Building a Smith Cub

I will start this thread and try to post my "education" as I go on this project.

Ordered the kit in Jan 04. Nick Smith jr was exceptionally helpful at all times. Always promptly returned phone calls and e-mails. Reserved my delivery slot even before he actually got the 5k deposit check just based on my word. How nice that is. Can't say enough good things about the Smiths. Wings were to be delivered at Oshkosh and fuselage in Oct., he called a couple of days ago to let me know the wings were ready. How nice to do business with someone who does what he says he will and ahead of schedule no-less, you don't see that everyday. I will use Air-tec and try to get the wings covered before the rest comes. Will continue this thread as I go.

Bill

Fit

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but because this is not a rebuild. It might be a good idea to hang the wings on the fuse, fit the tubes, wires, lines, fairings, and then cover them. Not all surprises are happy ones. Jerry.

100% agree with Jerry

Great idea for a thread Bill and I'm looking forward to reading about your experiences in the days to come. They had a demo at the Ak Airmen's trade show and I think it was one of the unsung surprises of the event, I never could get the guy alone long enough to ask him any questions but I sure liked what I heard him telling other interested parties. For the money the quality and attention to detail was very impressive also. Good luck with your project and like I say please keep the progress reports coming. DennisB.

Bill, This will be great. Can't wait for dialog and pictures. It probably will be easier in the long run to wait on covering. My Dad flew his Clipper home 2 weeks ago after complete fuselage rebuild and cover w/all new sheet metal. Against my advise he covered first. Before he left I asked him what he would have done different and you can guess what he said. I just got him back for all the advise he gave me that I had to learn the hard way. Glad your getting the ball rolling, I know your excited.

Road trip

Went to get the wings on Monday. The Smiths are outside London, Ontario Canada. Near detroit. Took a flatbed aluminum Snowmobile trailer up there, about 16 feet long. The Smiths were super. Showed me around and mounted the wings on the trailer for me with brackets that hold the wings upright by attaching to the mounting points at the spars, fuselage and strut points.
This set up was superb. The wings were firmly and securely mounted and traveled back home on some pretty crummy roads just fine. They did not just say "OK here are your wings ..... see ya." They mounted em up. That is definitely going the extra mile. Way Cool.
They have a lot of tooling and jigs and obviously take great pride in doing a quality product. Their jigs are not 2xi4's but HEAVY duty steel. Ain't nothin moving there.
I was most impressed.
Plan to order Aeroflash strobes and Airtec tomorrow. Landing lights are already on order, and will have to install pitot line, plumb gas tanks, leak check em, etc

Let the games begin

Bill

Hi Bill,

If you or anyone else need help or information with the Air Tech covering system, please give me a call or email and I will always try to help or pass on some of the mistakes that I made when first starting out. We are the Canadian distributors of Air Tech, but also recover 4-5 planes per year. We currently have a J-3, PA-18, PA-20 and 7AC in the shop getting restored right now.

Phil Kite 800-491-8987 phil@kiteair.com

Alaskan Smith Aviation Kit Builders

Hi,
Just curious how many Alaskans were building or planning on building a Smith Aviation Kit? I've got one of their Bushmasters on order. They are going to show it at the 2005 Alaskan Airman?s show and then I will take delivery.
I am still playing with engine ideas for mine. I think I'm going with an HO-360 pumped up by Lycon.
Anyway it would be nice to have idea of who in Alaska has taken the plunge beside myself.

Kelvin

Have the Smith's made any progress toward getting on the 51% rule list? I have working over 2 months with the local FSDO on getting the data plate replaced for my PA-12, he has finally notified me that a letter was sent to Cub Parts in British Columbia authorizing them to sell me a replacement plate. What an education! At first they did not accept the fact that the fuselage frame # is not the serial #. Then they did not accept the fact that Piper did not own the type certificate. I cannot imagine that they would ever issue a certificate for a Smith airplane without it being on the approved list. Jim

Bill, Start a photo album on the site from the pick-up of the wings to the grin on your face when you fly it for the first time. That would be great.

Steve, I will as soon as I figure out how to post em.

The 51% rule is not quite the same as a new data plate, but your point is well taken. I don't think the Smiths are working on it at this time. They have about 15 or so flying and claim that it has not been much of a problem so far. (I guess one had a issue in Alaska, may have been builders documentation, you have to show your work, if you walk in to the FAA with no builders log, pictures, receipts etc. then it begs the question as to whether you really did the work.) It would not make a difference on certification, but it does make a difference on whether they will issue a repairmans certificate to the builder, thus allowing you to do your annuals, if not , the annual must be done by an A@P. Does not need IA certification. You can still do whatever work you want to, but once a year an A@P would have to do and sign off an annual.

