PA-22/20 Producers

[Airwrench]

What a great site! Mark from Big Lake convinced me to take the time to look here. Thanks, Mark!
I'm new here, and in just looking around I started to reply to a few of the posts, but thought that starting a new thread would be better. And to introduce myself, since I was referenced in a few places. I am the son of Jake Bryant, Jake's Aircraft Salvage, of Anchorage, AK and Big Lake, AK. 1950's to date. Jake, passed away in 1986, but his legacy will
continue to live on in the airplanes we fly. He aquired many STC's during the years, but most significantly, he designed and built the first STC'd stretched Pacer, the "Producer". This was originally STC'd in 1959, as a one-time STC. Many years later we upgraded that to a multiple STC SA3614NM. I am still operating "Jake's Aircraft" at Big Lake.
To answer a few of the questions that I saw come through, A Pacer is a good airplane, but the "Producer" mod brings it into the SC class. Perfomance will match the SC especially on floats. I have one of them at Lake Hood, and built the other two.
Mark of Dakota Cub took lots of pics of N24MF ( the Montana Producer ) before he built his version. He did that while I was out flying his slotted wing SC. The Bushmaster is a similar story.
I normally keep my opinions to myself, but if I feel strongly about it, or feel it is a safety issue, I will toss my .02 in.
- keep the dirty side down - Steve

[Steve Pierce]

Steve, I have a Tri-Pacer fuselage and many other pieces I have been collecting for years for just such a project. I've got my Clipper down for recover/build right now and when that is done my L18C but am very interested in the Producer. I figure it as a poor man's PA14 only better. How much is the STC and what does it include. Can you tell me what kinds of things you had to change? (wing length etc.)

Thanks.

[Gunny]

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[Airwrench]

Steve, I build to suit, so it partially depends the other mods and features that you want. I don't sell the STC outright, It's the only way that I can protect the paperwork. basically, I lengthen the fuselage about 2 feet by building a new tail section, and installing Cub tail feathers. I rebuild and install PA-14 wings, and control surfaces. This increases wing span by 7 feet or more with tips. I can use standard PA-20 landing gear or convert to an oversized extended HD Cub style landing gear with external hydrasorbs. Left door, skylight, ext flap / ailerons, tips, tires, wheels, brakes, instrumentation, 160 hp, 180 hp, are all options. I would recommend starting with the later model PA-22's to take advantage of Piper's later features such as individual front seats, baggage door, taller instrument panel. - Steve

[Airwrench]

Gunny, Thanks.
The slotted wing were very impressive to fly - could not make them stall, nor roll over - excellent aileron response. The tail stalls first. Very nose high though, to get them to work (25 / 30 mph) which I forsee as a potential problem dragging it in real short, or on floats. - Steve

[Steve Pierce]

Will that be a certified airplane or experimental? I have built a jig to rebuild Clipper and Pacer fuselages. Have stayed pretty busy rebuilding complete airplanes and doing fuselage repairs. I would like to build it myself but like I said it will be a while. I don't spend near enough time on my own projects. To busy on customers.

[Gunny]

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[cub_driver]

Steve

I have seen your producer at Big lake a couple of times it is a great looking airplane.

Can you tell me what the cruise speed is on floats, ball park empty weight, gross weight and can you put extended fuel tanks in it?

What would the ball park figure be for the conversion if someone rolled a PA22 into your shop.

PM me if you like.

Cub_Driver

[piperfan]

Do you offer the same for a Clipper? I just can't seem to get used to those yoke things.....

[T.J.]

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[Airwrench]

Thanks for all of the comments. Obviously I don't get back to this site often enough, or to my own projects either. These are certified airplanes, but for those of you that want to build your own as an experimental, I would be willing to offer ideas, thoughts, suggestions, but too much work was put into the paperwork and approval process to pass around those specifics. To build one out of a Clipper or Colt is feasable also. There are several things that I would do differently, but I am bound to the STC and cannot easily change, and stay within compliance of the STC. That would not be the case with an experimental. It is an honor to have these airplanes thought of so highly. Thanks, Steve

[AKM5Driver]

Steve,
I think the producer is a real cool airplane and I too have seen your's at Lake Hood. I just can't understand why you will not sell the STC to individuals that wish to build their own. I think if you did and especially given the current situation with field approvals, that you would see a heck of a lot more of these fine aircraft around. I have a 22/20 that I would love to convert but can't afford the 40 or 50 thousand I hear that you charge for your services. I hope this secrecy doesn't cost you in the long run. I say this because if I am not mistaken the Canadian produced certified bilaterally Bushmaster is the same aircraft and is now in the hands of some folks in Washington. I hear they are changing the AOI to match the PA 18 (what an improvement that will be). Hopefully they will realize the economics involved and sell the STC that you will not. Heck for 40 or 50 thousand I could by another Maule (but I'd still like to modify my pacer). Hope this doesn't tick you off, but I thought youd like to hear another view (and I have heard others that wish the same).

