Logbooks, BFR's, etc.

Normally I renew my CFI by flying with a nearby DE every 2 years. Time was short this year so I renewed with Jeppesen online. That took care of the renewal but not my BFR. Here is my question for the statisticians in the group..........If you no longer keep a logbook ( I quit in the mid 80's)
I know any piece of paper will document BFR's, ROE requirements, etc. but if they get misplaced, or unable to find......say in an accident......how do the FAA and the insurance companies look at this. Do they assume you have not completed the requirements? Anyone know of insurance not paying because of this?

How about A/C and engine logs? If they are destroyed ( say in a home fire) is the aircraft grounded until all needed documentation has been again proven to the FAA? Anyone have personal experience with this?

cubdrvr said:

FAA look at this. Do they assume you have not completed the requirements?

How about A/C and engine logs? If they are destroyed ( say in a home fire) is the aircraft grounded until all needed documentation has been again proven to the FAA?

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According to the local FSDO...

They assume that you cannot show that you have met the requirements...

No records = No proof of AD compliance, annual inspection status, etc... Requirements for operation...

Wouldn't the instructor that gave you the BFR have it in their logbook?

Tim

behindpropellers said:

Wouldn't the instructor that gave you the BFR have it in their logbook?

Tim

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Not necessarily, the only required proof is the documentation given to the BFR'd pilot...

It is always interesting that " written" proof if only on a piece of toilet paper is ok, but your spoken word is worth "zero".

Steve's Aircraft (Steve) said:

It is always interesting that " written" proof if only on a piece of toilet paper is ok, but your spoken word is worth "zero".

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Might be from dealing with people who didn't speak the truth... On the other side of the coin, if "they" ask you for written proof of something, ask "them" to show you in writing where it says you have to...

Cuby said:

behindpropellers said:

Wouldn't the instructor that gave you the BFR have it in their logbook?

Tim

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Not necessarily, the only required proof is the documentation given to the BFR'd pilot...

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if memory serves me correct, CFI's are required to keep a record of certain endorsements for 2 years. Solo and BFR are two of them. Steve should know (so should I) he does a lot of this????

Cuby said:

behindpropellers said:

Wouldn't the instructor that gave you the BFR have it in their logbook?

Tim

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Not necessarily, the only required proof is the documentation given to the BFR'd pilot...

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I believe an instructor has to keep records of BFR's. I do. I keep records and times of all BFR's that I give.

Torch

61.51 (A) Training time and aeronautical expericene. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(I) Presentation of required documents.
(1) Persons must present their pilot certificae, medical certificate, logbook or any other record required by this part for inspection upon a reasonable request by
(i) The Amdministrator
(ii) NTSB
(iii) Federal, State or Local law enforcement officer.
I actually witnessed my old instructor 35 years ago (his pilot certificate was #4022) get asked for his pilot certificate by a California Hiway Patrolman, he was buzzing his house in a 1928 Travel Air biplane, and got caught by the CHP.......no further action was taken.

61.56 Flight review. (c) (2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifyting that the person has satisfactorily completed the review.

61.189 Flight instructor records
(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
(c) Each flight instructor must retain the records required by this section for at least 3 years.

From the above post it sounds like we all need a logbook of some sort........not just a piece of paper.

After my collision at Sun & Fun the FAA and the NTSB just asked for my time and when my last BFR was. I had to send a copy of the BFR sign-off and a copy of the last annual inspection from the airframe and engine logs. I wasn't keeping up with my flight time very well but it could always be substainiated by my aircraft logs.

I made photocopies of the aircraft and pilot logs and keep them in a file at my office. That way I have them at two different locations. I don't want to lose my plane's logs and suffer the consequences of reduced value. It's easy to copy or scan this stuff to a disk for safe keeping.
SB

Very good idea.

Another thing to keep in mind if a A/C logbook gets destroyed or lost, A huge portion of it can be recovered by ordering the CD of your A/C from Oklahoma city...probably the first thing the feds are going to do in the case that you have an accident and have "trajectly" lost your logs around the same time!

If you have a stock no damage history Cub either you have : a) a Cub that's never been flown. Or b) bought your Cub from someone that lies and did not record all the repairs mods or alterations
All kidding aside... my cub has a stack of 337s etc... (as I'm sure most do) That make getting the CD a great idea...just a greenhorns 2 cents worth

Supercubber said:

The only way the FAA CD is going to show aircraft and/or engine times is when STC's, Form 337's or major repair work is done and then will only reflect times up to the point of modification.

If you have a stock, no damage history cub you will not find any times listed on the CD. 8)

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There is no spot on the 337 for total time. So unless a person types in the total time on the back, which I started doing quite a while ago. there will be nothing in the FAA records to indicate A/C total time.

Supercubber, ouch!!! she might be a 45k rag...but she gets me in the air and gives me just as much fun as the guys flying the 160k CC cubs?

Getting back to the thread though...you're right the cd doesn't help putting the time factor back to the logs, I just thought it might be usefull info to someone who might not know? ...goes back to that me being a greenhorn thing....

BTW just got back from AK lastnight in the 45K rag....and it was a blast 8)

Prior to 1955 or 1956 all A/C had to submit paperwork yearly which included total time of the A/C to obtain a new airworthiness certificate. If you get the CD from the FAA it includes these applications for airworthiness.