Direct Crosswind Landings

I've had instruction on crosswind landings, but never any true instruction in a cub on stiff, direct crosswinds and thought I'd ask the experts for advice, a day late (but not a dollar short). Yesterday, I'd been on a long cross country in the eastern part of the state, and heading west , very close to the airport, I hit that bitter cold Canadian high. I could hardly talk to the traffic, I was getting tossed around. Turning base to final was an event...I kept the throttle in b/c my airspeed was dropping drastically with each gust. I was feeling a bit concerned by this point, as I did not feel in real control of that plane, and have never felt that before. The sock was indicating a gusty direct crosswind from the right. I did not use the flaps, kept it throttled a bit, and the stick to the right. I stuck a wheel landing, not my best, but decent under the circumstances. This is where it got kinda' hairy. I thought I was in control, had the stick into the wind, but then had this bad "feeling" I was going to tump over to the right. Talking to my instructor later, he said I did good to come in w/ a little power, no flaps, and to stick a wheel landing. Where I went wrong was not getting the tail down quick enough. Was I about to ground loop? Or was it the wind getting up underneath my wing (but wouldn't that have caused me to lift to the left?). Anyhow, after several almost-pee-in-my-pants seconds, I got control and taxiid to the hangar, shaking like a leaf. It all happened so fast, it's hard to recall what I did or did not do. I have never ground looped...what's it feel like and how did I stop it when I felt like it was a sure thing? What's the proper landing technique in a cub in stiff direct X winds?
I'm sure the King Air pilots waiting to take off had a good chuckle watching me. I 'm just happy I managed to do the right thing after getting myself into a pickle.

Practice, practice, practice. I use drop the up wind wing and fly down the runway keeping the plane going straight. I also do the same thing crabbing into the wind. It gives you a good practice of how the airplane feels in these situations. You never know when you will go through a front and everything wil get demanding. Good way to keep from learning first hand what it feels like to ground loop.

cubchick said:

I was feeling a bit concerned by this point, as I did not feel in real control of that plane, and have never felt that before.

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You always have the option to land at another airport where you can land into the wind. Not always the best to be the "hero"

Tim

After a xwind incident I had to get a competency ck from the FAA. The FAA examiner insisted I three point the Cub because "If you can get the cub on the ground on three wheels it won't fly off."
Well we did a bunch of three points trys in a heavy cross wind that day. I almost lost the plane and finally told the guy I just didn't think I wanted to do it that way. He let me go with a wheel landing after that and signed me off shaking his head and told me to practice the full stall landing in a cross wind until I felt comfortable.
Go figger

Oh. ABTW At the next Dos XX stop have Massey tell you the story about the fuel trucks being sent out to block the wind so they could taxi in.

Ewww, wish I had thought of that!

Having never ground looped, knock on wood, could someone explain exactly what causes it and what it's like (I know what a ground loop is, but I'm hoping it brings forth a lot of stories, or do poeple not like to admit their mishaps like me?).

cubchick, one other option would be to land into the wind on a perhaps a taxi-way or ramp. I wouuld also land diagonal on the runway to cut down the x-wind componet. Also don't be afraid of unstandard traffic patterns to turn into the wind on base to final. Don't ever quit flying the plane. ANd the kingair crew was jealous they weren't in a cub. dennis.

Goose said:

I wouuld also land diagonal on the runway to cut down the x-wind componet. Also don't be afraid of unstandard traffic patterns to turn into the wind on base to final.

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I used this very technique yesterday, and many times before. Runway is 01/19 and wind was from 280 gusting well over 20. The runway is 100' wide, I tell the tower I am going to land long and use the taxiway for my rollout after touching down essentially sideways on the runway. Once I am on the groud, I figure the rest is just taxiing... even if it is fast.

I greatly prefer wheelies for x-winds, like Joe, I feel out of control in the 3point in high winds, but I know others will disagree. Go with what you are most comfortable with...

sj

I fly off an airport that has 30 ft. wide asphalt and about 50ft of grass on both sides. There are trees about a 100ft away along about half the length with open areas along the rest. When there's a strong crosswind you get all kinds of wind currents,some tumbling like water over rocks in a river. I like to wheel land and keep the tail up until well below flying speed. There have been times when the brakes were all that kept me from going around for a ride. In these inconsistent winds I feel you could stall it on just to be ballooned up and dropped in a split second which might not be good. This is what has and hopefully will continue to work for me.
Marty

I almost never wheel land, no matter what the wind. I was taught by old time tailwheel instructors to 3 point on one wheel and tail wheel and land at the slowest possible speed. Power as required. And I use flaps, sometimes only half. Wheel landings can give you a false sense of security and control. Remember you still have to slow down to get the tail down, putting you in a groundloop potential. The longer that tail is in the air, the potential increases.
In extreme crosswind conditions, I try to land into the wind as much as possible ie. diagonal across the runway, taxiway, grass, whatever as mentioned before. This takes a lot of practice. I agree with the FAA guy.

