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Experimental: Dan's D&E Wings Discussion

Bugs66

Bugs66

Registered User
Spokane WA
Link to pictures: HERE

Dan, those pictures are great! Thank you! Looks like good work to me!

Here are my first questions:

1. What kind of primer are you using? Is that the Montana water based stuff by chance? I was thinking of using that.

2. Does the D&E riblet wing change the pulley geometry on the fuselage?

3. What size table did you build it on? Did you use a jig?
 
Dan when I looked at your pictures, I did not see any drag bracing in the tank area. How does D & E handle that? Also how many ribs total per wing, and do you also use nose ribs, or just a heavier leading edge?

Looks like the ribs rivet on to the spar with some type of clip. Is that correct?

Frank
 
D&E Wings..

Could one use these wings with any of the finished experimental fuselages, like Smith, without making any welding changes to accomodate different aileron/flap cable angles. It would be a shame to have to weld on a powder coated fuselage, and have to chromate that spot.
Also, has any owner of a complete aircraft reported on those marvelous stated performance figures?
Has anybody inquired as to the cost of a wing kit? Is it possible to obtain them pre-assembled? These wings look great.


Mike
 
Re: D&E Wings..

CptKelly said:
...
Has anybody inquired as to the cost of a wing kit? ...
Click to expand...


$7100 for both wings including flaps and ailerons. Ernie does not assemble them anymore. He includes a builders manual.

I don't believe anything changes as far as fittings on the fuselage. They should mate up with a normal SC fuselage. Maybe Dan can verify. You can also call Ernie.

Bugs
 
"Spring" landing gear shock system......

Does anyone out there use the "spring" landing gear shock system? It looks like it would provide less travel than the bungee type, and possibly be harsher in contact with the ground. Comments?

Mike
 
The primer is PPG dp48, The pulleys are set up like a PA12. My fuselage is widened 4" so I will run the aileron cable up the rear door post instead of the front like the 2+2 plans show.I don't know if a supercub pulley system would work.No jig or table , two level sawhorse's and after the ribs are riveted to the spar it is squared with the dragwires.It has no nose ribs and uses .020 leading edge. I bent a 3/8 90 on the top of the leading edge to help prevent oilcanning. The plans dont call for it, but most other wings do. 16 ribs per side 12 in centers or you can lengthen to a 17 ft wing. The ribs have a right angle on each spar attach point where 3 solid rivets go thru the center rib flange, spar and nose or tail rib flange.I will post a incomplete rib to show this better.The spars are on 31" centers which I believe is the same as other cubs. If so they should go right on. However the 66" chord will have the flap trailing edge further back on the fuselage so the upper structure wont be exactly the same? The Smith supercub website shows they have spring gear instead of bungees. Less drag than bungees will increase speed no telling how much! Has anyone else widened a 2+2 fuselage? I'm not sure what windshield I can use. I believe a 172 will work.
 
I also used PPG aluminum etching primer before the DP48. If you look at picture 394 it shows the 3 solid rivets thru the prebent rib flange.
 
The birdcage of the Super Cub fuse may need some alteration/fairing to match the profile of the Riblett airfoil.
 
Dan, when you say there are no nose ribs are you referring to the ailerons and flaps? Does the aluminum on the bettom of the tank bay take the place of the drag/anti-drag wires or drag tube? Nice job. I too use white primer. It is amazing how bright it is inside the wing after covering it. Helps make inspections easier. Do you know what Earnie uses to form his leading edges? Nice shape, I hate the shape on the Univair leading edges.
 
Steve, The aileron/flap extruded LE does not have any noseribs. The wing does not have any FALSE nose ribs, that was not real clear in my post. Yes the 6061 .040 bottom tank cover replaces the drag/antidrag wires.I was surprised how much the wing was stiffened with the bottom cover in place,Earnies website, D&E aircraft, lists stall of 30mph, cruise 130mph, top speed 140, take off 100-150 ft.gross weight 2400 lbs with additional wing bracing I didn't get. Its a high lift, low drag ribblett 30-613.5 airfoil. I don't know how he bends the LE, call him he likes to talk. He is retired FAA and helped with experimental aircraft regs. He was an FAA supporter of homebuilders.
 
The D&E leading edges are .025, not .020 as I stated above. I was installing two sections tonight and noticed .025 printed on the aluminum.
 
Spoke to Ernie again. Here are some updates:

  1. Price: $8195 for 66" chord ribblet wing kit. Possible cash discount. $6686 for stock Cub wing kit, no cash discount. All include flaps and ailerons.
  2. Pulley geometry. Because the ribblet wing has all internal cables, the stock Cub aileron pulley in the fuselage needs to be moved rearward to accomodate the new geometry. Ernie supplies the drawings for this.
  3. Rigging. Ernies says his wing has no washout. He prefers no more than 1 degree of dihedral.
  4. Fairings. Because the ribblet wing has a slightly higher profile, you have to fabribcate wing fairings in place. There will be a slight drop from wing to fuselage because of the taller airfoil. Some fabrication also needs to be done to mate the leading edge to the windshield.

I am still trying to decide between stock cub wing and ribblet. The ribblet performance sure sounds good.

Bugs
 
I picked up my wing kit from D&E yesterday. What a great guy Ernie is! I went with the regular Cub wing. This wing builds like the Riblet however. Has the same aileron/flap bell crank system, so I guess I'll need to change my pulley geometry from stock.

