How can I fly the Alaskan bush?

[Newbie]

Ok, I know that's probably going to cause a few snickers...but it's the most concise way I could think of to say it, and this is the best audience I could think of to ask it to. I'm a lawyer right now and I hate it. (*ok...go ahead and throw your tomatoes now...I know, I hate 'em too.*) It was a major mistake, and now I'm correcting it...about halfway to my PPL and loving every second of it, flying on the side between agonizing days of lawyering. I have to pay off a mountain of student debt before I can quit for good, but I'm doing that as fast as I can and looking forward each day to finally being able to do something I've always wanted to do. I'm 32 with a wife and kid. The only workable plan I can think of is simply to move to AK in a couple of years when debt isn't killing me as much, get the rest of my ratings (any good places come to mind?), CFI for a long time (maybe permanently?)...then just go for it. Or should I stop being a doofus and smack myself between the eyes with a big gnarly 2x4 reality board?

[cubdrvr]

As my Grandpa once said " If you're heart's not in it, get you ass out of it"
Someone else said "Stick with what you know".

Maybe there is a compromise somewhere.......aviation attorney, etc. Good luck on your decision.

[Cub Kid]

The only workable plan I can think of is simply to move to AK in a couple of years when debt isn't killing me as much, get the rest of my ratings (any good places come to mind?), CFI for a long time (maybe permanently?)...then just go for it. Or should I stop being a doofus and smack myself between the eyes with a big gnarly 2x4 reality board?

Sounds like you finally know what to do with your life. Congrats on seeing the light on the lawyer thing...just kidding....Since you mentioned that you are already in debt, I would recommend against getting your additional ratings up here, as it can be pretty expensive. I did all my training in Fairbanks, and there is only one small school I am happy with here, and they have a wait list a mile and half long. I would recommend getting at least your instrument and commercial prior to coming up here. But that is just me. Also, the float rating could be helpful too, depending what you are planning on. Or if you are content to drive a 207 around all day you won't need much other than comm and inst. I definately don't blame you on leaving your profession to do something you love, as I have turned my back on several profitable potential careers for the sake of enjoying life.

Bill

[westwind]

Newbie,
I can relate to your situation, not sure what the aviation industry is like in AK but here in Canada it's pretty tough right now, even in the tourism aspect..... I graduated with commercial in 2000, presently 85% of my graduating class is unemployed as far as aviation goes, however it will turn around eventually. I would not consider working for 90% of the charter operators out there, the industry in Canada is set up to exploit the "new guys" and they do :bad-words: ........ I am just biding my time until I can start my own outfit, or an unusual opportunity presents itself...

My advice is be patient get some hours under your belt, obtain your commercial, and perhaps your IFR if you can keep it current... Your opportunity will come, however I would definately get things squared away at home "financially" before packing up your family and heading off to the wilds of Alaska... In the mean time just enjoy Flying!

Best Regards
New Guy

[Steve Pierce]

Do what you love as a hobby. I would find a firm that was more enjoyable. I don't fly for a living but I do rebuild old airplanes for one. I love what I do but don't make a killing at it. It's hard to find time and money to work on my own projects. I imagine it's hard to make a living as a Bush pilot. I have read many books on the old timers starting with nothing and building an airline but in this day and age I don't think thats as likely to happen. I do know that if you set your mind to it and are willing to go to any lengths you can do what ever you want. I started with a rented hanger and a tool box. It's been 6 years and a lot of long days and nites but I now have my own hanger and quite a bit of equipment. It's gotten easier. It would just be hard to throw lawyer's wages and all that hard work away.

[SJ]

Newbie,

I'm a dream chaser myself. I'm lucky to have a job where I work 30 hours a week (granted, it is 24 x 7 on call), and can spend another 30 on this website, then another 30 flight instructing. On weekends, I usually fly for fun on top of that.... 8)

I suspect you can always fall back on being a lawyer, but the best advice would be to do a little of both. Too much of anything can be a bad thing sometimes...

sj

[cubdriver]

Call Art Warblow of Warblow Flying Service in Fairbanks. He is also educated as a lawyer but flies the bush. He can at least give you some guidance since he is quite successful.

