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Crosswinds

Anne

Registered User
SE Michigan
What's the highest crosswind you've ever landed your Supercub in? Please give windspeed and direction (how many degrees off your nose).

Anne.
 
Anne,
One of the beauties of the Super Cub is that it is rarely necessary to land it with a bad crosswind (unless possibly in the bush). If the wind is too strong across a wide runway, I usually just land into the wind. I have also landed on more than one taxiway connecting to a parallel taxiway, or a high-speed turnoff. I really prefer landing in the grass infield, when possible. Somebody else will have to address the occasions when these practices are not practical.
 
I should have added that sometimes these practices will put you at odds with the airport manager, or the control tower. This is when you need to decide how strongly you wish to defend your rights as pilot in command.
 
Anna,
Ron is correct about the beauty of a supercub being able to land pretty much into the wind when possible. I have on an occasion or two landed with a 30 mph. wind coming from60 to 80 degrees across the nose. Lots of wing into the wind, landing on the tail and one main.
 
Ruidoso Ron said:
I should have added that sometimes these practices will put you at odds with the airport manager, or the control tower. This is when you need to decide how strongly you wish to defend your rights as pilot in command.

This raises an old issue. Does the PIC need to justify his decisions by referring to limitations? I say no. He has the responsibility and the authority to do whatever he deems necessary to ensure the safety of the flight. If the airport manager doesn't like it, he can lobby his rep to have the law changed. If you end up in a landing incident, you can bet that the airport authorities will be the first to point the finger at the PIC's responsibility.
 
The pilot of a supercub can handle any crosswind by landing more and more directly into the wind until perpendicular the the runway. I've never landed more than a 45 degrees to the active fun way but that was all that was needed. Clearwater isn't known for major winds. It should second nature to factor out as much wind by landing from one side of the run way to the other. For example landing runway 4 and the winds are 020. Land across the runway on a 020 heading thus factoring out the cross wind. Does that make sense. I've practiced that at winds at 23 gust to 35.
 
Good afternoon:


Question about landing on grass along side the active runway; is it against faa rules and regulations? that particular airport's rules and regulations? particular state's rules and regulations? i.e. is it mandatory to use the runway? With the bigger tires, it is easier on the tires if not paved and under cetain conditions maybe safer. Some airports have both paved and grass/dirt side by side and pilots can use either. I am referring to airports that have a paved runway and open grass that could be landed on without a problem for a cub equipped with the larger tires and not beacuse wind conditions are such that you absolutely have to land into a strong head wind.

John
 
Interesting question, consider how often you hear the tower clear a helicopter to operate at some location other than the runway with the caution "...at your own risk". Or is it a time to invoke "always easier to ask forgiveness than permission".
Mikey
 
I hear that everyday. Its usually followed by ( the reason ) " not visible from the tower" or "non movement area".

Airport management dictates where you can land. ATC has no say in the matter, they just get blamed because they are the ones that have to tell you.
 
Kase..........
Assuming there are no directives from airport management:
1) If a pilot asks to land wherever he wants(grass, taxiway, etc) does ATC have to let him if there are no other traffic conflicts?
2) Do you have to request this permission from ATC or just advise them what your intentions are?
3) If a pilot lands contrary to airport management rules is ATC responsable for any enforcement or required to notify airport management?
Ya never know............... :wink:
 
Assuming there are no directives from airport management


1) If a pilot asks to land wherever he wants(grass, taxiway, etc) does ATC have to let him if there are no other traffic conflicts?

Yes, we cannot deny a clearance. You are PIC, if somebody dosent like it, its up to you to defend yourself.

2) Do you have to request this permission from ATC or just advise them what your intentions are?

You need to advise and then the tower should let you do what you want traffic permitting. Again its up to you if somebody complains. You should have a good reason for no runway operations.

3) If a pilot lands contrary to airport management rules is ATC responsable for any enforcement or required to notify airport management?

Negative. However I have never seen a airport that has a operating control tower not have somekind of directives for this kind of activity. A few months ago we had a Super Cub land in the grass do to high winds. Tower asvised landing your own risk etc. Non event as far as ATC was concerned. Airport management really had a problem with it and notified FSDO. Nothing became of it.

At BIL we are required to notify the airport operations people for non standard landings etc. We are not required to initiate enforcement action.

Theres a small airport 12 SW of BIL that dosent permit grass landings along side the runway, next one at 38 SW does allow it.
 
Good morning:

Thanks for the input so far. If you are at an airport without a control tower, it appears the only issue would be with the airport management regarding whether off runway landings/takeoffs are allowed.

John
 
One question might be, what's the condition of the area that's not designated as a runway? Besides long grass and weeds, there could be holes (ie, drainage ditches or moles). You would have to know that airport pretty well to keep out of trouble. Landing in the grass might cause more damage than landing with a crosswind.

Anne.
 
Good morning:

Good advice. I did walk the area and it is in good shape for landings. An area should be inspected before someone does land if all possible.

John
 
A few months ago, while discussing my hangar land lease with my airport manager, I suggested that he put in some grass next to the small parallel runway that is used entirely by smaller and slower airplanes. He acted like landing on grass was a completely new idea, and I am sure it was to him. I mentioned a nearby (35 miles) airport that lets me land on the grass next to the paved runway when I am visiting for fuel. Again, he looked blank, but appeared to be poorly suppressing a laughing fit. I am going to repeat the idea in different ways for a long time -- until he thinks it is his idea.
 
