Anyone out there installed the wips w/gross wt. increase kit

[nanook]

Hello: Cubdrivers, need some help making up my mind what floats to install on my 77 PA-18-160hp. Have flown the 2000 edo's and really liked them, but the round tops tend to crack and no gross wt. increase/no 160hp STC. Anyway recovering the cub this winter and need to decide. I would love to hear from someone who has flown both wips and edo's with comments on performance differences.

[mvivion]

Nanook,

In my experience, the EDO's will outperform the Wipline floats. That said, when you buy the Wip floats, you get the 2000 pound gross weight kit as well. The GW increase also applies to wheels, so it is a good deal.

The Wip floats are well made, they have much larger float lockers than the EDOs.

If it's new floats you're buying, I wouldn't even hesitate, I'd buy the Wips in a heartbeat. The performance difference isn't that great in any case.

You'll like the floats in either case, but the gross weight increase is a good deal in any case. IF you ever go to sell the plane, it'll certainly increase the market value, and you'll never have to sweat a fed ramp party.

Mike V

[nanook]

Thanks Mike, You make some good points. I've heard Gov. pilots state that the Edo's would get out of the water quicker, but the peace of mind factor on ramp checks is worth something.

[wilbur]

What experience do you float users have with PK's in general, or PK 1800's ? Have the set that came on my SC. Haven't flown them, and my float time was in a Super Cruiser 25 yrs ago.
Wilbur

[mvivion]

Wilbur,

The PeeKays do okay, in my limited experience (as in one Cub on a set). They work okay in most cases, if you keep the all up weight within reason.

In my experience, there just isn't any float that'll out perform an EDO 2000, though.

Mike V

[Ken Grindlay]

Wilbur
I've got the PK 1800s on my 150hp sc. I opperate on big salt water with few problems, providing I stay out of big swells. They seem to be pretty tough floats.
The down side. There is no STC for hatches, so you have to depend on agent Smith having a functioning brain, and the will to use it. The plane sits on PKs in level flight attitude. Most other floats are rigged a bit nose up. This puts your prop a little closer to the water, which can't be good. I have seen guys build up the front with washers, not sure if that's kosher or not.
If you plan to use them on smooth water and don't need hatches you'll probably like them a lot. Being smaller, they are lighter, and faster. You don't have to be a grizzled bush pilot to get off quick at gross with them.
Ken

[wilbur]

Thanks for the info, Having no experience with them had me curious. Probably won't put them on in the near future, since there's not much water for straight floats down here. Will leave them hanging in the shop for now. The airplane came from the boundry waters in northern Minn. and the past owner was happy using them for his personal fishing trips into Canada.
Wilbur

[Crash]

The Baumanns are the best of Edo and the best of a Wip float. Double fluted, concaved bottoms (like Edo) (Wip's are flat like an Aqua) so they don't need spray rails, big float lockers and flat tops (like Wips). They displace about 200 lbs more water then a Edo. The tails dont sink when you walk out on them like an Edo. They will also beat an Edo out of the water and cruise 5 mph faster. If you want the best straight float for a Cub today then it would be Baumann's. Crash

[mvivion]

Crash,

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you on the performance end of it. Now, bear in mind that I regularly operate on Baumanns, and think they are a great float, but, in my experience on at least one airplane that went from EDO's to Baumanns, the performance wasn't as good.

Problem is that generally if you are dealing with an EDO airplane, that then becomes equipped with Baumanns, there's generally a reason the EDOs are being replaced, ie: they are in bad shape. Sure a new float will out perform one with wrinkled bottoms, etc.

On the other hand, if you compare two different airplanes, as we all know, a Cub is not a Cub, there is so much difference between performance of these airplanes that a comparison like this is pretty much meaningless.

As I said, I really like the Baumanns, performance, their hatches. But the little workmanship items are pretty lame, frankly and will take some work to correct.

I'll stick with my claim that the EDOS will outperform any of them at comparable weights, but I'd still go with the Wips for a new float simply because of the GW increase. Also, Wip has better quality control and features on their floats than Baumann does.

Like Baumanns come with generic diagonal wires, which have to be cut to length, no up stops on water rudders, the rudder lift pulleys are way too close to metal, which the cables then saw thru, etc, etc,

All stuff that can be dealt with, but why pay $25 large, then have to fix a whole bunch of cheesy stuff?