Happy Landings!

[Steve Pierce]

I agree with AKM5Driver. I realize you have a huge investment but can someone really bootleg your STC and get it approved. I repair and rebuild rag and tube A/C for a living and honestly can't afford to bring my project to AK and have someone else do what I can do if I had the proper approved data. Plus I enjoy the work. I respect you attitude because it would really piss me off if I spent much time and money working on getting something approved only to find someone copies the data and does it for nothing. I hope there could be a compromise.

[Airwrench]

I respect and appreciate everyones opinion, even if I may not agree with it. That is what makes us all individuals.
This may appear to be an expensive modification, but I believe that you have to concider the entire package, and compare the work involved to something that we can all relate to, lets say, a wrecked super cub that needs major fuselage work, both wings and all controls rebuilt. What would you estimate the cost? And a complete recover?
Of the original PA-22/20 that I start with, the only portion that I don't have to rework is the cabin section and engine. (wouldn't this be a good time to strip the cabin section and do a compete frame up rebuild?) This is an extensive modification, if I were to sell it, what would it be worth? As it is right now, I can control the STC and the quality of the end product.
Compromise is always an option. And price goes way down when I don't have to supply the parts. Then if I don't have to recover the entire airplane, it drops even more.
- Steve

[Michael E. Butterfield]

Steve is right to protect his STC the way that he does. The mods done to the 22/20 are critical, and as the holder of the STC you are responsible, and because of that I would prefer to be involved in the process. The Bushmaster has come to Air Classic Rebuilders in Yakima. We have an apmhib on display, and a wheel plane coming together with the Dakota Cub slotted wing. We will sell the paper work but will want to be involved in the project. We are able to rebuild or modify an existing fuselage, or we can supply a new chrome moly ready to cover fuselage for not much more than the cost of a new Super Cub air frame. All the control surfaces and wing will be PA18 and we will be using the 360 or 540 for power. There are many amphib floats available, that make this plane the ultimate recreational vehicle.

[S2D]

I heard Cub Crafters wound up with the Salvage from 24MF. If they did, I bet you can quess what's coming next. Gotta admit Steve, that was one gorgeous airplane. I can understand you wanting to protect your STC. But gotta wonder how long it will be before the copycats are out copying one. If more people down here see them, more people are going to want one and with no possible way to get one built down here, They will find other ways of going about it. I know when I saw 24MF the first time, I was wishing I hadn't just sold my PA-22 project.

[Frank T]

Steve

How about posting a couple of pictures of one of your conversions to tempt everyone.

Frank

[Steve Pierce]

Is this the plane?

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030303X00275&key=1

[S2D]

yes

[AKM5Driver]

Mike,
In what aspect do you want to be involved in the process? Did you all change the wing AOI to match the cub? How much i sthe STC paperwork going to cost? Do you all have a website? I have a PA 22/20 now and am wanting to do something with it.

Thanks,
Tony

[don d]

I have a 200hp experimental bushmaster I want to sell. It's a nice airplane that really hauls a load. I have advertised it locally but can't even get a looker.

Supercub type performance but you can take 3 friends plus camping gear, then fly 600 miles at 130mph.

$30,000 might buy it. Would like to pay my 2nd. mortgage.

Don

[Bret]

Can we seesome pics and specs?

Bret

[StPat]

Don D: Where are you located? I saw a Bushmaster listed in Trade-A-Plane a while back but never could get a download. Specs and info would be nice.
Thanks
Patrick

[Michael E. Butterfield]

Hi Tony! We do not have a web site yet...but we can help you change your PA20 into a four place Quad Cub. We would like to modify the fuselage in our jig, but from there it's totally up to you how ever much you would like us to complete. We can use whatever variation on the Cub wing that you would desire. We like the slotted wing from Dakota Cub, but it is your choice. Don D please call or e-mail me, cause I would like buy your Bushmaster.

