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handling question re VGs

JMBreitinger

JMBreitinger

Registered User
Minneapolis, MN
Our Super Cub is equipped with Micro vortex generators. It is the only airplane that I have ever flown that pitches up with the addition of flaps. Adding the final notch of flaps requires either a huge amount of trim or very heavy forward pressure on the stick in order to maintain the same 65 knot airspeed on approach.

Is this true of all Super Cubs or is it likely a function or the vortex generators?

I did a series of stalls, both with power on and off. With the power off, I never really did get the wing to break. With the stick back against the stop, the plane would settle into a mushing 5 - 600 foot per minute descent with a very slight buffet. Control authority remains suprisingly positive throughout the maneuver.

With the power on, it hangs there with an uncomfortably high angle of attack, again mushing along with a 300 or so foot per minute descent. When I did this solo and light, the airplane actually ran out of gas before it quit flying.

The prop is one of Jim Drometer's 82" 40 pitch wood props that he loaned us while our is being made. The airplane feels noticeably smoother and a bit lighter on the controls than it did with the metal cruise prop that came on the plane. That prop was in pretty rough shape after 20 years in Alaska so it may not be a perfect comparison.
 
Change your appoach speed to 45 MPH. Then slower until it behaves the way you want. A stock 94 does the sames thing. Just slow it down.
 
What do you guys like for approach speeds and configurations?

I have been hearing everything from 45 - 70. I have been using 65 slowing to 50 over the numbers, then holding it off until it won't fly any more. It is still flying at 40. It registers zero in the stall (my best guess is 35). If it is stalling at 35, 1.15 times is only 40. That seems too slow, particularly if there is any wind.

It has been most comfortable with half flaps (I only have two notches) but it sounds like that may be a function of my excessive airspeed.

I am used to flying an airplane that is very unforgiving of anything but the correct airspeed and that does not slow down quickly. If I come over the numbers at anything more than 75 in my Mooney, it floats forever. At 65, I am on the wrong side of the power curve.

The Super Cub, on the other hand accelerates and decelerates pretty nicely on command.
 
My suggestion would be to fly at different speeds at altitude and different angles of attack to establish where your plane stalls and is stable. You may want to add a rate of decent to mimic an approach. Different airplanes will register different airspeeds due to a lot of factors. Your plane is an individual and it's quirks need to be identified.pak
 
John,

You've discovered one of the great secrets of the STOL kit manufacturers: Once you increase the angle of incidence above a certain limit, the pitot tube no longer "sees" the relative wind, and the airspeed system reads zero. Does this mean the airplane is flying at zero airspeed? Nope. But it sure has a lot of folks convinced that these STOL kits take ten mph off their stall speed.

Take the airplane to altitude (2500 Plus), and slow it down until you feel the stall buffet. Do this for a number of flap and power settings. Note the feeling in the seat of your pants, the attitude with reference to the horizon, AND the indicated airspeed. If you have a GPS, note also the speed over the ground. You might want to run lines in different directions to compensate for wind.

Figure out which of these Speeds works and feels best for you. That's the speed you should be ar or at least near as you flare for landing. It's going to take a while for you to get the "feel" for what that all feels and looks like, and the airspeed indicator is sort of a guide to the beginner. You'll find that after a while, you're not even paying any attention to the airspeed, cause you can feel the airplane flying.

Play with the plane at altitude, then work from there. If the airspeed indicator says 12 at 2500 feet, in a landing attitude and the airplane isn't losing altitude, then who gives a rip whether it's really 37?

Your butt will tell you what this airplane's doing. Not so for the Mooney, maybe, but it is for the cub.

That, of course, is one of the reasons that they are fun.

MTV
 
handling question

How much speed ,if any did you lose when you went to the wood prop?
Doug
 
I am not sure. I did not fly it enough with the metal prop to have a good feel for how fast it was in cruise. Similarly, I did not fly it enough to really be able to compare climb performance.

It seems to true at 95 - 97 MPH now at 2400 RPM at 2000' MSL. At 2700 RPM, I was able to push it up to about 108 - 110 MPH.

What is definitely noticable is the relative smoothness.

We knew that we needed to replace the prop and had a chance to try this one. I liked it, so we bought it. In talking with others who have had more experience with a variety of props, I understand that this setup is most like the long Borer climb prop in terms of performance.
 
John, I also have Micro VGs installed, and have noticed that when I come in on final, just before touchdown, I run out of aft stick (plumb up against the seat) and cannot get the nose up high enough to stall out. This results in a sort of "wheel landing," even when my intention is to do a three point. I am coming in pretty slow (45 mph or less) when this happens. Suggestions, anyone???
 
trim

OK, gang... I've found that I prefer the plane be in trim at the touchdown speed, which allows me to plant the tailwheel firmly to avoid 'Mr. Toad's Wild Ride'....this means that I trim on downwind to 60mph clean, then slow down and add flaps on base and final to a touchdown (behind the curve, adding power) at 40 or a little below. This means that I'm holding considerable forward pressure at times on the approach, but it's worth it to be in trim at the touchdown. Also, you can't buy a good landing in a cub without holding (or restoring) a little power just before touchdown....
 