Cubchick,
1st thing is that you did a good job getting it down without a problem. 2nd, it sounds like it scared you. Fear is good, I think we've all been spooked good at one time or another. My adrenal gland will squirt adrenaline into me like a turkey baster when things get ugly. It gets you on your toes. You did good.
As far as what a ground loop is.... I always explained it to people that it's like backing up a car or pickup at high speed. They're hard to keep straight, and want to spin around. Used to do it with the ol' beaters we had when we milked, out in the hay field. (try it in a slick grass/hayfield)These airplanes because they steer from the back, always want to swap ends once the tail hits the ground.
Another out is... when winds are giving you fits, and you're set up to land, and then on the ground......you're still not commited as long as you have some speed lift. I never been an instructor, but 30 yrs ago gave a lot of dual in cubs with their new owners. If they lost it bad, (nasty bad)many times it was easier to save it by slappin the throttle with the heel of my hand and make it fly again. The engine thrust will try to pull the airplane straight ahead, and in 2 seconds we could be off. You may not be climbing out over the runway, but they didn't prang a wing.
I never totally commit until I'm so slow that it's firmly planted on the ground. If it won't stay down, slap the throttle and try it again.
Keep in mind there's a million variables to this and all the above posts are good. Maybe some of the other guys can improve on what I'm trying to explain.
Best part of your post is that you're asking questions.
Wilbur

Cubchick -

I think most of us that have been flying these things awhile have either had a close call or an actual accident/Incedent with an airplane in gusty crosswind conditions. I know that when I was beginning to fly cubs 20 something years ago I actually ran a cub off the runway (luckily missing the runways lights) Nothing happened to the airplane but it certainly got my attention. If you are going to fly tailwheel airplanes when the nosedragger folks are out you will have to get through the learning curve of dealing with crosswinds/gusty winds. A lot of it is stick and rudder skills. but just as important if you don't have the confidence to be out there in the first place, things can get dangerous real fast... I suggest finding someone who is real comfortable in the back seat of a cub and go find some 10 - 15 knot crosswinds.... remember... you fly the airplane til its stopped and tied down. Good Luck

Greetings CubChick,

By the way, I like the name. We live in rual Alaska (bush), which means not on the road system. I fondly refer to my wife as my "bush babe". And like you, my sweetie BushBabe loves to drive the Cub.

At any rate, to answer your question; I view the term "group loop" as a general term used to decribe an airplane getting damaged while on the ground. Not in flight.
Typically when I think of a classic "ground loop" I think of lose of directional control, based on over/under rudder & aileron input, resulting in a quick, sometimes jerky, change in direction, and quickly there after another VERY quick change in direction (loop), which generally ends up w/ a broken or folded gear leg, maybe a bent prop, and a good many times you'll also get a wing tip. Another way to decribe this would be to have the plane veer one way, and then over-correct the opposite way, which causes the plane to loop around so quickly that it tips the outside wing up, causing damage to that wing tip, and sometimes the gear & prop.
That said, I've heard a lot of people use the term "ground loop" to discribe any damage a plane receives while on the ground.

Different people use different methods to cope w/ various wind conditions, agree that practice, practice, and more practice will help. As you gain time you'll relax your death grip on the stick, also your hand won't be sweaty afterwards. I see a lot of people grab the V-brace wy/ their left hand everytime they bomb into some air, this also goes away wy/ time.
SOJA made a great point about landing sideways on the runway. Keep in mind that you could be the best Cub driver ever, however a Cub can only take a certain amount of xi-wind. Play it safe....afterall, its only a Cub, and will never suprise you or doing anything nasty. If you're un-comfortable with the xi-wind component, square-up to the wind, set your flaps, and use the wind in your favor. Bar pro-active instead of re-active.
My personal limit is around 15-20mph direct x-wind, anything more and I'm considering different options.