[Steve Pierce]

What would it cost if I broght you a totally stripped fuselage to do the mods to it and approve your work? Could that be done and then I do the rest as an A&P/IA?

[AKM5Driver]

Mike,
Did you change the wing AOI to match the cub? Also what costs am I looking at on your end, for the fuselage modification? Thanks for your response!

Tony

[AKM5Driver]

Mike,
One more question. Is this STC compatible with the left hand door STC?

Tony

[Michael E. Butterfield]

Hi Tony and Steve! We have changed the AOI on a Bushmaster, but it does not conform to the STC and is EXP. The left side door can be added with its own STC and still be certified, but it is not as big as the right side. In the EXP catagory we can make the left side the same as the right and they are aluminum frames that swing up. Both maintain the left rear door that still swings like stock, and is also aluminum framed. To modify an existing frame is about 6k plus any repairs that need to be done. These frames are all going on 50 years old, and are all trying to go back to dirt. Some are so far down that road that a new fuselage is quite often the better buy. We can provide a 100% brand new chrome moly fuselage with all the mods for about 15k. We provide the fuselage with the paper, and from there you can have your own way, or we can build the turnkey plane of your dreams. We would like to cover the lakes and ramps with Bushmasters on amphibs powered by the 360 or 540. If we can help in any way, please allow us to do that.mb

[AKM5Driver]

So you have done this on the experimental (the wing AOI) does this mean future STC ammendment is in the works? I also wish someone would STC the larger lh door. I think it is in the works with a Pacer GURU up here. I don't see why it couldn't be the same size as the Maule!

Tony

Oh ya, thanks for replying to the posts. I love this site!

[Airwrench]

For those interested, I posted a couple of Producer pics in the long wing piper album. A couple are of N24MF (crashed in Montana) and few others - Stevehttp://www.supercub.org/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=cubs&id=ahc

[Michael E. Butterfield]

Hi Tony!
The Bushmaster was orginated 30 years ago and consists of 250 different STC to the original design. The AOI is in the works as a revision to the STC, but is only available EXP at this time. Half of the Bushmasters out there are Normal and Standard while the other half are EXP. Flew Milo's EXP on floats at Vernon, and found it to be the same as the certifield version. The bigest difference I see is the gross weight, and you can't fly for hire...mb

[AKM5Driver]

Mike,
I think I'll wait for the AOI amendment to the STC as I feel this is the key ingredient to making this airplane really perform like a four place Cub! I think that the price of Pacer's will increase significantly once this takes place. These are just opinions of mine based on my own research ( hanger flying=research). Please keep us informed as to when this materializes. Hey, if I had it done now, when the STC amendment takes place could I go from exp to certified?

Thanks,
Tony

[KelvinG]

Mike,
I've been reading old post and would like your view on some AOI information I've been told.
Does the relationship between the wing and the tail change if the wing AOI is altered, making the tail less effective?
I've also been told increasing the wing AOI really only helps on take off and will decrease the cruse speed. That you can get the same effective AOI on take off by extending the gear legs and still keep the better cruse speed.

Good luck on your project!
Kelvin

[6.6flylow]

Can a Colt be converted to a Producer/Bushmaster? My question is if a Colt and a Pacer fuselage are the same dimensions?

[180Marty]

Colt is shorter ---pretty sure of that.

[Steve Pierce]

Colt fuselage is the same dimension as the Clipper, Pacer and Tri-Pacer. They all fit in my fuselage jig the same. The Vagabond is shorter. Paperwork probably wouldn't work on a Colt but you could make the fuselage identical pretty easy.

[180Marty]

Hey Steve, Didn't realize that. Got rid of my Dad's Colt a few years ago and it didn't look like much room behind the seats so I just guessed it had to be shorter. Interesting that the two of us soloed the same plane. :D
Marty

[RaisedByWolves]

some pics

http://supercub.org/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=ProducerPics

tom ford

[Steve Pierce]

Marty, They stuck some tubes in there and makes it look smaller. I agree on 5293H. Be glad when the lawyers are done and I can get her back. My first plane, first solo and most of my time was in that Clipper. I want it back.

[Student Pilot]

Looks like the fuse extension is aft the rear seat. The back seat in a Tri/Pacer doesn't have much room, could the extension go between the front and back seats and rear of the aft wing attach point?

With the longer moment arm from the fuse extension you would think the CG envelope could be expanded with the seat moved 12" back? The door could then be widened making a more useful rear seat/baggage area. If your going to reinvent the wheel, might as well have a bit more useful space.