Kelvin There are only about 4 Smith kits in Alaska, I'm not sure why there are not more, unless it is the lack of commercial use. About 15 reside in the Boise ID area, with probably 10 flying there.

Phil Thank you for that kind offer. I will no doubt take you up on it. Ordered supplies today. Paint will be white with red trim.


Bill

The quick build Bearhawk qualifies for the 51% rule and from what I have seen they are about the same as far as what the builder has to do.

I've talked to Nick Smith a fair amount about the 51% rule. As far as he knows he has had only one builder that had problems. As Bill said, it was a builder in Anchorage who had problems documenting who built the kit. I've also talked to the Fairbanks FAA who told me if I show them the FAA's 8000-38 form (51% paperwork) accepted by other FAA inspectors they would accept mine, (with the usual disclaimers about me trying to pull a fast one).
I've also had some experience with Nick Smith's business ethics and I can tell you they are of the highest caliber. I trust this man.

Kelvin

Received all covering supplies from Air Tech. Excellent to do business with. Recommended!!

Having great difficulty with Lycon. Ken WILL NOT return my phone calls. I have called 16 times and he returned 1 call a month ago. I have no idea what is going on and at this point I am NOT impressed.

Purchased the book "The Aeroelectric Connection" (www.aeroelectric.com). Highly recommended, excellent source of aviation electric info. They are closely tied to B&C which seems to have a solid reputation in the business.

Bill

Bill Rusk said:

....Having great difficulty with Lycon. Ken WILL NOT return my phone calls. I have called 16 times and he returned 1 call a month ago. I have no idea what is going on and at this point I am NOT impressed....

Bill

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I must admit I have had the same problems with him, though email seems to work better. I've chalked it up to a very busy shop. What flavor of engine are you thinking of using?

With the current cost of avgas I've started having second thoughts about the wisdom of an high compression engine. I'm wondering if I might be better served by something that can burn auto gas.

Kelvin

Bill Rusk said:

....It would not make a difference on certification, but it does make a difference on whether they will issue a repairmans certificate to the builder....

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Hi Bill,

Be advised that, regarding amateur-built certification, having or not having documentation of who built the airplane WILL impact the certification. The applicant must have documentation that proves that amateur builders did the major portion of the work in order to certificate the aircraft as amateur-built. (This is regardless of whether or not the applicant will be applying for a repairman certificate or not.)

The applicant for an experimental/amateur-built airworthiness certificate must submit an Amateur-Built Eligibility Statement (FAA Form 8130-12). The "meat" of that form is a statement certifying that the aircraft was built by amateur builders, and the applicant has the documentation to support that claim. The FAA inspector or DAR will review this documentation in order to verify that the aircraft meets the requirements of amateur-built certification.

The burden of proof is on the applicant. No documentation, no amateur-built airworthiness certificate. (At least, that's the way the system is supposed to work!) In such a case, the airplane may be placed in a different experimental category, such as experimental/exhibition. However, the operating limitations for other experimental categories are far more restrictive than amateur-built, so having the documentation is a major issue.

Regarding the Smith kit specifically, I sat down with a Smith kit builder some time ago and went over his project using FAA Form 8000-38, the Fabrication and Assembly Operations Checklist. This is the same form the FAA uses when they evaluate a kit for inclusion on the "51% list". We found that the Smith kit does indeed meet the requirements for certification as amateur-built. The count was close, but not that close. In view of these findings, I would not have any reservations about issuing an amateur-built airworthiness certificate for a Smith Cub. (Providing that the applicant had proof that amateur builders did the work on the project.)

Joe Norris

Joe

Thank you for setting the record straight. It is really nice to have an insider on the team so to speak. I sincerely appreciate your inputs and look forward to seeing you at New Holstein.

Bill

engine

KelvinG said:

Bill Rusk said:

....Having great difficulty with Lycon. Ken WILL NOT return my phone calls. I have called 16 times and he returned 1 call a month ago. I have no idea what is going on and at this point I am NOT impressed....

Bill

Click to expand...

I must admit I have had the same problems with him, though email seems to work better. I've chalked it up to a very busy shop. What flavor of engine are you thinking of using?