Mike

[Frank T]

Order some Replacement Parts from Wip and Baumann....look at the invoice, then tell us again which one is better.

[Frank T]

Anyone here flown the Aerocet 2200? They are a scaled down from the profiles used on Edo 3430's but have been a little heavy. I understand they are working on a weight reduction program to drop about 30# from them. I know they are only for experimental use at this time but it looks like a real nice product.

[Cubus Maximus]

Mike,

I have to agree with Crash about the Baumann's for the reasons he stated above. You make good points regarding the EDO and Whip but in addition to more reasonable parts costs (where Baumann also shines), I have found that in a stiff wind I have far more directional control with the Baumann (must be a combo of better hull design and larger water rudders) than with the Whip. I REALLY like this 8) It's the same feeling as having huge Brembo disk brakes on your old truck when one of God's larger critters suddenly lunges from the ditch across the road at night.

Also, when landing in rough water, the Baumann seems to cut it much better and allows for a smoother touchdown in the same conditions (or less!) that rattle my teeth with the Whip. (I've only flown EDO 2000's once in smooth conditions but have time on old EDO 2440 USAF floats that pound like the Whip. I don't know if that translates at all to the smaller EDO.)

Brad

[Frank T]

If you take a close look at the Baumann Bottoms you might notice that they look a LOT like a shorter Edo 2960 bottom. That might be because they come off the same Stretch Forms Baumann has to make replacement bottoms for the Edo's. BTW...Baumann used to make the Stretch Formed Bottoms for the Wip 3730's and 6000's, for Wipaire.

[mvivion]

Guys,

As I noted, I like the Baumanns and their performance. I'll still put an EDO 2000 up against any of these little floats for pure performance issues.

The Baumanns take considerably longer to install, labor wise than the Wips, cause you have to cut and fit some stuff that Wip provides already ready to install. This, of course, is a one time deal.

Take a look at the pulleys over which the water rudder retract cables run, on the sterns of the floats on a Baumann float. They will be eating their way through the metal loops which hold the pulleys in place, because of the angle of the cable pull.

There are no up stops on the rudders. Over time, this will result in damage to the stern of the float. Further, I've had the rudders stick in the up position, because they don't have any up stops, and they jammed into part of the rigging back there. Now how well do they steer?

Again, all this is stuff you can fix, with time and money. Course, if you get the feds involved, you may not get it fixed, since it isn't in the original design.

Look, folks, the truth is that ALL of these floats perform EXTREMELY well on the Cub. We are talking differences of a few feet in takeoff performance, and yeah, I know that a few feet can ruin your day, but.....that is why we have pilots.

I agree that the Baumann float performs better than the Wip. But with the Wip, you get the gross weight increase, and frankly, there aren't many Super Cubs out there on floats that can legally be flown with two 200 pounders and any significant gas UNLESS they have the gross weight increase. Further, the GW increase translates over to wheels as well.

Wip went the right route when they approved the Cub on floats. They offer the value added feature of the gross weight increase.

And, if the Wips don't steer, I'd work on the water rudders, cause the ones I've operated work just fine, even in big winds. Certainly as well as the Baumanns. This is frequently a characteristic of a rigging issue.

Mike V

[Frank T]

Mike

I totally agree that all the small floats perform well on a Supercub. Put a couple of logs under a 180 Cub and it would probably get of the water. All the installs have some degree of compromise, it's the nature of the beast. The Wips were designed to be inexpensive to build (flat bottoms and skins) and provide Wip with a profit. Baumanns are definitely more labor intensive to build and they spend more on corrosion proofing than the aluminum costs, but they operate with lower overhead and still make a profit.

The Wip Gross Weight Increase is a HUGE advantage, and is no doubt why Wip has been outselling everything else. Gross Weight limitations are definitely why Baumann has not certified their Amphib on the 18. It was a great marketing move for Wip to approve ONLY THEIR FLOATS for the 2000#GW, and it cost a TON to do, so a guy can't fault them for wanting to sell all the floats they can.

There are other Gross Weight Increases is the works that will give float operators more options and higher legal weights.

BTW the Wip 2000# STC also applies to 18's with 13 rib wings, so while extra wing ribs may contribute to wing strength, it's the spar doubler that counts.

