Cub Crafters

[tpliura]

I have a question that has been on my mind for quite some time. I hold a private pilot's license, but I have not flown actively for several years. I am getting current again and I'm considering the purchase of a new or used Supercub. I have never owned a Supercub.

I am wondering why more than a few posts on this site seem to be negative or derogatory against Cub Crafters. The majority of the posts seem to deride Cub Crafters because their planes are not inexpensive to purchase. Other posts appear to ridicule people who have been fortunate enough to earn the money necessary to pay top dollar for a new(er) plane. Many of these posts consistently come from a relatively small group of individuals who perceive themselves to be experts about Supercubs.

I have no financial interest in Cub Crafters, nor do I know anyone who works there. But I have spoken with Jim Richmond several times about purchasing a new or used plane. He has been very helpful and informative. The times I have spoken with him, he went out of his way to try and answer my questions. His interactions with me were not inconsistent with a small-business owner trying to run a successful business. In my opinion, he is trying hard to be a good businessman.

Admittedly I am not an expert in this subject matter. On the other hand, I have found the Cub Crafters people very helpful to me personally. They always seem ready, willing, and able to answer any questions. Am I wrong, or does there historically seem to be some animosity towards the Cub Crafters concept on the Supercub.org posts in the past?

This is not intended to be a "rant & rave" issue, but a simple query for my own information.

Tom Pliura
P.O. Box 130
Le Roy, IL 61752
e-mail: tpliura@fgi.net

[PA12driver]

Tom,

I for one personally appreciate your perception of the posts on this site in mention of CC's product and or service.

I think we "all" could learn something from your comments. Harmony is something that is certainly in the best interest of all of us that are passionate about flying and in more particular flying Piper Highwing products.

While some may have a negative opinion of Jim and or his business practices, I have never personally had any bad experiences and in fact consider Jim, Nathan and the crew all good friends. They produce a product that has captured a segment of the market and certainly have been instrumental in affecting the "value" of all cubs especially the Supercub. We vote with our $$'s in this country and sometime, I to am guilty of saying in public that which should probably best be said to a "select audience" and most likely only to the individual that can 'do something with it' (good or bad).

I truly hope you are able to glean some valuable information from our site and will join us in sharing your love for flying.

If you want my opinions,(send a PM) and I will gladly give you my .02 worth.

Well come aboard!

Tim

[Wayne Mackey]

Tom, your thoughts are correct. I have said before on this site that although I don't
always agree with C.C. they have always been Quick and fair in dealing with me.
I give them credit with keeping the cub alive. I'm with Tim, this site should be to
promote the cub and the like, not to bash one another. Wayne

[supercub]

I agree with all the above postings. My dealings, although limited with Cub Crafters has always been positive. When I was having trouble with my carb running rich, Jim sent me a used carb to try, no charge, other then shipping. In the past, when I've called with a question, no matter whom I've talked to at Cub Crafters they have always been very nice. Seems like we all share a common love......."aviation" for most of us on this site, that love is elevated by a plane known as the "Super Cub".
Brian

[Crash]

Most of us came over from the Cub Crafters chat site. Other then getting edited for saying anything that ran contrary to Cub Crafter's interests it was a fun site. One day I found I was talking to myself and everyone was gone. I asked where everyone went and a post came up..supercub.org. The rest is history. They killed their chat site a few months later. I have purchased parts from them and have been treated fair. There are some are some hard feeling in Alaska for Jim stealing, oops... I mean copying STC's that were developed here (Alaska) and commercializing them $$$$. That's the short and long. Crash

[nanook]

I'd have to agree with Crash about the STC aspect. Most of the STCs came out of Alaska with a minor variation (sometimes) for claim to originality. One other bothersome irritant was the 180hp is GOD preaching on and on like nobody could possibly believe otherwise. I have ordered parts from them and appreciate their efforts to keep the cub going. I don't think I would buy an aircraft from them, you could be certain that if you did, you paid top dollar and then some for it.

[Plemmons]

You will not have any problems with Cub Crafters. The bad publicity you have heard or read is second hand, hearsay, or comes from jealousy. I bought one of their airplanes early this year after having tracked the company for several years. It is the best flying airplane I have ever flown, a far superior product. Jim, Nathan, and their staff did everything they said they would do plus some. The airplane was scheduled, manufactured, and transferred at the times promised. I have had no problems with Cub Crafters or their product.

[SJ]

Well, since the ink is about dry on the loan papers, and I have checked the hangar 15 times and yes, it is really in there, I can now say that I just last week purchased a used 2000 CC top cub on 31"bw's and amphibs.

I knew I was hooked when I flew Paul Fisher's 2002 up in New Holstein this last year, but did not ever think I could find something in my price range ( Even though according to Dana, I didn't really find anything in "our" price range :oops: ).

I wanted an airplane I could really rely on and that was comfortable for long trips, had all the mods, etc, but was still a cub. If you add it all up, you might as well buy a Top Cub (or one of the other fine rebuilders products) since it costs you just as much to do it yourself.

