Presidential TFR questions

[rrb]

I know that Presidential TFRs cause quite a bit of controversy, however without getting into the type of discussion which would dictate that this be moved to the rants and raves section, can anyone point me to the Presidential TFR situation before the Bush administration tightened the flight restrictions? Let's keep this discussion merely about the rules and not touch on the propriety or impropriety of the flight restrictions.

[SJ]

You're asking an awful lot there... 8)

Previously, there were 10NM restrictions like over camp david. What I think has changed the most is the SIZE of these things, and they fact that they stop all flights. When the president was in town in the old days, it did not stop us from flying.

sj

[rrb]

I know its a broad and open ended question and not one that lends itself to pure emotionless academics. During the campaign season of 2000 I was in Tallahassee, FL and do not remember any especially stringent specific restrictions facing us. As a matter of fact I remember taxiing past Air Force Two on my way to takeoff (it was parked away from other planes and had secret service guys guarding it.) I'm currently stuck underneath a presidential TFR in Nashville (not likely that I would actually fly today... school is keeping me too poor to do that as often as I would like.) I would just like to get a better grasp on the previous methods of presidential security with respect to general aviation. No matter what your views may be its difficult to effectively lobby for a position if you don't understand the background, policy alternatives, and current policy considerations.

[StewartB]

Maybe because of Elmendorf AFB, but when Bush was here, the restriction was only during arrival and departure times, plus an overflight restriction at Elmendorf while AF-1 was on the ground. Elmendorf is always restricted unless ATC sends you over, and they have the F-15's to enforce the restriction. We have a few MOA's up here where we share airspace with F-15's, who occasionally like to "play" with us. To see an F-15 coming right at you with the burners on is both awesome and frightening. An F-15 in a 4 or 5 G turn can leave some wicked wake turbulence. But it is cool to be awakened at daybreak by the sound of a sonic boom rattling your camp.
SB

[Anne]

During the campaign season of 2000

The 30NM presidential TFRs were put into effect as a result of the attacks on Sept 11, 2001. Before that, they were only 10NM radius. There also were no restrictions flying over stadiums, power plants, dams, etc., before 9/11.

Anne.

[Biggen]

StewartB,
President Of The United States (POTUS) TFRs are typically a 10NM flight restricted zone (nobody but military/law enforcement/secret service/medevac) with a 30NM "squawk and talk" ring around that. Occasionally, in an area such as Anchorage/Elmendorf where the 10NM ring would shut down immense amounts of traffic, the Secret Service will make an exception.

Was there traffic flying in and out of Merrill Field during the president's visit?

[jmkota]

While on the subject of TFRs, the disclaimer that Garmin provides with their XM modules, needs to be noticed.

At a pilot briefing put on by the BLM a few weeks ago in McCall on fire TFRs, in the room of about 30 to 40 people, 2 had experienced TFR info on their 396/496 that was not correct. There was an explanation of how the info goes through various places before it gets to your GPS, but the bottom line was that it could be incorrect. A rep from the FSDO made the comment that a violation of a fire TFR would go through the local FSDO office, however, a violation of a Presidential TFR doesn't go by way of the FSDO and goes way up the line.

Just this morning (9/24) a fire TFR (7/6355 by Council, ID) was still displayed on my 496 even though its been canceled for days.

Jack

[islandmonkey]

Guy's please don't take this post the wrong way. I know that after 9/11 any country and its allies would be doing its utmost to prevent a further incident and to protect its leader and the leaders of their allies.

When George came to Germany just over a year ago, He was attending a summit meeting in Mainz just under 20 NM away from my home airfield at Egelsbach just south of Frankfurt. This airport is the busiest GA airfield in Germany. While the President was in Mainz (over 24 hours) the airfield had to remain shut! Further, the citizens of Mainz were not allowed to look out the windows and all the schools and businesses were closed for the day. This cost Germany an arm and a leg to host this summit and loss of earnings to many large and small businesses in the local area. Needless to say this action caused a lot of bad feeling towards the American President in the area. I must add that this action was instigated solely by the German government.

[Snert]

I don't think they did this just for Bush. There were other foreign leaders there as well. They chose to host the summit.

[islandmonkey]

Snert said:


I don't think they did this just for Bush. There were other foreign leaders there as well. They chose to host the summit.


Agreed. However There have been other summits in the area that were not attended by the President and there were no such radical security measures taken then. Also Putin was in Munich recently this year, where he met the German Chancellor. Again there were no radical security measures taken for the Russian President.

I must emphasis, I do agree with these measures. It would be devastating for an ally of the USA, not to mention the US itself, if something happened to the US President whilst on a visit to and as a guest of that particular ally. Its just a pain in the backside when its on your own doorstep.

In Britain, there are/were "Purple Airways" these are restricted zones that surround The Queen's aircraft when she is on "walkabout" inspecting the state of the realm and her troops. Woe betide anyone flying into these areas uninvited.

[Steve Pierce]

He was in Memphis recently. The F18s had to escort a J3 that busted the TFR. :lol:

[Lasater]

I live in Fort Worth, so the Crawford TFR is always on my mind when I fly south. The only way I feel comfortable when the TFR is hot is to go IFR. If I am in a VFR only airplane, I go around it. I have spoken to a friend that gets the AOPA legal referrals, and he says that countless pilots have been violated for inadvertent TFR transgressions.

I hope the next president doesn't own a ranch in Texas. It has been a major pain.

[Steve's Aircraft (Steve)]

Personally, I do not agree with any of the Temp Pres. TFR's. They do not shut down auto traffic because he is around. Besides, if someone wants to cause trouble, they can do it with the blessings of the IFR system. One friend has quit flying because of the experience with our Gestapo from skimming the outer edge of one that he had no idea existed. The thing popped up after he left for home.

[Cubdude]

He was in Memphis recently. The F18s had to escort a J3 that busted the TFR. :lol:

Pictures?

[Rob Murray]

I notice that not many of those commenting live in the east where TFRs have become an annoying fact of flying. If you don't think they inpact GA try talking to the legal dept. of AOPA sometime. I remember a few years back, in somewhat less emotional times, when I landed on a lake in Up State NY only to discover that President Clinton was only a mile away on the opposite shore. I nervously called SYR FSS and asked if there were any flight restrictions. "Not that we know about", was the reply. I certainly wouldn't be so casual about checking NOTAMs today.

[Seaworthy]

When Phil Zinc had his fly in up in Maine, Both Bush 41 and 43 and Putin were in Kennebunkport. I was flying up from the south and called Boston ATC. I told them that I wanted to fly out to Laconia to make a wide berth around the TFR. They asked why. I replied that I didn't want any problems. They gave me a squawk code and I flew within fifteen miles of Kennebunk. On the way home on Sunday----the same drill, except they said I had to be out of the area within a half hour as there would be a presidential move. When I flew by Pease, I could see AF One out on the ramp. ATC was very accomodating and polite. On weekdays they wouldn't tell you if your shirt was on fire. I guess it depends on what crew is working.