** Report created 8/23/2004 Record 1 **
********************************************************************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 40AW Make/Model: A-1A Description: AVIAT A-1A
Date: 04/12/2004 Time: 0100

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: VISALIA State: CA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
N40AW, AN AVIAT A-1A ACFT, LANDED ON THE DIRT ADJACENT TO THE TAXIWAY,
LOST CONTROL AND HIT A PARKED ACFT, N8321X, PA28, BOTH RECEIVED SUBSTANTIAL
DAMAGE, VISALIA, CA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: Y
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: Y
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: NOT REPORTED



OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General Aviation

Departed: UNK Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: UNK Flt Plan: UNK Wx Briefing:
Last Radio Cont: UNK
Last Clearance: UNK

FAA FSDO: FRESNO, CA (WP17) Entry date: 08/20/2004


 
Must be a thing about Husky's landing next to runways. See Accident dated 7-24-04 N991C. ( dont know how to copy it.)
 
So this sounds like if I land in the grass next to a paved runway, that will help my crosswind landings?? :lol:

Anne.
 
Cross wind

In answer to the original question, I landed Sunday on Blakley island here in the San Juans. It was blowing 90deg from left to right. The runway is grass/gravel and too narrow to cheat into the wind. I stayed on one wheel dragging the tip in the grass and got on with no real excitement. The person I was going to visit has a home weather station. According to his readout the wind was 20 to 24 with gusts to 28 and 30. The only question was to try and use the trees on one end as a wind break or if they would just add to the turbulence. I chose no trees and just took the wind. Hope that helps. Jerry. :)
 
Gotta love NTSB reports, (ref. the Husky accident at Driggs), what relevance does the wind at Jackson Hole have to an accident at Driggs???? It's on the other side of the friggin Teton's for god's sake! But given the pilots report of 5-6 bounces, sounds like the excess speed was in the forward direction, not from a right angle.
Chris
 
Quite often I'll leave the airport with calm winds only to get to the field 20 miles away and have a howling wind or have the wind one direction and fly out to a field I needed that wind for drift only to have the wind the complete opposite way.
Got up this morning to spray - wind at airport was calm. Computer showed wind at all the sites north of here to be in excess of 20 MPH. thank god for computers and those remote DOT sites. Does show that if the NTSB uses anything but the wind at that site at that moment, they could be wrong.
 
Good afternoon:


It appears my original question should have been posted on another topic sight. I did not mean to suggest you land on other than the paved runway to avoid a crosswind at all means. Again, my question was one of legalities. From some of the responses, it appears some pilots may want to restrict their landings to paved runways only, if you are suggesting per the attached reports that it is more dangerous to land on turf, dirt,gravel,etc. The majority of my landings have been on turf, in fields, dirt, gravel roads etc. and find these conditions easier on my tires. It is sad to think some people may think you can only land on pavement.

John
 
supercubdriver said:
Good afternoon:


It appears my original question should have been posted on another topic sight. I did not mean to suggest you land on other than the paved runway to avoid a crosswind at all means. Again, my question was one of legalities. From some of the responses, it appears some pilots may want to restrict their landings to paved runways only, if you are suggesting per the attached reports that it is more dangerous to land on turf, dirt,gravel,etc. The majority of my landings have been on turf, in fields, dirt, gravel roads etc. and find these conditions easier on my tires. It is sad to think some people may think you can only land on pavement.

John

John you obviouly haven't been on here long enough to realize we very seldom stick to topic regardless of where you post, We were just making light of the fact that several have wrecked landing in the grass when thats usually why you do (especially since they were Husky's). I always land in the grass beside the runway with my Cub. saves on those expensive tires.
 
I just posted that report of a example why airports may not want you landing off their runways.

Again, my question was one of legalities.

Call the airport where you want to do this and your local FSDO and see what they say. Report back what you find out.
 
kase,

Exactly. My guess is you'll never get an airport manager or anyone in FAA to tell you its okay to land across a runway, alongside a runway, or anywhere on an airport that there isn't a white line.

Most of the cases where this happens without issues occur in places with no operating control tower, and nobody asks, nobody tells. Where there's an operating control tower, and you tell them (don't ask) you're going to use a taxiway, or ??? for safety's sake, as long as you don't break anything, I doubt ANY controller would ever file a report on you.

Get it down safe, that's the key.

Now, one thing I find interesting so far in this thread is that nobody has even mentioned the notion that SOMETIMES the best plan is to simply go somewhere else, where the wind isnt' so strong or so much of a crosswind.

One problem I see with some pilots is that they get so focused on landing at THAT airport, they totally miss the notion of going somewhere else, including a true off airport site.

Just some other ideas, but if you go to management beforehand looking for permission to use the ramp area for a landing, I can pretty much tell you what the "official" answer will be.

I recall years ago, at Cold Bay, Christmas Eve, a very well known pilot who lived further up the Peninsula had been in CDB for days working hard to reduce the backlog of bush mail. On Christmas Eve, the wind was absolutely howling across the runway at CDB, but right down the runway at his place. He lined the Widgeon up into the wind on the ramp in front of Flight Service, called the FSS folks, and asked them to look north for a few minutes (as in away from the ramp). After his takeoff over the FSS building, he wished them a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

We called later that evening to make sure he got home okay.

Do what you have to do, but do it intelligently. And its easier to ask forgiveness after the fact than for permission before. Assuming it all works out, of course.

MTV
 
Thanks for all the replies. I was wondering how much the plane could handle because when I started flying, it was in Cherokees, and the crosswind component was always given to me as 17 kts. That's not total wind, just direct crosswind.

I've been a real weenie about crosswinds, and was just wondering how much the cub would handle. I'm trying to get braver, and knowing the limits helps (although at this time the plane has way more capability than I do, but I'm working on it).

Supercubdriver, two or more topics under one post is our way of conserving space on the web server. It's normal around here.

Anne.
 
One more thing Anne, at your home field with wind mild or down the runway practice landing and flying down the runway on one wheel. Learn to do it at your own pace but once you get the hang of it, it's a lot of fun and good preparation for major crosswinds.
 
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