[GreggB]

First I think that one has to do what one has to do. That said I'll relate my personal experience/opinions. I am 33 married just finished an undergraduate degree. When I was in my early 20's I worked as a helicopter pilot for awhile and I did'nt much care for it as a profession. Flying helicopters is great fun, flying them on someone else's terms isn't all that great. I then spent the pretty much the rest of my 20's working as a professional skydiver(teaching and filming) and again I came the conclusion that what you do for work will become work. This is of course not true for everyone or every career, just my opinion. My idea is to find work that I am good at(but not passionate about) and is hopefully financially rewarding without being overly soul crushing. Personally I would rather fly a J3 on my own terms than anything for work. Reading around this web site it seems that the people having the most fun in SCs are people flying the bush for recreation, and that is something that I would like to do, (for recreation). Anyway all of this is just my opinion and is no way intended to be a judgement on anyones choice of vocation or avocation. And remember ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
Gregg

[mvivion]

Actually, Art's major was business economics, and he is a professor of economics at UAF. He also owns Warbelow's Air Ventures, which is a scheduled 135 carrier, running C-206's and Navajo's mostly. Art has one Cub, which he flies during that hunting season to keep his hand in.

This is precisely the approach I'd suggest you take, by the way, that is: find a law firm here in Alaska that you can work with. On the side, either buy an airplane and build some experience, or try to find someone who'll let you fly. One of the biggest kinks in anyone's program up here is getting some time in Alaska, for insurance purposes. Most insurance carriers want 500 hours of Alaska time, regardless of ratings, but there are exceptions.

Anyway, perhaps this would allow you to pay off debts, while starting to build some experience in Alaska, and also give you the opportunity, with some cushion, to figure out whether both you and your family, will like Alaska well enough to stay. I've been here nearly 30 years, and I love the place, but every once in a while, I get this "get the hell outta here" attack, which generally lasts for about twenty minutes. Nonetheless, it isn't for everyone, and before you cut all ties to the law, I'd ease my way into it.

By the way, earning a living flying in bush Alaska is a thankless, not too pretty job, having to deal with a lot of unpleasant people, some actually sober, with incredibly long hours, lousy benefits (if any) and poor pay. Screw up just once the wrong way, and it won't just end your career, it'll end your life.

All but the last two probably fit the lawyering trade, as well.

Nonetheless, a smooth flight right at sunrise with a nice bunch of folks for passengers can be a very rewarding profession. There are sights and experiences you won't find anywhere else.

There are some good opportunities for lawyers up here, find one where you can pay off your debt, eat, and see if this is where you want to be. In the meantime, I'd agree that I'd get rated elsewhere, preferably before coming to AK. Training up here is too restrictive, at least for the basics.

Good luck,

Mike Vivion

[nanook]

Cubdriver: Art Warbelow is a graduate of the harvard business school. He doesn't fly much any more, too busy. As far as flying in the bush goes, most of it involves flying mail/freight and native passengers out to their villages. It's not a bad job depending on the equipment your working with, and the kind of support you are getting at your place of work. If you are doing your own thing, you do everything and that is a load to carry. Just to make a flight in the winter, you need to preheat/remove covers or frost/snow, figure out the load/seat configuration(did the passengers show up yet?) check the weather(did anyone plow the runway yet in the village) check when official daylight is because you can't haul passengers into an unlit runway. Try to get a hold of your passengers in the village who are riding on the return so they know you are coming(it's too cold to sit on the ground for too long) and when you get done you need to fuel for tomorrow/ put the engine and wing covers on and then all the paperwork that the FAA says you must do. It's easier to work for a carrier, but some are not much fun to work for, long hrs. low pay, incompetent managers and help. It's easy to get burned out flying that way, just like anything you need to have some fun flying or like steve says it becomes work.