I have some questions for Dan or anyone else who is building Ernies wing:

1) Are you building the 17' or 16' wing? There seems to be a conflict in the manual as to the rib spacing.
2) Which metal primer did you use and where did you get it? I was thinking about trying a waterborne product from APS.
3) What size rivets did you use on the rib flanges?
4) What size pop rivets did you use on the skins?
5) Did you squeeze or drive the rivets?
6) Lessons learned? What would you do different?

Thanks,

Bugs
 
The biggest problem I had was in aligning the nose rib, center rib and tail rib and drill through the spar so the holes would be centered in the nose rib or tail rib. I finally took the ribs as a set of nose, center and tail ribs which I clamped the nose rib to the center rib and useing the predrilled center rib as a guide to drill the nose and tail rib as a numbered set. Then clamp the center rib to the spar and again using the predrilled holes to drill thru the spar. that way things lined up real well. I am building the 16 foot wing. Be sure the hinges on the flap/ailerons don't end up in line with a wing rib as the hanger brackets will then be in the wrong spot. I bought my project with the flaps and ailerons finished and was lucky. Try to get the hinge brackets between ribs midway. but check where the compression members and aileron bellcrank flap brackets etc. are. I'll get back to you on the size of rivets. I did use dome head solid rivets instead of flush rivets the manual part numbers suggest. I believe that was a wrong part number in the manual. I used PPG etching primer and DP48 white epoxy primer on the alum. and DP48 on the steel parts.
 
Saw where several of you are using a water-based primer. Any problem with it lifting or staining under Polybrush?
 
Dan why go with the 32 gal belly tank? Wouldn't the 18 gal w/ 50#dry storage be a better choice?
 
Bugs, The DP48 won't adhere to the aluminum worth a darn unless you etch primer first. I used ms470ad5 rivets for the spar/rib attachment.I used ad41bs 1/8 in. for the leading edge and trailingedge also. You will need about 800 of the pop rivets.I bucked most of the solid rivets. I did squeeze the 1/8 in flush rivets on the upper and lower rib overlaps.
 
Steve Pierce said:
I've seen too many corroded wings in my life. I etch, alodine and epoxy prime everything.
Click to expand...

Steve,
Which product do you use for the epoxy prime? So when you say "everything", that includes all ribs, compression members, spars, and what else?

Question, how do you etch and alodine a 16ft spar? One idea I had was to use the crate they came in and line with plastic to hold the solutions.

Bugs
 
Dan2+2 said:
Bugs, The DP48 won't adhere to the aluminum worth a darn unless you etch primer first. I used ms470ad5 rivets for the spar/rib attachment.I used ad41bs 1/8 in. for the leading edge and trailingedge also. You will need about 800 of the pop rivets.I bucked most of the solid rivets. I did squeeze the 1/8 in flush rivets on the upper and lower rib overlaps.
Click to expand...

Thanks Dan. I'm sure I'll come up with more questions. I'll be talking to Ernie again today also.

Bugs
 
I have been using Stits white epoxy primer cause it is available locally. Am going to see what else is avilable. As far as etching and alodining spars I put them on saw horses and use a commercial grade spray bottle and sponge. Doesn't take much and has worked on several spars so far.
 
Anyone have experience with the AFS waterborne products?
http://www.aircraftfinishing.com/metal-aircraft.htm

I have a friend building an RV7 and he applies their:
1. High strength cleaner
2. Metal etch
3. Primer cleaner

Although not quite as scratch resistant as epoxy prime, he likes it a lot and the cleanup is a breeze and is safe.

Bugs
 
I have one of those big plastic tubs from Home Depot that you mix concrete in. I spray all my little parts in the tub and mix things around in the stuff in the bottom. Seems to work good. I guess if I did enough of it I could have a tank just for alodining and one for etching.
 
The local PPG dealer is a friend of mine and insists that with his product I just needed to clean with a degreaser and then his etching primer and epoxy primer. I have also been told that if you aren't close to salt air you do not need to prime. But it was easy enough on sawhorses for the spars and laid out on boxes and tables for the ribs and misc. pieces. I decided it was cheap insurance. And they look good white plus Steve Pierce and others brag about how much easier it is to see inside the wing during inspection.
 
I noticed some differences between my D&E wing and Dan's.

1. My flap/aileron D sections are completely closed. Dan's are open and use hinge spacers. I will have to cherry rivet my flap rib flanges on the inner ribs because there is no way to buck that far in the D section.

2. I have fuel tank shelf supports that are bolted to the front and rear spar, then the fuel tank is then bolted to the shelf supports. You drill through the fuel tank flange, shelf support, and tank shear plate. No fuel tank straps on mine.
 
Dan,
When you were installing the LE skins, did you drill and continuously pop rivet them on or did you disassemble, deburr, reassemble, rivet? The manual isn't real clear.

I was thinking about pre-drilling the rib caps for the LE skins and then match drill from inside through the skins. Think this would work ok?

Bugs
 
Bugs, I did not deburr I drilled and then pop riveted. My arms are too big to reach inside the leading edge ribs to match drill except for the two closest to the end. Be sure to tie off the nose ribs before tightening the leading edge as the nose ribs will move around a little if you don't. I used flat waxed rib stitching cord. I used 5 5/8 and 12 1/4 rib spacing on my wings as an answer to your pm.
 
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