Good Flying...>Byron Lamb

PS..>Another "trick" you might try is to teach yourself to drive w/ your left hand. After you master total control wy/ your right hand, change over to your left hand, at first it takes some getting used to.
Another great method for getting the feel of the airplane if flying from the back seat. If you want, and to keep good wy&BA, have someone sit in the front. By flying the machine from the backseat you can feel a slip or skid much more than from sitting in the front. Also, because you can't see that little ball, you will have to learn the "feel" of the plane w/o using ANY gauges or instrument. A good place to fly while learning the feel of the plane is to follow a meandering creek, some of your turns will be 30* to the right, the next turn might be 45* to the left. Oh...I suppose it would be a good idea if you were very familiar w/ the stall characteristics of the plane before you try this, however...VERY good real-world training.

landing tecnique

While we are on the subject of handling lightplanes in crosswind conditions...my Dad, who learned to fly in the 1930's and had thousands of hours in lightplanes..used to land crosswind by letting the plane crab into the wind..and letting the speed decay to the point of a stall...then "kicking" the airplane straight just before the wheels touched..and landing 3 point in a fully stalled configuration.
I learned to fly the approach by slipping down to the ground and letting the airspeed decay to right above the stall, and planting the upwind wheel on the ground, and then transitioning to a fully stalled configuration.
My rationale was that I could judge my ability to land in the crosswind better....if I ran out of rudder ...I wasn't going to be able to hold it straight once I was fully stalled.
Who's method was better...or is there an answer..other than just personal preference.
Randy

To you guys that stall it on no matter what, here is a senerio I'm curious about. Crosswind 20 mph, inconsistent because of trees. If you were to make a pass 10ft above the runway about 10mph above stall and also had sharp 5ft or so ups and downs is a stall landing still the best in these conditions?
Marty

Let me add - Hand on the throttle and stick and you are one with the airplane. I mean be quick. Don't waste a nano second in responding to whats happening. Lenghten the approach so the airplane has time to talk to you,then move the center line to one side or the other.

Randy the problem with kickout method on taildraggers (it works ok on nosedraggers) is that you are getting the CG swinging pretty hard just before touchdown and often it will keep going. I have seen guys get away with it in taildraggers, and I have seen guys who have not gotten away with it... I think wing low/slip 2 landing for either 3point or wheel is best especially just before touchdown - so you don't create a big shift of weight at the last second...

sj

If landing on a wide runway, I usually try to land on the downwind side and will try and get a better angle into the wind. Other rationale is that if I lose it and it weathervanes, I have a lot more ashpalt to use than I would if I landed in the center or upwind side. Always remember that landing is the option and be prepared to go around or go someplace else. Like everything else, practice practice and fly the airplane from chock to chock.

DE

The good and bad of 3 point versus wheel landing was beat to death on a previous thread so we won't go there, but I would suggest doing a search and taking a look at it. There was a lot of good info both ways.
I would suggest "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot" by Plourde, available every where and a video by Larry Bartlett called "Taming the Taildragger".
The video is a little corny in spots but they take a PA12, set one wheel up on a box to get the wing in the air and then display how normally instinctive control inputs actually make a groundloop situation worse.
If you don't want to buy it, I have a VHS copy I will lend you, just pm me your address.

Bob D.

CubChick,
Something that everyone missed is to make a low approach
across the field (runway) to simulate the landing to
assess the wind conditions, before you commit.
Mark

Taledrger said:

I would suggest "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot" by Plourde, available every where and a video by Larry Bartlett called "Taming the Taildragger".
The video is a little corny in spots but they take a PA12, set one wheel up on a box to get the wing in the air and then display how normally instinctive control inputs actually make a groundloop situation worse.
If you don't want to buy it, I have a VHS copy I will lend you, just pm me your address.

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Bob, all my taildragger students have to read that book, and I loan them the video. It IS corny... but I love it when he botches a 3point an converts it to a wheel landing in the PA12. Just shows you to go with what you know... He has a lot of "old friends" with nice planes...

BTW, Larry also has a video on flying the alaska highway in his C-195 that is also corny, but has some great scenery.

sj

MMR,

EXCELLENT point and an EXCELLENT strategy.

sj

I have never seen a successful "crab and kick" or whatever they're called, landing. One guy was going to show me one in a 737 - he was ex- air force, and I figured he knew what he was talking about. So I let him - not such a great landing. I can't even imagine such a landing in a Cub.

The big deal in a Cub is just what everybody has said - pick a nice day with steady crosswinds, and just go out and practice. It takes time, not native ability. You will find that they are really fun, as long as the wind isn't too gusty, and after a year or so, you will be comfortable in unusual and gusty conditions. The Cub loves crosswinds, and you will, too, after a while. I prefer full-stall, but be good at both!