[Psychonaut]

Hi,

I am somehow in the same situation. I have a well paying job i am not really satisfied with. But i agree with GreggB, If it's work, it will probably someday feel as work :-) Furthermore i actually like having a certain amount of money per month. I really got used to that. I just did my PPL in a proffessional ATPL school. I was the only PPL student there. From my class, and the class after that, and.....well lets put it that way: If anyone gets a job, there is a big party! Looks not very good right now. At least not in germany where i am from.

I had the idea once to run a professional charter business. But as i calculated there is not much money to make and a lot of risk these days. Flying is so expensive that people fly lesser and lesser. The amount of people willing to become a recreational pilot decrases.

But hey, like in flying: safety is first! This goes also for financial decisions :-)

So i will probably look for another job wich is more fun and keep flying for fun (as much as i can afford). Perhaps the sport plane catecory (we will eventually get something similar in europe) will light up interest in flying again and renting out planes will become finacially more interesting one day...That day i will think about it again.

As an alternative i can imagine selling planes could be fun. But as sales are that much down, that idea is probably also a waste....

well, good luck anyway with any decision you take.....


Mirko "Psychonaut"

[Anne]

I sent you a PM on this. Check your messages.

Anne.

[cub_driver]

I can only imagine what it must be like siting in a stuffy office all day looking at the wonderful weather outside and dreaming of the freedom and independence a Bush pilot in Alaska must have. I understand how the dream can draw men up here. On the other hand I can tell you what it's like to be caught flying in scud building ice no place to land wishing I was in a nice warm dry safe office.

Hang in there it will all get better when you get your student loans payed off. Being you have a good job with a predictable income I would recommend you keep your flying as recreation for now travel and enjoy it. Pick up more ratings over time and build lots of time in the air. Having to fly your plane when you don't want to dampens the freedom and independence you are now enjoying.

If in time you want to make the jump over to being a working Alaskan Pilot spend a summer up here flying around and meeting with the different operators.

Cub_Driver

[drew]

If what you love can become work, I don't think you're doing it right. I gave up on corporate America in 1998 and became an A&P. While I'm currently on an extended all-expense paid vacation in Iraq, courtesy of Uncle Sam, I have no problem putting in 10-12 hours working on airplanes at my job, and then rushing home so I can work on my wife's airplane. My co-workers look at me odd, but before I left, I was looking for ways to get projects done during breaks and lunch, too.

It may be that I'm just a complete maniac, but every bit of me wants to work on airplanes, especially since I've been unable to touch them for 9 months, now.

[Rookie]

Good luck to you and all your buddies and comrads over there in Iraq, Drew. I know I was surprised to read your posting from there, and I hope you get to come home soon.

Nice thoughts about doing what you love. I'm having my hard times in corporate America myself these days. I'm making money, good money, but more and more it seems like the way we're doing things isn't right, and isn't worth the human emotional costs. "Brutal" is the best way I can describe my workplace these days.

Godspeed, Drew.

[Torch]

I am living your dream. It is the best.

http://www.home.gci.net/~ddwest/mirror.jpg

[drew]

Not to hijack the thread, but now comes the tricky part, job-wise. I am, by no means, what you could even loosely describe as a "team player". I really need to quit my full-time job and go to work for and by myself. I'm halfway scared spitless of being completely on my own, but I've done the financials and know I can do it.

Here's to courage, and I've gone this far, so I might as well go all the way.

Drew

[drew]

Not to hijack the thread, but now comes the tricky part, job-wise. I am, by no means, what you could even loosely describe as a "team player". I really need to quit my full-time job and go to work for and by myself. I'm halfway scared spitless of being completely on my own, but I've done the financials and know I can do it.

Here's to courage, and I've gone this far, so I might as well go all the way.

Drew

[Steve Pierce]

When I opened my own shop I was as nerous as a long tailed cat in a rocking chair factory. I left my previous job on great terms and knew I could always go back. I really didn't want to take that option. I'm greatful that I didn't have to. I think it would be very hard for me to work for some else now. I very much like being my own boss. If something screws up there is no one else to blame but me and if there are rewards I get to reap them.