I notice a difference in landing when you compare Bushwheels against 8:50's? I find that at the lowest touchdown speed doing a modified (tail low) wheel landing with BW's and 3" ext. gear works great. That same technique with 8:50's will bang the tailwheel on first and I can't achieve the lowest airspeed on touchdown. Any comments?
 
If your landing power off you will run out of stick if you get much below 50. if you want to land slower than use power, if your running out of stick than use power, Wood props look nice and will save weight ,and smooth out engine vibrations. No match for a borer and if you fly it in the rain you can plan on refinishing it often. :eek:
 
Try leaving your trim neutral, You may have to muscle it on takeoff a bit but once you reduce power and add flaps it will feel pretty good especially if you are carrying a load. That is my two cents.
 
Oh yeah, one more thing. If you are wheel landing using tail low technique and are banging the tailwheel, chances are you are leveling off too high which causes you to use more back stick and tagging the tailwheel. The bigger tires and extended gear effectively close the gap between you and the ground at that level off height. That is my last two cents.
 
snicker...

I'm too cheap. I'm especially too cheap (and too old) to suffer from testoserone poisoning....
 
Carey Gray said:
You can't buy a good landing in a cub without power? Really? I'll sell you a couple--make me an offer. When I get to score landings, if power is used, the score is pretty low.--Carey
Click to expand...

Guess that'd make me a "lowboy"
 
My instructor when i got my training made me make every landing at idle,from down wind on, mostly to learn to judge winds and altitude he said anyone can fly it on the runway, then he said in his next breath, one of these days youll look over the cowl and the prop wont be turning and be out in the middle of nowhere then what, practicing the dead stick is the one that will save your rearend.
 
I was also taught to instruct that way in the 60's. I believe this is a holdover from the days when engine failures were common. It is still a good idea to practice emergency landing procedures now and then but for daily operations I like to use a gradual power reduction coordinated with flap increases. This allows for a more controlled approach that puts you on the numbers still carrying whatever bit of power is needed for the conditions. You will never be consistent on your touchdown point day to day using a no power approach as the winds, temps, and gross weight are always changing. The spot method of landing utilizing power, with practice, will enable you to touch down exactly where you want. I wouldn't disagree that you should be able to land in 300' (no power) but the question is........which 300 feet?
 
Of course its a good practice to practice power off landings, My point was that if you let your final approach speed get too slow you will run out of stick during your flare necessitating the use of power. If you plan on landing short say the first 200 feet you will have to slow down and use power. if your in any kind of moving air its almost certain that you will need the throttle. Someone asked a question about running out of stick during landing and my suggestion was that perhaps his speed was too slow. I hope i didnt ruffle any feathers. :eek:
 
Cubdrvr:
You will never be consistent on your touchdown point day to day using a no power approach as the winds, temps, and gross weight are always changing
Click to expand...

Forgive me as I've never flown a supercub...but people do this everyday in gliders.
 
I'm no great glider pilot nor am I some super bush pilot. But I'm darn sure better at landing the glider (<20 landings total in glider vs. hundreds in PA-12). I'm not sure if it's the extra motivation of not having any other choice or is it that wonderful spoiler handle.
 
Woodchuk.....
I guess my point was that in a powered aircraft you can't cut power opposite the numbers, use the same pattern with 25 kt winds today as you did in calm winds yesterday and be consistent. I am a novice (read green) glider pilot where, correct me if I'm wrong, you fly the approach from downwind to short final at over 1.5 times your cruising speed until you are assured of making the field, pop the spoilers and land. This was hard for me at first since it always gave me the impression I was going to overshoot the runway everytime. I had a blast learning the basics and wish there were someplace nearby me now that had a sailplane operation.
 
You guys are right about that spoiler handle...wonderful thing. It is possible to land without using it on calm days, but in a gusty situation I wouldn't want to try it. I can understand the need to use power in the approach on gusty days. However, with steady wind glider pilots are generally taught to factor the wind into the approach (flying closer in to the airport or adjusting your pattern entry altitude). I think many glider pilots may also be more aware of the wind conditions in general. I know a lot of power pilots (not all) who would never think to do adjust their pattern, instead relying on the application of power. I guess that was my only point.

I also fly at a class G airport, so I'm free to fly the pattern just about anyway I want.
 
What works for me is to set the plane up before the approach with some nose down trim then add your flaps as needed for a good rate of decent. With VGs i simply ride the plane to the surface and add just a little power to help stop the decent just before touch down. Forget looking at the airspeed indicator it won't register right anyway at that low speed just feel what your plane is doing through that sensor God gave you that is located just below your belt line.
 
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