I had an email discussion with Jim Richmond about the airplane before I bought it. Sure, he would have preferred I buy a new one directly from him, and I wish I could afford to (I can't), but he was VERY helpful with information about the plane, the mods to it, etc, even though he did not make a dime on the sale. I continue to be impressed with my dealings with them.

I know there are some bad feelings about CC out there, and I suspect folks make have good reason for them. However, I have never had a negative experience. I try to base my relationships - both business and friendly - on my own experience rather than someone else's and I have not been disappointed here yet.

Well, back to washing dishes at Denny's to pay for that airplane...

sj

[cubfan]

Color me jealous. Congratulations on your purchase. :cheers Where are the photos?

Jim

[SJ]

I had to sell the camera too...

I haven't really taken any yet, too busy flying (mostly with students in other airplanes) and having the worst head cold I have had in memory.

If I instruct 100 hours per month and wash dishes at Denny's and do my day job, I should be able to keep up with the payments. That is the un-enviable aspect of it.

sj

[Fortysix12]

Congrats Steve,

But I must contribute my wisdom here. I for one have always admired the Cubcrafter Topcub. There contributions to the airplane are awsome. I tend to think that our geographical location tends to influence our opinions and sometimes may even contribute to a small minded philosophy and position. Now, on a more liter note. I'll bet your grinning ear to ear when you fire up your new rig. What prop do you have and how she set up instrument wise. Hope to hear from the the Jan soon. Nothen like a new a airplane to fly. I also know it helps to have your better half's vote as well.

[SuperCub MD]

So you weren't just blowin' smoke...Congrates sj. Make sure it's wearing those amphibs the next time you stop up (as long as the ice isn't on). I'll point you towards some nice H2O.

[diggler]

deleet

[SJ]

MD,

I bought it so I could go back to the seaplane base and pick up Anne at 8D1 next year when she misses the bus... (sorry Anne, one last jab).

Planning on going to Florida to get all the necessary insurance ratings in a similar bird at the first of '04 then putting it on the floats in the spring - after a NM trip, so probably have them on at 8D1 this coming year.

Some folks asked for the specs, and my opinions of it so far. Keep in mind I don't have vast super cub experience, I have flown 10 -12 different ones and have about 500 hours in them. So here is my "early" report.

First, 994CC is 180HP currently with a borer prop. I also have the sensenich prop which I will put on this weekend to compare. It has BLR VG's, extended ailerons, and droop tips, as well as all kind of fancy stuff in the panel (not IFR however). It also has a 32 gallon belly tank giving it a total of 68 gallons of fuel, and it is sitting on 31" bushwheels at the moment. It is also red in color, so there ya go Tim..

I am by no means the king of short field technique, but I can get this airplane in in 150 - 175' with a 10kt headwind. Approach speed is a slow as you dare - usually I dare about 20mph on the ASI, but I note that the gps ground speed would indicate significant instrument error as the ground speed is in the 40's. There is not a particularly high angle of attack at these speeds as there is in 197T the flapless wonder and it feels very stable and comfortable with the extended ailerons.

The plane empty on 31" bushwheels is just over 1200lbs, that includes the belly tank. With one guy and partial fuel it feels really light. If you fill it up (72 gallons) and put two big guys in it, it feels heavy, but still is responsive and has no trouble get up and going. This seems to be where the 180hp makes a difference. Having flown Wilbur's 150HP with flaps, I think the lightweight performace of the two planes are pretty similar. But loaded up I think the 180 makes the day. I sense that it has significant capacity to be overgrossed and I suspect folks that really use them do so to a high degree (not advocating that, just say'n).

Russell, the previous owner went all the way on this plane. It even has the engine that is ready for a CS prop option should it ever come to pass (to kick the husky's *ss... kinda ryhmes..) The seats are VERY comfortable, the controls well balance and rigged, having all the switches on the panel is very nice, tannis heater, underseat and extended baggage, stick cover, audio gear warning system, garmin 420, bose prewired headset, all it needs is a bar and flight attendant.

Probably if I had ordered it, I would have bought the IFR (vac) package - even though the CC website implies that this does not make it IFR certified (I think it requires an FA). I don't plan to fly IFR in it, but it does make a nice option once in a while.

So, then people ask, "I thought you were looking at C180's what made you buy another Super Cub?" I did some soul searching about aircraft that I have flown and owned, and the only airplane that I seem to never get enough of is the cub. I knew I wanted something I would feel safe flying to alaska, canada, and wherever else and have always dreamed of floats but never imagined I could swing it.

You only go around once as they say, so I am going for the gusto.

Oh the other question that came up: Am I going to rent it out? No. However, I may consider doing float ratings in the midwest some day when I have some experience but they would probably be dual only.

I'll keep you posted as I learn more.

sj

P.S. Although Dana has been very understanding about all this, she did say all other aviation assetts must go, so 197T has a sale pending on it right now. If that falls through, you will see it advertised here.

[SJ]

Diggler,

It is going to have to be a big party...

sj

[Bob Breeden]

Go, Steve, Go!

Congratulations on your new great airplane! Going from no flaps, no extended baggage and 135 to an almost new airplane with flaps, 180 hp, baggage area bushwheels, amphibs and who knows what other mods makes for a big YIPPEE I'm sure. Tell us how she flys!