With the current cost of avgas I've started having second thoughts about the wisdom of an high compression engine. I'm wondering if I might be better served by something that can burn auto gas.

Kelvin

Click to expand...

The new XP-0360 from Superior is rated for auto gas and you can even get the engine in kit form if you like. I think assembled in the experimental form it is around $17,000.00. I don't know what the kit would cost. I am with you on the cost of 100LL. Out in the Bush it is going through the roof. Crash

Kelvin

Well I was going to try a 9 to 1 ratio. Should still be able to use a little auto gas if necessary, but that is on the outside edge, may have to use an additive, and will have to be VERY careful. At this rate though I may end up with a regular engine as no help from Lycon.

Bill

Bill Rusk said:

I sincerely appreciate your inputs and look forward to seeing you at New Holstein.

Click to expand...

Hi Bill,

I'd sure love to be at New Holstein, but until I retire from EAA there won't be much chance of me making it over there for the Super Cub gathering. They pretty much keep me busy sunup to sundown at AirVenture. (But they pay me to be there, so I ain't really complaining! )

Take care, and keep in touch!

Joe

Joe

Good point, I guess I should have thought of that. I'll hunt you down at the show then, just to shake hands and say hello.

Did some serious research on the RV forums (WWW. Matronics.com) regarding Lycon and could not find a single negative comment except that are slow at times. Ken did call me back and said they were going to ship today. The price was about as quoted which was nice. So Lycon is back on my OK list and if they do ship they will be back on the good list with the caveat that they are slow. Kens right hand man, Steve, is out with back surgery and that has no doubt been a factor. When Ken called back it was late on a Saturday so he is working OVERTIME.

Got the first big order from Spruce and will start building a paint booth today.

Bill

Future of Smith Aviation

Just thought I'd pass along a part of Smith's July newsletter. Too many times I've seen good deals or exceptional quality parts and thought "I will have to get that one of these days" only to find out when I was ready, the part or deal wasn't available any more.

Glad this time I didn't do that this time. My kit will be delivered in the first part of 2005!

Kelvin

Don?t Panic
This is one of the harder things I?ve had to put down on paper, but I?ve always been up front with people and I want to be up front with our customers about the future of Smith Aviation. My father Nick Sr will be 62 years on his next birthday, although he works like he is in his 20?s, actually most 20 year olds don?t work as hard. I?m 34 with a young family, with sons in ages 1, 3, 5, and 15. I?ve worked very hard, along with my father the last 10 years to make Smith Aviation what it is today. with the surge of sales recently, along with Nick Sr?s desire to slow down, and my ambition to spend more time with my family, and the need to build more planes to accommodate our customers, we have decided to look into the possibility of selling our business. Now, before anyone panics, there is no sale imminent at this time. We have had discussions with several companies and one has shown serious interest. We are going to weigh all our options before selling as there is no rush. It may end up that we still own our business 5 years from now if a proper owner has not been found, one that places a priority on quality before profit. I will keep you informed of any further developments,

Thanks,

Nick Smith Jr.

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Update

A couple of folks were kind enough to ask for a progress report so here goes.

Engine - I started dealing with Lycon in Feb, sent parts to him for rework in Apr, he said he would have em done by Jun, after a bit of frustration I got the last of the parts on 3 Sept. So basically they were about 3 months later than planned/stated for a total of about 5 months to get the parts. I am very pleased with the quality and price so far. I have the engine mostly assembled and should have it on the test cell by the end of Oct. I was hoping to have the engine done and set aside at this point so I could concentrate on the wings, but alas Lycon was a little slow and..... "The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry". With the help of Lycon I am at 9 to 1 comp ratio and I am hoping for about 180 plus Hp. We will see. We have a Dyno here and If it is working I hope to Dyno the engine late this year.

Wings - I covered the flaps and didn't like it so ripped all the fabric off and recovered them. The book says that you can cover right over small protrusions of up to 2 inches.....well that is true on a large area like a wing but it does not work so well on a small surface like a flap. Duh..., I am a little slow at times. Anyway,I recovered them and also the ailerons. Got the flaps stitched, and I will be taping today. Hope to take them through paint in the next week or so to learn and test the waters, that way if I don't like the quality of my work the loss to redo it is not like redoing a whole wing panel. So far the Airtec system is about like the others I guess. You glue the fabric, iron it, stitch it, and tape it. Then the systems diverge in the paint process. I do like the glue up system of airtec as (from what my neighbors say) it seems easier to get the tapes on straight.