[mvivion]

Frank

I concur with everything you say,

By the way, the EDO's have flat bottoms, too.

Mike

[Crash]

I bought my Baumanns with 20 hours TT on them for $15K in Alaska. They had been on my type of airplane so I didn't see what the other guy had to go through. When we installed them on my plane the first time it took 2 hours to go from wheels to taking off on water. I haven't seen the quality issues you bring up. Mine are as tight as a tick (no leaks) the baggage compartments hold everything you want to take with you and they are smooth in and out of rough water. I like them and the price was right. Crash

[Frank T]

Fresh Water Displacement at 100%

Straight Floats

Wip 2100's 2323#
Aerocet 2200's 2230#
Baumann 2100's 2216#
Edo 2000's 2000#

Amphibs

Wip 2100A's 2185#
Aerocet NA
Baumann 2150A 2140#
Edo NA

A lot of reserve boyancy in the newer floats.

[mvivion]

Crash,

For that price, I'd totally agree with you. Take a close look at the metal "hoops" that hold the pulleys which are on the sterns of the floats, over which the water rudder retract cables run. I'll bet you'll find the cables are sawing through that metal "hoop". Not a huge deal, but a really dumb design, as is the lack of rudder up stops.

As you say, though, for the price they can't be beat. They do perform well, and I, like you, really like the lockers.

The other thing, which is sorta weird about the Baumanns is that they are faster than any other float through the air, that I've seen. As much as 5 mph on some planes. I can't explain it, since they look like really chunky little guys, but....

Congratulations on getting a good deal,

Mike

[Sgt. Rock]

Frank,
I talked with a guy at the Fedex hanger aircraft show in Anchorage a year ago this past May who had flown a supercub on aerocet 2200. He couldn't say enough about them, he only flew it once in calm conditions but he had extensive experience on edo's for comparison. He commented that they were very slippery, came on to step very fast, and in his estimate, would beat an edo equiped sc out of the water, with equal load, by 25% to 30% reduced water run. The only thing negative he had to say was on landing they didn't want to come off step when throttle was closed. He didn't say what speed he was touching down at. I would think they would settle in fine if they contacted the water just above stall speed instead of being driven on at 60 or so-- you know how lax us float drivers can get on touchdown speeds. Anyhow thought I'd pass along this second hand info for what it is worth.
Rock.

[Crash]

My PA-14 on 31 Bushwheels cruises at 100 mph @ 2400 rpm, on the Baumanns it cruises @ 105 mph at 2400 rpm. It's stable like a C-185 when its on floats and bounces around the sky like a PA-18 when on Bushwheels. Crash

[Frank T]

Mike

The Baumanns are faster because of the angle they are mounted in relationship to the angle of incidence of the wing. Closer to the same angle=less drag. Years ago Wip did some playing around with a jack screw on the nosegear mount of a 206 on 3730's to be able to adjust the float angle in flight. They could make it get off quicker and cruise faster by changing the angle. Given the history of jack screws, I'll take mine bolted solid.

Frank

[mvivion]

Frank,

Yes, I figured that was likely part of it, but the Baumanns and EDO's use the same angle of incidence on the Husky, I believe, and the Baumanns are still faster.

I'd totally agree with avoiding jackscrew gear legs.

An old trick for 180's on 2870 EDO's was to move the rear vertical strut mountings down one hole (about an inch), which gave the plane a more nose up incidence. Didn't change the cruise speed a lot, but got out of the water a lot quicker.

I understand there are a couple issues with the Aerocet floats: It costs just about as much to build a set of glass floats for a Cub as for a Beaver, since the materials are cheap, but labor is virtually the same. So, for a certificated float, it probably isn't worth it to produce and certificate a little float.

Also, the bigger the float, the closer metal and glass are in weight. On the smaller floats, the glass floats weigh more than the metal ones, and of course, on those airplanes, any excess weight is bad.

The folks at Aerocet make really good products, but I wonder if they'll ever certificate a small float. I sure hope so, cause their floats work well.

As to the "slickness" of the glass floats on landing, I heard this forever in reference to the 3500's and it simply isn't an issue. As the man says, just land the dang thing at a LANDING speed, and it settles off the step almost exactly like a metal float does.