Bob Breeden

[SJ]

Thanks Bob, scroll up a couple for the first report.

sj

[Crash]

Congrats Steve. Don't get me wrong on my previous post, I was not bashing their product. I just think the credit for most "their" STC's needs to go where it belongs, Alaska, not Yakima Washington. The STC's were developed up here, out of need, by savy Alaskan bush pilots. As far as their product, the Top Cub, I think it's top notch. If all were roesy though, they wouldn't have long standing legal battle with Piper. It's Piper's R&D, design, and type certificate they are copying. Again, Jim is just doing an unauthorized knock off just like all the Alaskan STC's. Thats my point and I am sticking to it. The post that started all this was "why was Cub Crafters knocked so much on this site?" I am thinking about rebuilding another PIPER PA-18-180 and putting it on amphibs. When you put it on the amphibs I would like to get some performance feed back. Best wishes. Crash

[SJ]

No amphibs 'till spring Crash, but I will let you know.

I have heard it is very impressive from the previous owner.

sj

[PA12driver]

Congrates Steve:

" It also has a 32 gallon belly tank giving it a total of 68 gallons of fuel, and it is sitting on 31" bushwheels at the moment. It is also red in color, so there ya go Tim.. " I am not envious I am out right jealous!! I think the belly tank and the the engine set up for CS is a great deal. I have a friend with an Exp cub with a CS prop and it does indeed perform, especially at cruise (however it is heavy)

Did you actually weigh the cub with all the goodies?? 1200 empty sounds awesome but sustpect? I have weighed a couple of CC cubs and not seen one yet that weighed that light outfitted like yours (not to say it isn't possible? I would love to see some "actual weights posted of similar planes.

As far as kicking husky #@s. You done it!! just the fact that it will slow down and still fly makes that a reality. Also you can uncowl a husky and and have enough pk screws to rebuild a cub!

A Garmin 430!! that alone will make a years worth of payments!! let me know if you want to peddle your D100?? (just kidding) takes some pictures and post!!

Again Thanks for the incentive, I am going to start groveling today for the need for 180 hp and floats!

Tim

[Anne]

I bought it so I could go back to the seaplane base and pick up Anne at 8D1 next year when she misses the bus...

I might miss the bus on purpose, Steve... :lol:

Congratulations! When are you going to let Dana fly it???

On the original topic: I haven't had any dealings with CC other than a casual inquiry into a couple of mods. They were very nice on the phone, and sent the material out immediately. I'm glad they're around, even though I can't afford a new or used one and really like what I have now anyway. If Piper doesn't want to build a plane that's in demand, why shouldn't someone else? Sure it's a copy of the SC, and so is a Husky. That's what we want, isn't it? More power to them. We should be thanking CC and Husky for keeping the type alive.

Anne.

[Crash]

Steve, selling those weiners must have really paid off. Just kiding. I've been trying to buy one, but Pay Pal keeps kicking me off. I want a big one like Stuart's and Tim's. If I can get my Cub payment...uh I mean donation to process, do I get a choice of color for my weiner? Crash

[diggler]

delete

[SJ]

Crash,

Actually, I may have to sell the website to afford the plane...

How about "Aopa's Supercub.org" or "www.eaa.supercub.org"... Nah, I'd sell the plane first.

Weiner payments are not quite paying all the sc.org bills yet, but we are certainly making progress.

Seriously if you want to pay another way electronically, send an email to me with the amount and I will send you an on-line payable credit card bill not using paypal.

THanks!

sj

[cobblemaster]

. I just think the credit for most "their" STC's needs to go where it belongs, Alaska, not Yakima

How do you want them to give AK credit? A disclaimer on there STC? I section on their website thank AK? Payment to the super oil fund? At least they are out getting stuff STCd.

[FlipFlop]

. I just think the credit for most "their" STC's needs to go where it belongs, Alaska, not Yakima

How do you want them to give AK credit? A disclaimer on there STC? I section on their website thank AK? Payment to the super oil fund? At least they are out getting stuff STCd.

How's that old saying go?... Something about imitation being the best form of flattery...

[Crash]

Cobblemaster, the stuff was STC'ed before Jim Richmond could spell Super Cub. Just go the the FAA site for STC's and you will see the original STC was dated some time in the 70's or 80's by an Alaskan and under it you will see an almost identical STC for Cub Crafters dated mid to late 90's. You guys jumped all over Cuby a while back for trying to copy an Atlee Dodge long step for an experimental. Now its OK to copy an entire airplane and copy over someone elses hard work (STC's) so you don't have to pay any royalties. Richmonds are what they are. Nice to their customers $$$ yes. Climb over others to get what they want, yes. If they were straight up they would have purchased the STC's from the original holders, and bought the TC from Piper. Walk a mile in the other guy's shoes. Crash

[cubdrvr]

Atta boy Crash !! :up

Sheep must taste good...............20,000 coyotes can't be wrong

[diggler]

delete

[westwind]

Well stated Crash, using alterior means to achieve one's objectives has never been good Karma............

