Restricted catagory Supercub

The FAA is telling my friend that his pa-18a used for spraying cannot be recertified and can only be used in that restricted category only. They say that there is no way to remove this restriction. Does anyone know a way to get this cub back into general use?

Jerry,

There are lots of guys on this site flyin 18A's so I bet it can be done!

sj

Jerry.........most of the -A's I know flying aroung have a dual category airworthiness. I started spraying in an 18A and when the season was over I put in in Standard category..........used Restricted when spraying. Kinda the best of both worlds. The cub I have now is an 18A certified in both categories.
There were however some earlier 18A's that were certified only in the Restricted category.......I also had one of those ( had the single stick torque tube). I would assume these could be converted to Standand but don't know the process.
You might check with OKC to verify whether the airworthiness is single or dual category.......sometimes papers get lost.
If you run into a snag with the FAA gimme a shout.........I've got a friend who may help.

Jerry Gaston said:

The FAA is telling my friend that his pa-18a used for spraying cannot be recertified and can only be used in that restricted category only. They say that there is no way to remove this restriction. Does anyone know a way to get this cub back into general use?

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This can't possibly be our friendly Helena FAA ??? There must be more to it than that. They must be giving him a specific reason aren't they. Have him look up S/N's eligible for the standard airworthiness certificate per TCDS 1A2. If the number is in there, it is eligible. They are probably seeing that it was certified under AR7 which is Restricted only. But it is still eligible to be certified under 1A2 if the serial number applies. Maybe Gabi can weigh in on this, I think he just got his done.

I got an 18A frame in the shop to rebuild. Someone cut the rear spar carrythru out and was flying it that way. When converting to standard and removing the hopper and stuff what do you do structurally? It is going to need some tubing replaced so while it is a bare frame I want to do everything that will make it a practicle SC (X-brace, inverted dog leg, reinforced tail brace). Any suggestions are welcome.

Steve, Take a look at my photo album. My cub is a 18A and we removed the superstructure and replaced it with tubing like an straight 18. We also did all the other mods at the same time, X brace, 3rd seat, extended baggage, beefed up the tail, ect.

Joe........how's the new bird running? Have you got a few hours on it by now? I'm looking forward to seeing it.

Steve:
I am also in the middle of rebuilding an 18A. Altho it wasn't chopped up like yours I wound up changing lots of tubing. I was very close to converting to the standard cub top deck but given our current situation of no major structural alterations without engineering etc. I decided to stick with the original. Carefully check and plan on changing all of the hopper bay tubing as you will commonly find internal corrosion caused by moisture getting in through all of the riv-nut holes. This moisture will also make its way to the rear vertical and diagonal tubes of the hopper bay just ahead of the header tank and will usually corrode out the lower ends.

I have the original metal hopper cover and reinforcement of which I wanted to do away with and have always X braced it and gone the F.A. route. There is no STC for this exact change. I had to do a lot of leg work to come up with an STC to work from. There are only two in existence that I could come up with.
One is by Jake Bryant and involves constructing tubing inside the "box" that is the same as a standard 18. This is undesirable as you loose all of the extra baggage area etc.
The other is by Flannagan. I found out from this site that it is now owned by CubCrafters. I contacted them and Earl spent a lot of time locating all of the original drawings (thought to be lost for awhile) and getting copies made for me. CC were a great help and are very appreciated. This STC replaces the hatch with 5/8 tubing running from the center of the rear spar carry through tube, back to the aft corners of the "box". It also calls for installing plexiglass over the entire structure. I don't desire the glass on this project so with the FAAs blessing I increased the tubing spec from 5/8 to 3/4 and some lateral channels for supporting the glass to 5/8 x .049 tube. (future shoulder harness attachment area) They also approved deleting the installation of the glass and staying with the original windows / covering with fabric, etc. This has been field approved. Could not have been done without the STC to work from.
I also inverted the dog leg but it isn't as useful on the A as it is on a standard cub with the large baggage as the rear floor is on the longerons on the A model. (I like this for varied reasons) I am installing Atlees baggage.
I purchased the third seat STC from Roger Borer and his removable cross bar STC. It is hinged. Thought I would give this type a try as my 110 lb lab would knock the other style out if I didn't put pins in to hold it down.
I am submitting many more 337s for FAA consideration on alterations. So will let you know what happens.

As to the fellow with the Restricted cub. I have done several conversions on cubs in pure restricted category back to standard, but it takes a detailed conformity inspection and must be squeaky clean / legal but not impossible. Looking at the eligible serial numbers on each TC you find that many if not all of the 18A serial numbers overlap; therefore eligible to go either way.

My experience in converting the superstructure on an 18A to that of a 18 is no big deal. Piper built them both ways and you are simply conforming the superstructure to the other model.