[don d]

I'm not Mike B but have been there and done that. First you need a template to get the angle just right. Place bolts in the holes since this is a two part weldement. Slowly and carefully heat the area to a nice cherry red and with a partner use two large cresent wrenches and bend down to the proper angle using your template. You should be able to get it right the first time. Get it right before letting it cool. It is easier than it sounds.

Don

[6.6flylow]

Does anyone know what the performance numbers are on a Producer?

[J5Ron]

Steve B. flew his exp producer in the Valdez Show last spring and I was very impressed...He got off the ground somewhere around 160'....

[J5Ron]

I looked it up...160 take-off....247 Landing....

[AkPA/18]

Here is the link to the results. If you compare Steve's results to the cubs and Mtn Goat he did a fine job. His best TO was 151 and landing was 193. Hope we have the weather and turnout again Ron!
http://www.valdezalaska.org/events/eventsResources/flyIn2006/2005competitionResults.pdf

Mark

edit: out of the 13 supercubs only 4 beat Steve on landing distance and only 8 on TO distance. That is not too bad. Those results are interesting to look at. Good job Steve---it was really something to watch!!

[Dave Calkins]

Allen Gilland, Cessna 180: 135 and 132 for takeoff, 267 and 249 for landing.

Lots of 'weekend' -18 drivers can't pull that off!!

What about a TLine Mod for the 180 Cessna??? :D

[Jay Wieler]

D.A.,
The new one is held at Valdez. Third annual will be sometime around the end of April, first part of May.

[Gunny]

D.A. - here's a link to the website with info about this years May Day flyin at Valdez - although its April 28 to 30 this year.

http://www.valdezalaska.org/events/flyIn/flyIn.html

[FiftyNineSC]

Allen Gilland, Cessna 180: 135 and 132 for takeoff, 267 and 249 for landing.

Lots of 'weekend' -18 drivers can't pull that off!!

What about a TLine Mod for the 180 Cessna??? :D

Nice one!! :D

[Airwrench]

Here is the link to the results. If you compare Steve's results to the cubs and Mtn Goat he did a fine job. His best TO was 151 and landing was 193. Hope we have the weather and turnout again Ron!
http://www.valdezalaska.org/events/eventsResources/flyIn2006/2005competitionResults.pdf

Mark

edit: out of the 13 supercubs only 4 beat Steve on landing distance and only 8 on TO distance. That is not too bad. Those results are interesting to look at. Good job Steve---it was really something to watch!!

Thanks Mark,
Putting it into that kind of perspective you also have to include the fact that the Producer was being flown by a 275 pound pilot.
Yet it demonstrated the capabilities of the Producer, a 4 place airplane being able to perform with the Cubs. Note also that this is one of the Prototypes, which is why it is Experimental and there are a dozen certified Producers in the field, of which I hope to have a couple examples at Valdez this year. - Steve

[aalexander]

Very interesting.

Especially interesting is the performance of the Mountain Goat. My cursory count showed 21 takeoff runs (12 different airplanes) that beat Bill’s best Mountain Goat takeoff. Even more interesting is that all but one of the takeoff runs in the 300 lb. cargo competition beat Bill’s best takeoff run with only himself and minimum fuel on board the Mountain Goat.

Just for point of reference, his demonstrated takeoff run is almost 3 times the distance he claims for a takeoff run; 147 ft. vs. 50 ft.

Also his demonstrated landing length is well over twice the distance he claims; 270 ft. actual vs. 120 ft claimed, in fact his best landing run with only himself on board is only 5 feet short of the landing distance he claims for max. gross weight 270 ft. vs. 275 ft.




Allen Gilland, Cessna 180: 135 and 132 for takeoff, 267 and 249 for landing.

Lots of 'weekend' -18 drivers can't pull that off!!

Neither, apparently, can Bill Montagne in the Mountain Goat.

Also beating The Mountain Goat in takeoff distance were a Ralleye and a C-170. (and of course many PA12/18s and a 100 hp Pa-11)

The "beat the Mountain Goat on Landing" category, contained, in addition to numerous PA-11/12/18s , the Rallye, a 170, a 180, a 182 and a 185. Even a 172 came within 16 feet of beating his landing distance. And that’s just certificated aircraft. Every experimental that didn’t DQ beat his landing distance.

Can we assume that his other claimed performance data is equally honest?


I've always been a big believer in "put up or shut up" and Bill, apparently, can't put up so maybe it's time for him to shut up.