[SJ]

I'd like to learn a lot more about the process, protection, and development of STC's as it is a very interesting subject. I would guess that based on this discussion they are not patentable, or at least no effort has been made in that regard. If they are, and there is a valid gripe then CC could be sued for directly copying them (if that is what they did), right?

If you strip away the emotional side of it, what really makes up the rights to STC's, etc?

sj

[highroads]

I bought my PA 12 from Cub Crafters three years ago and could not be happier with my decision. I for one am glad they are around to provide the services they do. I have found them to be not only up front and honest but always willing to help with any questions I or my mechanic have had. As far as pricing, hey thats what capitalism is all about, buy value,buy cheap or don't buy, but you won't have any surprises with Cub Crafters and that is real value when working with airplanes.

[PA12driver]

Crash and others, If you look hard enough you will see that a lot of innovation also comes from Montana, Idaho, Colorado, and yes Even Oregon and Washington. Granted a lot of mods were done in Alaska, most of which were done either by "one time" STC" or the "original" FA process. I think it is fair to say that there are quite a few of the original STC's that were done fairly "loosely" to say the least" I think we (that have built a few" would agree if you followed the drawings to the "letter" you would end up with doing a set of wings twice and or wear out a few grinding wheels on a fuselage? Granted alot of the challenge comes from the "loose tolerances" that the cubs were built by (+-1/8 or a 1/4) in some cases?? Also many components of the earlier cubs were built "without jigs" by craftsman that knew what would work and what wouldn't.

In Richmonds defense, many of his, charley Centers, and other current builders are now using materials and equipment that are far superior to that of the 50-80's.

I think Jim would have gladly purchased the TC from Piper if they weren't such Dicks about it! The cost to STC anything today is astronomical, (Ask Bill firman or attlee, or Bill Dunkin, or anyone else that is (actually going through the process.

Thanks to the buerocratic crap at the FAA, the legal system and those "citizens" that are suing everyone that they can!

Sorry for the Rant, but I wanted to put my weiner worth in! besides I have been sidetracked for a while.

(Oh by the way if anyone cares---Crashes PA18 'topcrash' is every bit as nice as at 'topcub'! (sure would like to see some pictures Crash)

Tim

[wilbur]

Conratulations Steve! Yaahoo, you've got to be excited! Am curious as to what the cruise will be with the other prop (what size?). Can't wait for the pics.

[K.S.]

I wonder how the new Taylorcraft company can produce a 180 hp plane with comparable standard equipment for half the price of a CC Topcub?

Don't get into the whole mess of it not being a Cub cause obviously it's not but the component costs and construction costs can't be too far apart. I would sure like to fly a 180 hp T-crate and see how it compares...

[SJ]

Thanks, Wilbur.

K.S., It is a good question you ask. The factory O360 engine alone is close to $30K isn't it?

Not sure about STC's for floats, skis, bushwheels, extended baggage, outside loads, extra fuel, etc. on the tcraft...

sj

[K.S.]

Steve, 42 gal fuel as standard, I think they have stc for 72 in the wings. 200 lb. baggage std. Floats, skis and tundra tires were not a problem on previous models...

I just think it sounds like a hell of a bargain.

[SJ]

It sure does to me also, sorta like the Maule is a bargin maybe?

sj

[K.S.]

We better be careful, talking in a positive manner about any thing but Cubs could get us black listed.

[CrossedControls]

SJ (He of the mile wide grin)
Regarding patents
I would guess that based on this discussion they are not patentable, or at least no effort has been made in that regard If the STC's were protected by patents, the ones discussed would have run out. It's my understanding that patents only offer protection for 20 years.

Pete
PS congrats on the new arrival.

[floats]

Steve,

Congratulations! Sounds like a great airplane!

Where are you going to get your insurance training? You posted above that you are coming to Florida. I've got a friend that is an instructor using his 2002 Top Cub on Amphibs - advanced seaplane instruction - instrument - GPS navigation using Garmin 530. Take a look at his web site at www.ronbulladventures.com. Take a look at the photo of his panel!!
The photo of the Top Cub sitting on the shoreline through some trees was taken on our beach.

He is based part time here at my seaplane base in Central Florida, I have waterfront cabins with tie-downs for pilot lodging. www.oakharbor-rv.com
You ought to make a trip down here in it for Sun n' Fun. We have a good fly-in during that week.

I'll bet you can hardly sleep at night knowing that thing is in the hangar, must be great.

Gregg Anderson

[sjohnson]

I'd like to learn a lot more about the process, protection, and development of STC's ....patentable, ... If they are, and there is a valid gripe then CC could be sued for directly copying them (if that is what they did), right?

In general, STCs have little legal protection against copying. Patents give the holder exclusive rights to make and use an invention, but to get one, the invention must be new - not done before. This implies that it would be pretty hard to get a patent on something like a baggage compartment, although it might be possible to get a patent on some improvement to a baggage compartment that had never been done before. Also, using the invention in public, making it for sale, or publishing it more than a year before filing for a patent makes the invention unpatentable. Given both the novelty requirement and the bars to patentability, nearly all the Cub STCs appear to be unpatentable. Even if they were patented when the idea was new, the patents last only (roughly) 17 years from issuance - lifetimes in hi-tech electronics contexts, not very long in airplane contexts.

