POH. The flight manual only provides the most basic information.
09-19-2005, 05:59 PM
The J3 Cubs never came with any kind of a Flight manual or POH. They came from the factory with an "Operating Limitations" placard that is supposed to be in the aircraft. You can find yours in the aircraft records that the FAA has in OK City. Just call them and request your records. For about $5 they will send them to you on a CD if you request it. You can then make up your own and fill in the appropriate numbers for the engine you have. All the speeds and weights will still be the same. the only thing that will change is rpms for the engine (red line)
03-28-2014, 01:33 PM
Hi Bob, if you ever have a chance to post a copy of your "limitations" I would love to see an original example.
03-28-2014, 06:19 PM
Copy of Operation Limitations card from my 1946 J3 Cub. Was included in documentation when I ordered FAA CD. Pretty sure this is what Bob is referring to.
03-28-2014, 06:57 PM
That's it, Randy. Thanks. That form or a facsimile must be in the aircraft, along with a current weight and balance. Since the first post, I have done a Sport and a Private in airplanes without complete performance data. You would be amazed at how many folks have never heard of a Koch chart. We just tell the examiner that it takes 300 feet to get off the ground at sea level, then show her the Koch chart for Big Bear.
How did the first poster's wife do, anyway? Is she flying for United now?
That operations limitation sheet is the only thing I've ever seen in a J3. The 46 model didn't have a POH.
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