[CubLite]

I can make doing anything fun if I WANT to do it, but if I HAVE to do it, it's another story. I love flying, but if I HAD to do it for somebody else, I think that I could grow to not love it as much. I would tend to agree with a lot of the advise given so far. Go with a law firm in Alaska, exploring the aviation opportunities once you get up there and figure it out. Lawyers generally deal with a diverse group of people, I am sure some aviation opportunities will present themselves if you keep your eyes and ears open for them. Good Luck.

Pat

[Bill Rusk]

Be careful here. It takes a LOT of money to fly as a hobby. For you to obtain the type of income that is required to fly on the side or as a hobby you will have to sell your soul to Lawering. You will work very long hours and what time that is left will be spent with the family ( or should be ), leaving little to no time to pursue your passion.
I fly for a living and still enjoy it and come home and fly a J-3 for pure fun. No stress. In lawering every encounter is negative.... someone is suing, in trouble, being sued, getting a divorce, etc. Very negative and stressful. STRESS WILL KILL YOU.
In short, if you don't want to be a lawer, then don't. Life is short and no one ever laid on his death bed and wished he'd spent more time at the office. If you really want to fly then do it. You will be happier and your family will be happier too.

[Newbie]

I appreciate everyone's feedback...great perspectives all around. The conceptual tension between "do what you enjoy for a living" and "if you do it for a living you won't enjoy it as much" is extremely interesting. I honestly think I could fly all day every day and continue to wake up excited about it for the rest of my life...as opposed to what I do now, every second of which I absolutely loathe. I'd rather chew tinfoil than practice law for the rest of my life. I don't want to fly an airliner, cruising at flight levels and monitoring the autopilot. I respect those who do it, but it's just not for me. As evidenced by my other posts (aerobatics, cropdusting), I'm basically just searching for a feasible fit. Right now I am trapped until I pay down enough of my law school loans to allow an escape. I have no choice right now but to grit my teeth and slog through it for another year or two. My family has decided that it is "less than enthused" about living in Alaska (they just don't get it). So it looks like cropdusting is probably the way to go. Now...to research ag-schools. We're planning a road trip vacation in a while to visit U. Minnesota (Crookston), Ag-Flight (Bainbridge, GA), and Carolina Thunder (N. Carolina). I really do appreciate everything that everyone has offered me. This is a wonderful site with wonderful participants.

[StewartB]

Newbie,

Do you know what it's called when you take an activity you love, and try to make a living doing it?

A job.

Watch out, it may turn your passion into drudgery.

Been there, done that.

SB

[AKM5Driver]

Newbie,
It sounds like we are in the same shoes! Although I do have to admit I did not go to law school (pondered it though). I think that if a person feels compeled to try something new than they should go for it. It is much easier to test the waters and decide that it wasn't all it's cracked up to be, than it is to be almost on your death bed and wishing you would have tried this or that. I too am thinking on the lines that you are, and wish to do the same type of flying (bush work, floats, cropdusting or firebombing) I will probably test the waters here in Alaska first and I think I'll try it on my own. I think the key to survivng on your own is to be flying airplanes that are paid for, I say this because of the hull insurance issue and if it's paid for and you are willing to take the risk you don't have to carry it until you prove yourself to the inssurance industry, that way you can afford it ( this is all just a theory in my mind). I welcome any comments or advice. Let me know what you find out at the Ag flying schools. I did talk to Crookston and they have Scholarships if you already have a degree with I think a 3.5 GPA.