Everybody is jealous of Cub pilots. Especially King Air pilots!

steve said:

Randy the problem with kickout method on taildraggers (it works ok on nosedraggers) is that you are getting the CG swinging pretty hard just before touchdown and often it will keep going. I have seen guys get away with it in taildraggers, and I have seen guys who have not gotten away with it... I think wing low/slip 2 landing for either 3point or wheel is best especially just before touchdown - so you don't create a big shift of weight at the last second...

sj

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I prefer the wing low/slip method...... and 3 point. If the wind is too strong for that, figure something else out. Also, the tail dragging becomes a good stabilizer on the rollout to keep the aircraft aligned with the direction it is moving..... like a drag chute or sea anchor.

One point: the kick out method is into the wind. The aircraft is not going to have CG momentum enough to swing the tail into the wind. If anything, it will help counter the side wind force on the fuselage.

Wheel landings really set you up for a ground loop when lowering the tail unless you use perfect rudder/aileron control and possibly braking to keep the tail from swinging downwind... letting the CG momentum get you into a full blown ground loop.

Another point if landing on hard surface is to keep the wheels light enough so they can slide sideways. If the downwind wheel grips hard and the tail is already starting around, you are only along for the ride from that point on. Taking on an extreme crosswind with underinflated tires is an invitation for disaster also.

direct crosswind landings

I like a BIG slip to get me down and on the ground asap...and I land on the downwind side of the runway...a wheel landing on the upwind wheel. I try to get the tail down asap, and turn more and more up into the wind as I slow down. As mentioned above, it sure helps to have a taxiway to head into, or some grass if necessary. Stick all the way back and all the way into the wind...more gas RIGHT NOW if necessary. If I get it right, and that sure doesn't always happen, this keeps me comfortable to about 25-30mph. I have managed to make it work at 30+, but the pucker facxtor was very real every time. I also had the wind swing on me very quickly in one of these cases, headed for some runway lights, and it cost me a prop and engine tear down. Now I always do a low fly by in iffy conditions, and then if it feels right, go with the above.

Well, I've said this before, but there is a HUGE difference between a steady state crosswind and a gusty crosswind. Both require different techinques from the pilot, and different tolerances from the airplane.

Use whichever technique you're most comfortable with, but learn BOTH, practice BOTH, and decide for yourself what works best in differing circumstances.

But remember, a crosswind isn't always the same beast.

MTV

mvivion said:

Well, I've said this before, but there is a HUGE difference between a steady state crosswind and a gusty crosswind. Both require different techinques from the pilot, and different tolerances from the airplane.
MTV

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Good point Mike!

One thing I learned from a WWII / Korean war pilot/instructor I had was to "fly the tail down" just before it stalls on the wheel landing, don't wait for it to stall. They wheel landed all those big old WWII warbrids and he said in a x-wind if you let the tail stall it was going to pass you on the way to the hangar...

sj

x winds

Cubchick,the king air guys were watching you knowing you could probably land thier airplane better under those conditions than they could land yours.They were just glad it wasn't them!...Thanks for asking the question ...it's always interesting and educational.

x-wind landings

This post hasn't got much to do with Cubchicks original question concerning the transition of an "air vehicle" to a "ground vehicle" in a crosswind situation...but I thought I would just throw this into the mix.

A book I read many years ago "Stick and Rudder: An explaination of the Art of Flying" by Wolfgang Langewiesche was a great help to me as a beginning pilot...and a storehouse of practical flying knowledge.
I'm sure it is still in print....maybe some online aviation bookstores would still have it availiable. I really think it should be a "must read" for pilots.
He went into great detail about such matters.

Another observation concerning the "art" of flying is that I never see anybody slipping (big ones)in for a landing anymore.
I know we don't have to do that anymore, as most modern aircraft have flaps and spoilers...but it was a beautiful thing to watch.
An instructor said to me once that you could always tell "someone from the old school" was flying..as they would stay higher on the approach...and then kill altitude with some vigorous slips down to the threshold.
Some would slip even if they had flaps availiable to them. Part of the "art" of flying that we seem to losing these days, I suppose.
Randy

Randy,

I slip fairly often, even with flaps. Just make certain (at some altitude) that your chosen steed tolerates slips with flaps deployed rather well before you try that technique close to the ground, lest the ground come up to smite thee.

MTV