In the rare case where a really new idea is the subject of an STC, economic considerations weigh heavily. STCs generally cover low volume products and patents are expensive to acquire and maintain. Acquiring a patent may eat much of the profits from an STC. Also, patents are publicly disclosed: about 18 months after filing, the patent application is published by the patent office (there are exceptions) and the final patent is published at issuance. A patent is required to be clear enough to enable a skilled person to reproduce the invention. A determined copier can copy much of the product from the patent; then, the patent holder must initiate a lawsuit to get him to cease copying and perhaps collect damages - all very expensive. The result is that some inventions for aircraft are not patented because the payback isn't worth the cost - yes, this decision happens in real life.

It's probably legal, but is it immoral to copy an STC? Well, society has chosen to protect novel inventions, but not STCs. My understanding is that the biggest barrier to copying an STC'ed product is that one has to generate his own engineering data -but, it's a lot easier when you already know what the final design will be. In any case, there are no specific rules or laws restricting anyone from copying a product that's been STC'ed, presumably because they aren't necessarily inventions (covered by patents) and one has to spend the money and jump through the FAA regulatory hoops again. Despite some folk's heartfelt revulsion against the practice, there doesn't seem to be widespread support for limiting copying of STC'ed products. There is always the opportunity to get Congress to change the laws in this area.

Still awake? I hope this clarifies more than it obscures :morning:.

Steve

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer - this is not a legal opinion. Reliance on this opinion may result in serious harm to your wallet.

[RedBaron]

Too Nice. Too heavy. Too Expensive.
That's why I don't own a Top Cub. Plus all the things that Crash said. If I was GIVEN one, I'd just sell it and buy a SuperCub. Up here a Cub is a workhorse, a Tundra Tractor, into which you throw bloody meat, hides, salted capes, etc. That fact and the correlating price of a TopCub might be partially why guys that work them don't have them. And the gripe that Crash mentioned is a valid one as well. For a guy to come to Alaska, buddy up with people making Cubs, and then go away and copy their mods just doesn't sit well with honest, hard working, perpetually broke Alaskan cubbers. If we were really smart (like the REAL pilots, flying 747s) the Price wouldn't be on the list of problems.
There's my opinion. I'm sure the Richmonds are fine representations of American Capitalism, as well as likely being splendid folks. And I'm sure they have a fine product. But I'll bet you they'd be the first to admit, People like me are NOT they type of People they were targeting as Potential Customers. And people like me comprise most of Alaskan Cub owners.

Andy

PS. Congratulations Steve. Hope your TopCub serves you well. You gonna bring it up sometime? :P

[sjohnson]

More STCs and patents:
At the rest of being pedantic, there is another consideration to copying STCs: if the new product is a variation of the old product, however small the change, so that the FAA wants new engineering data, it makes almost NO SENSE to buy the old STC from the original owner. The engineering and tests will have to be redone anyway, so the old STC provides almost no economic value.

So from my point of view, the only time it makes even moral sense to buy the old STC is when: the original idea was truly novel, the owner could have patented it and didn't because of the economics, it is still within 17 years or so of the introduction of the original STC, and the new product is nearly identical to the old such that the engineering data is still valid. I suspect that most of even CC's 'copy' STCs do not fall into this category.

Cheers,
Steve

PS - I'm not an employee of CC, nor am I a big fan. CC has evolved to be primarily interested in selling whole airplanes. Other suppliers seem to serve the parts and pieces market (and me) better.

[Fortysix12]

tom,

You ask a simple question to get some airplane advice and The Janitor hogs your Spot light. You think he'd been trying to have a baby for last 20 years and just got pregnant. Don't take that personally Dana. But now seriously is that fair? Just kidding of coarse.

[pak]

Some of my heartburn with them is the unrefunded subscriptions to the SCPA, which is now defunct.pak

[diggler]

deleet

[RedBaron]

Diggler,

Check your PM.

Andy

[SJ]

I hope Tom got his questions answered. I knew that by buying a top cub I was headed for some controversy, but I'd rather fly that than a C180 since it is more fun. It may not be my last cub, and it is not my first, but I believe it will suit my needs very well - which as was pointed out, are quite different than folks in the 49th.

I believe we have had a relatively level headed and fair discussion of the cub crafters situation and I appreciate everybody being truthful without bashing each other about too much.

I am not going to become a champion for any one builder, rebuilder, or aircraft. It is not my job on this site. What I bought (or borrowed as it were) was my personal choice for what was good for me, not for anyone else (except maybe my wife, although she really would like a Lear). We all have different needs, and desires.

I have five or six weight and balances for different configurations. The plane was weighed by the guy who annualed it who felt like it needed to be done.

As delivered by CC, N994CC with a Sensenich, Goodyear 26", and no belly pod: 1206.6lbs (but with all the gear pumps, and other amphib stuff)

With the belly pod, some fuel steps, and the belly pump: 1244.7

Now, my "other" cub with no flaps, 135hp, and bushwheels weighs in over 1100lbs, in fact, I think it is 1155 if I remember right, so it must have some lead in it somewhere.