Happy Landings,
Tony

[S2D]

Newbie- A couple things you have to realize about cropdusting are- The most romatic part of cropdusting is where you're sitting right now. On the outside looking up. To this day, I still get a bigger rush pulling up on a hill early in the morning and listening to the sound of a 1340 or 520 echo across the valley. Unfortunately, I very seldom get to hear that cause I am usually a couple hills away and all I can hear is noise in my headset and it doesn't sound near as romantic.
The thought of flying one of those nice shiny turbines that Murph flies sounds great, but the reality is, that you probably won't see one of those from the inside for a long time. Instead your first job after you spent all that money getting those ratings and schoolin will be loading for someone that is or if you are real lucky, flying a beat up old Cessna in a one horse town where the only entertainment in 50 miles is to go drink beer at the local watering hole with your customers, who don't really have to get up in the morning but expect you to be there at sunrise if the wind isn't howling, which it usually is, unless you went down to the local watering hole till wee hours of the morning cause you got sick of watching the wind blow all week in which case it will be perfectly calm that morning.
Also, the pay those first few years won't be much cause nobody that has real good paying spraying wants to risk it by putting a beginner in his airplane and having it or the job screwed up and lose a good customer.
After two or three months of eating , drinking and sleeping nothing but spraying, the last thing a person wants to hear is that alarm clock at 3:30 in the morning.

The good news is that after all that, about a week after the season slows down, you start getting withdrawl symptoms , and just have to go drag an airplane out and go putter up the valley admiring the view. If you make it that far, life doesn't get any better-- But you better be sure that you want to subject your family to those first few years.

[SJ]

You might want to read this article before you switch jobs...

Excerpt: Most dangerous jobs:

Commercial pilots are third on the list, buoyed by numbers from pilots of small airplanes. According to the article, an Alaskan bush pilot who works a full career runs a one in eight chance of dying an untimely death. Those are higher odds than winning a free Mountain Dew in those ?look under the cap? promotions

Article:
http://www.hibbingmn.com/placed/index.php?sect_rank=4&story_id=156196

sj

[AKM5Driver]

If you run your own operation and are smarter than you are greedy, you can curtail this phenomenon drastically. Most of the pilots getting killed or killing their passengers are flying VFR into IMC conditions. The industry up here is deffinitely trying to change as well.

Tony

[Newbie]

I've brushed with death twice already -- not scared anymore. I'd rather die young and happy than old and miserable. (Of course, old and happy trumps both, but if I had to choose...).

[cubdrvr]

You must be a young whipersnapper Newbie ! :bang Fear is a good thing.

[Newbie]

I'm 32. The only thing I'm scared of anymore is my mother-in-law.

[StewartB]

Newbie,
My biggest fear is outliving my kid. My second biggest is her being fatherless.

Tony,
You are so wrong. Here's why commercial pilots die. When you fly for a living, you starve if you don't fly. When three or four days of really bad weather turn into a gray morning of really marginal weather, and your car payment's due, you are motivated to fly. Add to that your clients have planned the trip they're on for a year or two, and they want to go, and now. Or they're stuck in the field and want to come home, and now. Heck, those clouds aren't THAT low, and the wind isn't THAT bad. You agonize, then you rationalize. If you don't take them, somebody else will, then you lose the revenue, and potential return business or referrals.

And your other idea about no insurance is fascinating, as well. I don't know of a commercial pilot that would consider putting a client into their plane without having insurance. If somebody dies in your plane, you can't have enough. So, your family not only will grieve, they'll probably pay.
SB

[Newbie]

Even if we assume duty, breach, causation, and damages (and no viable defenses)...i.e. a clear-cut case that attaches full liability to the corporate entity, on what basis could the plaintiff's survivors ground a successful claim in tort against the family's assets? Limitation of liability is the primary reason for incorporating in the first place, and courts are generally loathe to violate it. So unless the plaintiff could find some way to pierce the corporate veil the corporation would simply go bankrupt in the claim and the family's assets would not be attachable. There are a few ways to pierce the corporate veil, but they're limited, and generally easy to defeat. Does AK state law somehow make it easier? I know WV has a history of easy piercing (and doctors have packed up and moved out in response), but I wasn't aware of any such ease in AK. I'll go run some searches.