Mike

[Frank T]

Mike

Yep your right about the labor on the Aerocets. They are working on some ways to reduce the labor going into their floats that would also drop the weight down to close that of the Aluminum Floats. They hope to be able to build some sets of the 2200's over the winter. I could live with a little extra weight, since the Aerocets just don't leak. Sounds like they may go for Certification after the Beaver Floats are done if they lick the weight and labor issues. They told me they would build me a set for about $16,000, with the mounting gear for a cub. Experimental, but that works for me.

Frank

[cub_driver]

Frank

I talked with Aerocet about two years ago I was told the same as you that they would work on the certification of the 2200 after they have completed the certification for the Beaver straight and amphib floats. Did they give you any Idea when they would start the certification work on the 2200? The Aerocets would be my top choice when they are certified.

Cub_Driver

[mvivion]

My understanding is that they are building the 2200 for the experimental market (mostly the GlasStar) right now. So what's the hangup for building one for an experimental Cub?

If you need struts, I'm guessing you could work that out pretty easily, with a bit of study.

Mike V

[Frank T]

The main thing seems to be they need to get the labor cost down so they can make a few dollars on them, and get the weight down. Sounds like they are getting a handle on that. They have only built about 15-16 sets of the 2200's to date. Probably because of the extra weight penalty, and the fact they have a hard time making money on them. The labor in the 2200's and their 3500's is about the same. I guess I'd be building 3500's instead too.

They do have the attach system figured out on the PA-18 and have done some installs on experimental 18's so that's not a problem. Sounded like they have something in the works that might speed up the Certification, but we didn't discuss a timeframe. Right now they are selling their new Amphib as fast as they can build them.

[Big AK]

In response to the topic title. Yes, I've done the Wip gross up kit on the -18. It's a good thing. If you guys haven't seen the method of rib/spar junction beef-up, let me tell you, ALL the Cub ribs could benefit from this type of attachment. As for the rear spar upper cap beef-up, its seems a bit funky to cherry-max rivet the machined cap-doubler to the top of the spar, but I'm not the engineer that designed it, and it made it through the Cert. process for the STC, so, whatever.

Back to the Aerocet's, no one has yet mentioned the advantage Aerocets posess in the event of an unintentional grounding, like step-taxiing onto a gravel bar. The Aerocets have saved more than a few a/c that have slid nicely on the gravel/sand/tundra/willows/alder that would have tripped up and flipped an aluminum float-equipped a/c. Some will argue that in a heavy crash the aluminum floats will absorb much of the impact energy. True, but what's the tradeoff?

I've no experience with the 2200 Aerocet, but have seen 3500's on a 206 that have stayed together in a dead-stick landing/slide up on the tundra incident. Any aluminum float would have broken and caused the a/c to be totaled. The Aerocets flexed and slid on the tundra and stayed attached to the 206. A new engine and helicopter ride to bigger water, and the thing was again flying. Plus, very easy to repair dings, IF you get 'em. I heard of another set on a 206 that got loose from it's tiedown and floated 3 miles over the night down a lake shoreline in 4 foot shorebreak. You know a metal floated a/c would be on the bottom of the lake. The Aeroceted a/c was step-taxiied back to it's tiedown, several small patches were applied (fiberglass work) and the a/c worked out the rest of the day.

'Nuff said, if you can handle the extra weight.

DMC

[Frank T]

DMC

Explain the rib to spar beef up. I know about the spar doubler, lift strut, fuselage and gear beef ups, but the rib to spar thing is new to me.

[nanook]

Big AK: Could you elaborate on the rib to spar attach beef-up? This spring a buddy and I took a set of aerocet 3500's off a 185 and put them on a 206. The kit came from aerocet with the new struts etc... We had to talk to them a half a dozen times on missing pages in the instructions, struts drilled the wrong bolt size, pulley brackets not installed etc... It was hard to believe that kit made it out the door at aerocet. Their service help was very good though, but it didn't help the customer's bill for all the extra time involved. I'd like to thank everyone for their info input on this subject. In the old days I would of had to wander miles of airport ramps and drink untold cups of coffee to get this much information.

[Cubus Maximus]

Hey Crash - tried the stick neutral takeoff deal in a Husky on Wip amphibs this morning. Didn't work well with this design. Works great with the Baumanns though.

Brad

[Frank T]

Wip now has their updated float installation weights and arms posted in the service letter area of thier website.

[Fortysix12]

What an awesome thread.