Finally as Crash said in another post, your gonna fly these planes loaded up. Yes, if you have a 1000lb cub you can load up 200 more pounds than I can (legally). That will be my penalty for cushiness, having to stay trim and slim, and carry less gear - I'll accept that for now, maybe I won't someday when I have seen the light..

Thanks again for all your comments, this was a good thread!

sj

[Rookie]

PM me if you want to know why I didn't buy an airplane from Cub Crafters. Good luck to all in all your airplane purchases.

[SJ]

Ok, here are the pics people requested.. I wish I could say this were my hangar, but it is not...

http://www.supercub.org/albums/Supercubs/cka.thumb.jpg
Click Link Below For the BIG Picture
http://www.supercub.org/albums/Supercubs/cka.jpg

http://www.supercub.org/albums/Supercubs/ckb.thumb.jpg
Click Link Below For the BIG Picture
http://www.supercub.org/albums/Supercubs/ckb.jpg

sj

[cubdrvr]

Some of my heartburn with them is the unrefunded subscriptions to the SCPA, which is now defunct.pak

pak.........that was a sore spot with me also and I paid for 2 years. However, Nathan was kind enough to offer me a refund which I had them send directly to www.supercub.org ........I had to ask for the refund but there was no problem in getting one.

[PA12driver]

SJ,

I blew the photos up to as large as I could and the only thing I saw missing or (possibly) mis located was the "PUSH TO CALL FLIGHT ATTENDANT" button??? Again, congratulations!

Tim

[SJ]

Tim,

All you have to do is turn off the cabin heat and they come running...

sj

[diggler]

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[Rookie]

At least as far as PA-18s go, it doesn't sound like you have anything to worry about anymore Dana, Steve's already got a (the) dream plane. Man, I would trade my left something or other to have a set of amphib floats and the extra 30 ponies to pull them.

Congrats!

Hey, what do you know: CC has a new plane up, with a much more complete description. Maybe they are listening!

Even if they aren't, good for them, I'm glad they are out there helping to pull the values of all PA-18s up.

[cubdrvr]

Dana.........you deserve something more respectable on your weiner....... :o

[Icecub]

Congratulations, Steve!.....and Dana too!

The airplane of our dreams!
We are rebuilding one up here which will have similar configuration. We are not sure which prop to select. What are the figures you're getting in cruising speed? (IAS @ RPM) Is the prop 82-41?

[Gunny]

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[diggler]

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[Icecub]

CC is selling Sensenich 76-56 as a "cruise" prop for their 180 hp conversion. It would be interesting to have comparable figures for the Sensenich versus the Borer in 41, 42 and 43 in pitch. Anyone ...?

[flagold]

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[Crash]

Sneak a 84/43 Pawnee prop on that 180hp Cub and it will really perform. Crash

[flagold]

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[wilbur]

Steve- Just saw the picture- you dog!

[SJ]

Woof!

sj

[Aviator]

Tom, my observations on CC:

http://supercub.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=17850&highlight=&sid=61d3cdc04773b54dc2219e21987c0670#17850

S.F.
Nick

[S2D]

Gyrene:
If someone crossed out "Tundra" on the STC, that is illegal. That is an unauthorized alteration to the STC certificate. Call the FAA and Report it to them if you have a problem.

[Aviator]

Gyrene:
If someone crossed out "Tundra" on the STC, that is illegal. That is an unauthorized alteration to the STC certificate. Call the FAA and Report it to them if you have a problem.

Thanks, S2D. I didn't know that. I just might get their views on this.

S.F.
Nick

[CubLite]

Steve:

You could have blown me over with a feather when I read your post on the TOPCUB purchase. Is the 170 gone too? Fly down here and let me have a look. We'll park it next to my ole J-3 dog and really make it look great.

Pat

[SJ]

Pat,

I'll do it! I guess you survived the Baltics!

As I said, I am in the gusto grabbing mode. Also, I am selling all other assets. The 170 is already sold, 197T is going going... I am also going to sell my liver and kidneys in advance.

sj

[tempdoug]

steve, you just as well get it on here, equipment list and mods, your going to end up doing it anyway!

[S2D]

As I said, I am in the gusto grabbing mode. Also, I am selling all other assets. The 170 is already sold, 197T is going going... I am also going to sell my liver and kidneys in advance.

sj

Personally Steve I think you're nuts. For the price you probably paid you could have put a 180 HP conversion on your 170 (if its a B and doesn't have one already) and traded your SC for a 160 hp SC and had two great airplanes.

[SJ]

No way. I did all the math, and remember, I bought this "used" so I did not pay CC's price. The cub alone was priced below other "freshly" rebuilt ones in TAP with 150hps.

Having said that, I may very well still be crazy, I just don't think you can tell from me doing this.

sj

[Steve Pierce]

You know what it cost to pay someone to do all the mods and repairs on your other SC. Your no dummy or you wouldn't be where you are.