[StewartB]

Newbie,
You assume all commercial operators are incorporated. Not all are, especially the little guys.
SB

[Newbie]

Then they're taking on a form of risk, just like the uninsured operator. Incorporating is cheap (indeed DIRT cheap when compared to insurance) and easy as pie...you don't even need a lawyer. :wink: In addition, a wide variety of other liability-limiting arrangements exists nowadays, to include LLPs & LLCs, which small operators (and even sole proprietors) can use with great ease and effectiveness. The tax implications of each arrangement are different, but the liablity protection is basically the same. Without SOME form of liability limitation in place, you're begging for trouble -- maybe even more "family-hurtful" trouble than a lack of insurance. Hmmm...maybe I should get up there and practice a bit...set ya'll up with some sweetness. Oh wait...I hate this stuff.

[AKM5Driver]

Newbie,
Not being scared is an inherently poor trait for a pilot expecting longevity. I'm not saying you should be scared shitless, but you should always be somewhat on edge in my opinion. Not being on edge dictates complacency and complacency will get you killed and I don't think your family would think of you as a hero if you left them fatherless and husbandless. I am no veteran pilot Newbie, I've only been at it for three years but I do alot of research as to why other pilots have killed themselves or others, hope you were just shooting from the hip on your last comment!

Happy landings,
Tony

[Newbie]

Tony,

I assume you're refering to my "young & happy v. old & miserable" statement. Mainly I was responding (yes, in a somewhat hip-shot way) to Steve's advice regarding carefully thinking through a career change in light of the dangerous nature of certain flying environments. Just another way of saying that if working in a dangerous environment is the price of happiness (for me), then I'm willing to pay it. Others may not be, and there may be other prices that I'm not willing to pay. From what I've been able to tell, I fall roughly into the middle of the risk-aversion/attraction bell curve. But make no mistake -- I am very scared of my mother-in-law.

[nanook]

Newbie: Best not make light of the hazards of bush flying for a living. The country is littered with wrecked airplanes, mostly wx. related, many are from over-confident experienced pilots. Most are from new pilots, who just didn't get the opportunity to gain the experience level required to survive.

[Newbie]

I'm not making light. I really am scared of her.

[AKM5Driver]

Stewart,
It is this rationalization that is killing pilots and clients. Like I said before if you are not greedy or so caught up on the credit treadmill, then you can minimize the risk involved,by choosing not fly on days that you shouldn't fly on. You may have angry clients that can't understand why you the PILOT IN COMMAND won't fly, but they will be alive and angry! If the next guy is willing to take them and your risk assesment says you shouldn't be flying then perhaps you should explain to the clients how much of a risk of their lives flying would be and let them go down the road or wait for another day. At least you and your family could live with themselves because you made the right decision!
As far as the insurance goes, I was refering to the hull insurance. In order to operate 135 you are required to have liability insurance. If an operator is not incorporated he's making a big mistake. Incorporating is probably the cheapest personal asset protection you will ever spend your money on.
Bush Pilots can minimize the risk, it is just going to take time to get people to loose the monetary driven decision making!

Tony[/b]

[StewartB]

Tony,
Like I said, fly or starve. Second, if you use an airplane to earn a living, and it's not insured, you won't make a living for long. Asset protection is a fundamental business practice. Third, most accidents are blamed on pilot error. Corporations don't fly airplanes...pilots do. I have paid attorneys to defend suits that didn't appear to have merit, including those behind the "corporate veil." It's not as clear cut as Newbie has indicated. In fact, I've never seen a clear cut lawsuit. That's why little old ladies get millions for spilling coffee on themselves.

The most dangerous (small aircraft) flights are those where a schedule is imposed. The only way you can run a business is to follow a schedule. Some scheduling concessions are made, but some aren't. If schedules weren't important, crabbers wouldn't die in the Bering Sea. They'd wait for good weather. But fishing season occurs during bad weather. As does hunting season for pilots.
SB

[djfraudman]

I have to second what Stewart said about lawsuits, you may win/lose, but you still had to have an attorney and that costs money, real money. Attorneys who defend lawsuits don't work on credit. So in taking that thought one step further, that is one of the best reasons to have insurance coverage. The company is required to defend you.