Fuselage - I am supposed to get the fuselage in Oct. I spoke to Nick Sr and they have NOT sold the business and things are progressing normally I think. I plan to go see him on Tuesday and will report back. He says his own personal Smith Cub is ready to fly as soon as they get the paperwork. It looks great, Cub yellow, with a low compression Lycon engine at about 170 to 175 Hp.

Got the paint booth done. 12 by 24 Built with white presswood sides so it is rigid and is probably way overkill. 2 rows of florescent lights and 4 Halogen flood lights, 2 intake fans and 1 exhaust fan all filtered. Hopefully it will work well. Sure was a pain to build.

Next update after engine runs and or I get some paint on the flaps.
Also going to try to learn to set up digital photos so I can put a file here for all to see. Note that I figured out the Avatar stuff so there is hope.
Will also talk about the John Roncz phone call on next update.

Bill

Bill it sounds like your having as much fun as me. Last week we squeezed
the fuselage in the basement to get started on the fitting of TMX 360,
wiring,fuel lines ect. Tail surfaces and flaps are waiting for color, wings
are stiched and tapes are next. Fuel and valve system is a challenge.
Have a safe trip!

Building a Smith and enjoying every minute.
John

Covering

Do not glue the fabric onto the trailing edge. I have now covered the flaps 3 times and I think I am getting it figured out. Steep learning curve here. If you glue the fabric to the TE it will show as a very unsightly line. Much better if you cover the flap with one piece of fabric and put the seam at the LE (on the top side of the LE). It will then be hidden under a tape and also by the cove of the wing. In so doing do not glue it to the TE, just wrap it around it. If you must glue it to the TE then do not glue it more than about 1/2 or 3/4 inch forward of the aft edge of the TE. Just let it float off of the forward part of the TE. Looks MUCH nicer.
I will try to call Steve today and figure out how to post pictures so you can see my mistake and resolution.
Took the airtec through the primer phase and it really sands out nice. It does not get all gummed up or rubbery.

More to follow

Bill

OK sports fans, with the help of Dana, we now have pictures. Go to "Cub Driver Photo Albums" page six, last one and you will find "Smith Cub by Bill Rusk".
Photos of paint booth, flap debacle, etc.
For you guys building Smith Cubs this flap tip may help. Ailerons are the same also. Don't know about factory Cubs because it depends on the width and shape of the TE.

Party on Garth......Party on Wayne......


Bill

Which wing did you choose for your kit?

Landshort

I chose the round wing tips with 48 gal gas. As best I could tell the other wings don't give that much better slow speed performance, 1 or 2 knots and I greatly prefer the looks of the classic tips. If the squared tips gave a big performance advantage it might be worth the sacrifice in appearance. Obviously, appearance is strictly individual preference. Another factor driving most everything on the Cub is building for the 90% rule rather than the 10% rule. That is the one that says " What is 90% of your flying?" Answer for most of us is messing around the local area and getting the hamburger type thing. Example for me is the issue of dual doors. That left door might be nice when it is on floats (probably 30% of the time for me) and when I really need to dock on that side,(10% of 30%), so not very often, but the throttle will be in a uncomfortable position ALL of the time with dual doors. So it is not worth it to me to have poor ergonomics for the throttle for that one time a year event. One of the things I love about cubs is the way the controls just seem to fit and be in just the right place. It is a wonderfully comfortable plane to fly.
The door/throttle is just one example of many, and others may have other opinions but I do think whatever your opinion....build for what you will be doing MOST of the time.

Just my opinion

Bill

Thnx Bill, great input, I hadn't thought about the throttle location with two doors. Will rethink this....

In a perfect world we could go fly exactly what we want to build but that is quite often not an option.

That's the great thing about this site, gobs of information.

Best of luck with your project and I will be following along through your comments here.

Scott

On the subject of thottles, I'm putting Van's RV-8 thottles in mine. It'll take a little bit of engineering but not much. I ordered them directly from Vans which is quite a bit cheaper than Aircraft Spruce and they are beautiful. I got that tip from a friend who's put them in several cubs.

www.vansaircraft.com

They have two different types. One has throttle/prop/mixture and the other throttle/mixture. You can substitute the prop control for carb heat in you want. I went with just throttle/mixture because my fingers hit the other two levers on the triple control.

Just another option to consider.

Jay 8)