[diggler]

ddlete

[Crash]

Steve: the plane looks great. The one in my hanger looks just like it. If I ever make it down to New Holstein we can park them side by side and look like Bobsy twins. The only thing that keeps me from flying down to the New Holstein fly in is all the rules. No dogs, no guns, no drinking, no screwing, no cussing. I can abide with most of the rules, but the no dogs or guns rule holds me back. If you could change them to "no small yappie dogs" and no "full-auto guns" (or just limit the amount of amunition one can bring) then I'll be down next year. Crash

[SJ]

Crash,

We might be able to accomodate you. Boz's dog came the prior year, and then when he chased a Meyers down the runway, and he was sent home.. "Moose" was outrunning the Myers by the way.

How about "no sidearms visible", or no "cowl mounted automatic weapons", would that be more accomdating. I would make an exception for anyone flying down from your neck of the woods.

Would that be OK?

sj

[S2D]

If you rebuilt your 135 cub with new 180 engine, airframe, wings, etc. Did the mods with your avionics package etc. Pay the labor bill at 55.00 per hour. Then sell the left over parts from the 135 cub= you are money ahead buying this plane period. I think you did good.

Don't get me wrong-- You no doubt have a great plane--Macho plane to go with those macho tires :cheers and I'd never consider converting a 105 special to 160 hp or 180 hp w/flaps and coming out ahead ( I did say trade it). You undoubtedly got exactly what YOU wanted for a great price. (does that mean the resale value of cubcrafter cubs isn't so good??) That just wouldn't be my cup of tea. probably why you're flying those new airplanes and I'm still flying a couple of junkers.

[Crash]

OK, OK, I'll take the guns off my plane as long as I can carry one or two on my person. It's usually OK as long as I don't get drunk, even then if I pull them out and start shooting around the place. Everyone gets down and after I run out of ammo, someone takes away the guns and we all have a big laugh. See you next summer, by the way, my dog's name is Yuki, like the river south of Ruby. Crash

[SJ]

S2D,

I think you (and a few others) hit the nail on the head. The value of these supercubs seems to make about as much sense as the dot com startup stocks of a few years ago (yes, it has been a few years).

It is all perceived value, just like a vacation in a nice hotel vs motel 6, which one makes a nicer vacation depends on your values.

It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out some day, but with a new 172 SP with nice avionics at $195,000, maybe $165,000 for a new 180HP CC is not that out of line? I'm also part of a 18 member club trying to make the decision to dump a 1976 172 and upgrade to a 2003 - a $150,000 upgrade and we get - a 172... albeit with 180hp, full auto pilot, leather, etc... It is all about where your values are - as we are discovering.

sj

[S2D]

Well one thing about it Steve, if you take those toe brakes out of your old SC and put in your new, you can pretend you are flying a Husky. :anon

[SJ]

HA! I would still need the CS prop, which I think is what gives the husky the market edge on new sales...

I HATE toe brakes in taildraggers anyway. But that is just me.

sj

[Cub junkie]

Im with Diggler if I see another Super Cub with a J-3 paint job Im gonna hurl. Im jell-ass Steve, congratulations.

[Gunny]

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[SJ]

I gotta say, the yellow is highly visible. Jeff Jones' original 94 was real easy to spot on the New Holstien scud-o-rama fly out we did, plus we sent him ahead since he knew how to use his radios. A friend of mine has a yellow and black Husky that is even brighter and easier to spot. Although I do like the two tones, especially with white/dark blue, visibility wize you can't beat yellow - except with maybe hot pink.

Are you guys barfing at the yellow, or the lighting bolt?

sj

[Gunny]

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[Cub junkie]

Gunny, I apoligize, I didnt mean to hurt your feelings. I like yellow myself, I just feel like if you drop 150 large an a Top Cub it should look like it, not a replica of a paint job Piper put on an aircraft that sold for 995 in 1939. Ill try not to be so insensitive in the future. I like green corvettes too.

[Roger Gross]

Gunny,

I'd fly with ya anytime and could care less what color your super cub is as long as you (the owner) liked the color. Hell, I'd paint mine pink if I could be test flying in two weeks.

Later, Roger

[Gunny]

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[Steve Pierce]

Those colors fade fast. Ever seen a T6 out of South Africa. Got a chartreuse green glasair around here. I hate the color but I would fly it. Paint it what ever color you like and f#$@ everyone else, it's yours and you pay the bills and you can paint it any color you want. A woman in Ft. Worth got a pink Cessna 150 from Mary Kay. She had a hell of a time selling it.

[Steve Pierce]

I don't remeber them. I heard it went pretty cheap though.

[aceherks]

:D I like the yellow with black lightning bolt paint job so much that that I've got two. I used to have a lime green 1953 but I sure like the yellow the best. Ted

[cobblemaster]

Gunny, did you buy your cub from cubcrafters?. I remember one that looked alot like it a few years ago for sale at CC. Plane was a ex MN state aircraft.

[Gunny]

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[cobblemaster]

Why did you decide to rebuild?

[Gunny]

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[Rookie]

You're getting it built to your spec, which counts for a lot. Even if you exceed market pricing for the description of the plane, you will have what you want, so the market is truly just one, and you can say it's worth any price you like.

Sounds like it will be quite the trick airplane.

(Been there, done that, on a house remodel.)

[Gunny]

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[PA12driver]

Dang Gunny! you are cutting to the core! ) Color is a personal choice.....I happen to think red Corvettes are boring and ugly but I don't go around dissin red Corvette owners. Mine was metalic green with light tan leather interior.