[Newbie]

I always have to chuckle when the McDonald's coffee case comes into play as an example of "Torts Liability Gone Wild." To hear the outcome as it is often described, you'd think Lady Justice was out partying drunk, lifting up her shirt and showing herself to rabid cameramen, or something. At the end of the day, the bottom line is that if you don't want liability for negligent behavior to attach to you, your business entity, your family, or your pet monkey, then don't behave in a way that a jury will consider to be negligent. If the guy down the road wants to behave that way, that's between him and his own pet monkey. Maybe that means going hungry sometimes, or even starving (maybe eat the monkey?). If the choice really comes down to dying with a full stomach or dying from an empty one, then we might as well eat desert while we're at it. But I doubt that it really comes down to quite so drastic a choice. The more difficult question is to what extent, if any, the insurance system makes us "our brother's keeper" since if our brother behaves negligently, our own insurance rates go up, even though we're behaving cautiously. I think that's the community-wide change in behaviour that Tony is focusing on.

[mvivion]

Newbie,

Don't know much about the Mickey D's coffee case, except brief snippets from the media. We all know about the media.

That said, how does the infamous Super Cub case in New Mexico fit into your view of liabilities, personal and otherwise?

As Stewart says, the NTSB almost never calls the probable cause of an accident "Company negligence", rather, it is almost always "pilot error". If the pilot erred, he or she is certainly subject to suit. If he or she died, his or her family may also be subject to suit, whether successful or not.

Frankly, the best defense against all of this is the general lack of significant assets of most commercial pilots, at least ones flying these sorts of aircraft. No deep pockets, no point in suing.

I am curious in reference to your comments re: incorporation. I consulted with an attorney about LLC for my one man, one airplane flight instructing (part time) business. He told me quite definitively that, while there may be legitimate reasons for forming an LLC, at least in my case, doing so wouldn't protect me or my family from liability, should I or one of my students do something dumb, and/or fatal.

That's not to say this guy knows everything about such stuff, but he is well respected hereabouts, and that is his specialty in law.

Mike V

[SJ]

Mike,

I got the same response from two aviation attorneys here as well.

sj

[Cub Kid]

Been watching this thread for a while, so i decided to throw in my 2 cents. Stewart, you are abslutely correct on pilots getting killed. THe pilot hasn't flown in several days, so he, as pilot in command makes a concious decision to try the flight. He sees it as a calculated risk, it is a risk of sorts every time you get in an airplane. He may be pressured by the company, or clients or whatever, but it all comes down to his personal decision to attempt the flight, usually based as you say on hunger, finances, or pride. No one gets into an airplane thinking "yeah I will probably die on this flight" personally, i see the pressures being mainly self imposed, and a certain lack of consideration for the consequences that could result from that particular flight. THe weather is not that bad, I think i can see the ridge line, etc. The bottom line is that flying is not all that dangerous, however the risks can increase fast with pushing weather, poor maintenance, etc, rationalization...I've done it before, I can do it again...pride, etc. I really don't think this post will be news to anyone, but it offers my thoughts on the issue. Keep it safe.

Bill

[AKM5Driver]

Cub Kid,
My thoughts exactly! SB, I understand we all have monetary needs, but none are paramount to living another day. It is the mentality that you describe that is killing people and making the cost of aviation for us all to go up! Don't you ever try to make an educated look at why a pilot crashed and killed himself and his passengers. In doing so you can help yourself make better decisions. Yeah, you're probably an old pro (assumtion on my part, based on your comments) but your thought process is a, in my opinion, a little clouded. I am really not trying to bust your bubble here, but I am trying to show you a different way of thinking so that we all may benefit. If we didn't fly when we shouldn't be flying then we wouldn't be killing people and our insurance cost would not be what they are now, which would also reduce the pressure of thinking you have to go. If everyone would adopt an attitude like this, the costs for us all would go down.
As far as the insurance issue goes, I don't think you read what I stated in it's entirety. I was refering to not having to carry hull insurance. I know flying without liability ins. and doing so commercially would be pretty ignorant and furthermore against the law. Hope this clears some things up.
Wow, has this post turned in to a hornets nest or what?