After re-reading this post it needs to be made clear that the change has to be done via a 337 and field approval.

djfraudman said:

My experience in converting the superstructure on an 18A to that of a 18 is no big deal. Piper built them both ways and you are simply conforming the superstructure to the other model.

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True statement, IF, the parts manual shows the "A" model can be configured either way... Otherwise, it's a little hard to show conformity to an approved document...

How did you handle the signoff/approval for the changes?

True statement, IF, the parts manual shows the "A" model can be configured either way... Otherwise, it's a little hard to show conformity to an approved document...

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What you are doing is showing conformity to the drawings for a PA-18, ie superstructure, flap pulley and turtle deck. Are you suggesting that the FAA would not approve, without engineering, what Piper has already engineered??

Oops...

Oops...

Supercubber
No standard PA-18 came from the factory equipped for pest control. It had to have been modified. (or someone converted an A model to a standard 18 which gives it an identity crisis)
He will need to go through the same type conformity inspection. Anything that was added for pest control is removed and everything is put back to a standard / approved configuration ( meets the type certificate and any applicable STCs) . If he passes then they will issue a new airworthiness cert.

If anyone ended up being confused with my remarks about converting an "A" model to a straight 18, be advised they were predicated on doing the conversion via a 337 and field approval. But, a field approval should not be a problem, or require any engineering for the reasons previously stated.

DJ
You are correct in that it takes a field approval. I have ran into some that would say the top deck is a Piper part and "good to go...just weld it on".
I have discussed this with the Feds and getting a field approval to install / reconfigure the fuselage to a PA-18 top deck should not be a problem using Pipers drawings etc. If you convert the entire fuselage to a PA-18 (leave no A model stuff in it, then there is a procedure whereby you can get the model designation changed (to avoid confusion down the road when someone sees an 18A data plate and everything looks otherwise).

In my earlier statement about not wanting to "go there" was the "uncertainty" of engineering requirements. I wanted to move along on this project and this approach could stall things out, and I would also want it to be either a standard 18 all the way or an 18A. I personally prefer the A models versatility. (another subject). If I had not located a workable STC for the Ag Hatch I would have converted. ( they would have allowed an X brace with a "legacy" field approval but that is unacceptable)

I have also discussed with them replacing the entire fuselage with a standard 18 fuselage as there are no new replacements for 18As. I was not given a clear answer. Its the parts book eligibility thing. They were unsure at the time if an entire change would require an STC or not but I would definitely advise anyone to seek a field approval or clarification on this before buying a new fuselage. Again I have talked to people that "just do it" and call it a replacement part. (could easily come back to haunt you!)

cubpilot2 said:

Supercubber
No standard PA-18 came from the factory equipped for pest control. It had to have been modified.

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I thought some of the early 18A's were build solely in the restricted category.

Probably were some PA-18As in only Restricted only category if they left the factory with a spray rig installed. May have been a customer choice.
But to the best of my knowledge all (standard type) PA-18s would have left in Standard / Utility cat. The 18A model was the only one designed for aerial application. Many PA-18s (standard type) were later converted with internal spray tanks (did several of these myself) or Sorensen belly rigs and were then placed in Restricted.

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All,

I just had my 18A recertified by the FAA here in Texas from Restricted to Standard. The plane is a 1955 PA-18A originally certifed and sold from the factory by Piper Aircraft Company as a duster. It was certified restricted under air worthyness certificate AR-7. The FAA gave me a standard air worthyness certificate to operate the aircrafter under provisions of 1A-2.

The meeting with the FAA was straight forward, professional, and absolutly free! It took the FAA about 2 hours to complete the paperwork review and inspect the plane. They confiscated my old Restricted certificate and gave me a new Standard certificate on the spot.

Gabi

Thanks Gabi.
Sounds like the system is still alive and working.

T.J. is also correct. Piper also has a service letter explaining it the same as the owners manual. S2D sent me a copy awhile back.
As long as you got the standard airworthiness to go with it you are home free.

T.J. Hinkle said:

As far as I know, most Owners Handbook are Approved Data and if you do it this way no further approval is necessary.

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And I'll throw this in for further discussion... Most Owners Handbooks/Manuals are NOT approved... Most Aircraft Flight Manuals (AFM) and some recent Handbooks have FAA Approved sections... The Flight Manual/Operator Handbook craze started in 1978... Some aircraft, the early 180/185 for one, didn't have AFMs, but the required placards listed in the TCDS are approved... Now, I'm sure this is as clear as mud...

cubpilot2 said:

...(future shoulder harness attachment area)...

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Where did you end up attaching the shoulder harness in your -18A? Mine has a 1" +/- angle welded along the back of the cross-tubing, so a clamp of any sort over the tubing would mean cutting a slot in the angle. Thanks, Nick.