My 62 corvette would look really ugly in 70's metalic green! But I am sure yours looks great, what year is it?

All cubs should be Red!

Tim (good choice SJ)

[Gunny]

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[mvivion]

Back to the STC/Patent question, there is an interesting case involving a spar AD on the Lake amphibian. Lake developed a fix to comply with the AD, someone else also developed a fix to comply with the AD. Lake patented their fix, and sued the other outfit for patent infringement.

Lake's fix costs orders of magnitude more money than the competition, even though both meet the FAA's requirements.

It's an interesting case. Read up on the Wright Brothers. They sure were patent happy guys, and sued everyone else who flew, nearly, for patent infringement.

As to a lot of the Alaska mods, I don't think Atlee STC's much of anything these days, since everybody kept copying his stuff, and photocopying his stc's (you don't have to have an original of the paperwork to keep the FAA happy).

I don't blame him. Make the parts, and let someone else go through the pain in the butt. Course, these days, field approvals are nearly extinct, so......

Mike V

[PA12driver]

Gunny,

I was just giving you a hard time cause I can! I trip over my 62 everyday and there are those that see it parked under the wing of my cub and (don't even comment on the cub) "the dope is faded and the tires are to big". Guess I keep it just for nastagia? There are few things that are "toys" that appreciate, Cubs, Harleys and Vettes. That is at least how I convinced Mama (just kidding) she likes them all cause it makes me happy!

Back to the STC/Patent thing? I did follow the lake debackel and found it really strange that with all the history of STC's that the courts favored Lake on the Patent infringment??

I think we are going to see less and less STC's issued for "cub type planes" as the cost and time to get it done is going out of sight and like someone said "cub pilots are cheapskates" (as a whole) and or at least not of the mindset to spend $600 for a map pocket!

Tim

[pak]

Cheapest part in an Alaskan Supercub is the pilot 8) .pak

[Nathan Richmond]

Hello everyone . . . looks like I am late to the party!

First - thanks everyone for your kind thoughts . . .

As for Cub Crafters take on the STC/TC issue . . . think building permit . . . If you see someones house and you want one like it, you talk to your architect (read Engineer) and then you submit the plan to the local building department for review (read ACO office). If you have done your homework, you will be issued a building permit (read STC). That is all there is to it. Actually producing the parts and selling them is another story, but for the paperwork that is all there is to it.

Patents are certainly available for a Super Cub, but the cost far outweighs the benefits. To my knowledge there are no patents on any Super Cub mods.

For the record, there is not now, and never has been any legal action against Cub Crafters by Piper.

And rookie. . . i'd kindly ask that when you recount stories of us trying to "take advantage" of you, that you remind everyone that you backed out of your sales agreement, and that there was absolutely no problem refunding your money. That airplane did indeed have horrible logs. It was the only "kit" airplane ever delivered by Piper. It was sent to Columbia of all places and assembled there. Because Piper decided against the kit program, it was not able to be certified, so somehow it became a complete rebuild with 100% new parts. The engine was not new and you were informed. mechanically that airplane was as close to perfect as you can get - had it had good logs it would have sold for an additional 20K.

We try hard . . . but it is impossible to make everyone happy every time. We make every effort to make Super Cub ownership a pleasing experience!

[Rookie]

PM me if you want to know why I didn't buy an airplane from Cub Crafters. Good luck to all in all your airplane purchases.

[Speedo]

Aaaagh. Life has enough bitterness as it is. Please take acrimonious comments off line.

[Psychonaut]

hi,

as nathan has droped by i would like to ask a question. I hope that is not too OT but that is a TC thread after all :-) So here it goes @nathan:

1) how is it going with the "cub light". Any Status? What are the main differences to the TC? Just the engine? How about fuselage, Wings + Flaps? All the same as with the TC?

2) What are your intention for the european market? Do you have a german/european distributor? Are you thinking of getting the cub light certified in germany or are you waiting for something similar to the LSA class in germany? There are disussions right now to establish something similar to LSA (MTOW 520-560 KG)

3) Do you have any intentions of different engine options for europe? Especially in the 100-125 HP class wich would fit the cub light, there would be some alternatives for here. Remember the high costs of avgas over here....:-(

Mirko

[SuperCub MD]

I think there was a really nasty sounding new legal disclamer on the last few Cub Crafters STC's I have installed that I don't remember being there before. Has people stealing Cub Crafters data become a increasing problem?

[PA12driver]

Mark, Could you post the STC disclaimer?? Should not be a problem as it is only an STC not a patent.

I know that many STC holders are requiring an "original signature" of the holder and an "raised" seal in order for the STC to be valid. (Atlee is one of them.

Tim

[S2D]

Last STC I bought had my aircraft N# and S/N stamped on the STC along with a bunch of other disclaimers. Technically that is illegal, cause it says any alteration of the STC form is illegal and subject to bunches of penalties. Although I don't think The FAA gives a rat in that case.. Newer STC's have a section that says it is only good when specifically approved for each owner. So now not only do you have to keep a copy of the STC in your aircraft records, you have to keep a copy of the approval too.