Tony

[Newbie]

Mike (& Steve),

Don't know much about the NM case except that it had strict product liability strains running through it, which makes it a totally different animal than the more garden variety negligence situations presently at issue. Strict liability centers on cost internalization, not fault.

As for "subject to suit"...everyone (and every entity) is subject to suit for everything. It's part of existing.

As for "no deep pockets, no point in suing"...I agree completely. The problem for defendants is that creative (or desperate) plaintiffs will find the nearest deep pocket and attempt to construct a legal theory on which to base a grab into it. That's why it's so critical to keep various pockets structurally separate.

As for the advice you (& Steve) received in that regard: I'm not licensed in your states, I don't practice tort law or aviation law, and I don't know your individual situations. But I do know this: In whatever field of legal specialization is at play, a good planning attorney (as opposed to a trial attorney) can tell you what the law is, what it allows, and what it prohibits. A great planning attorney, however, will go far beyond this and figure out a way to help you flourish. If your family's financial well-being is at appreciable risk, I'd go so far as to venture a bold statement that your legal affairs are not optimally arranged, and you need the assistance of a great planning attorney, not just a good one. I'm not that person in this particular field, but it's probably worth finding one.

[StewartB]

Tony,
Trust me, we don't disagree on the decision process. I've just stated reality, and history supports it. It won't change anytime soon, either. I'd go further and point out that by cutting out insurance, you have elected to reduce your costs, and can therefore reduce your price to attract business. The competition will answer. They can find business by flying when you won't. You just escalated the risk problem. Of course, you can cut your costs further by reducing things like maintenance. All this is theory, and we could argue all week. The situation will still exist. Business is business.

Newbie,
A good trust attorney is the best protection the law allows. And they don't litigate.
SB

[Newbie]

Stewart,

Uh oh...you said "theory"...now you've done it! Here's some fun theoretical food for thought (I don't know if everyone is sick of playing yet or not): What if somebody snapped their fingers and insurance disappeared -- pure risk/cost internalization, no cross-subsidization, no cross-support. Pure "I break, I buy." Who would the economic winners and losers in that world be, as compared to the economic winners and losers in the current world of insured activity? This, too, is probably an empirical question that none of us are equipped to answer, but it's kind of fun to bat around.

[AKM5Driver]

SB,
I once again state that I would not fly without liability, and I would only fly with out hull insurance until my flight hours would allow the gustapo insurance industry to quote me an affordable rate. The only risk I am taking in this manner is the loss of my airplane. I really have been enjoying this debate and hope you also enjoy it as it really is a great learning tool. I guess most of this comes from my optimistic outlook on life. The only way anything will change is if those that beleive that change needs to be made change what needs to be changed, and if I get my own operation going I aim to do just that. I will be setting the standards for myself and my clients not someone else. If the clients can't live with my limits I guess they'll go down the road and so be it. Many fortunes have been made by operations that bend the rules and fly when one shouldn't be flying, but many of those fortunes have also been lost because these very operations kill to many people.
Is it because the flying season is so short that the operators have to push the limits?

Tony

[j3jm]

Newby, it's not a matter of fear or courage, it's a question of caution mixed with maturity and experience. A "fearless" person would be the very last on my list of people to hire to fly my airplane.

[Newbie]

j3jm,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Sorry I tried to inject a little light humor...didn't realize how close to the bone it would cut. I wasn't always an office rat...I've had to deal with death in a few different forms, and humor simply emerges as a coping mechanism. I later clarified that I fall roughly into the middle of the bell curve for risk aversion/attraction. I cancelled a X-C trip just this morning based on the weather forecasted at the destination, and it really wasn't even all that bad...just a little foggy. But I know and respect my personal limits at this stage of my flying, so it was an easy call. Please consider me duly chastised. Henceforth, I shall more closely consider my use of humor and the unintended interpretations in which it might inadvertently result.