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Dead Battery

P

PA-12 Super Cruiser

Registered User
I have a PA-12 and when I have an hour of take off and landings my battery goes has trouble charging. I think it is because of low idle during taxi with strobes, GPS, and intercom. I was wondering if this is common and how long it should take to get the battery charged back up or if there is a possible other problem.

Thanks,

Jeff
 
TO's and Ldngs should keep battery up ok. Is it charging at all? Make sure you have a good battery to start with then troubleshoot from there.
 
Super Cruiser dude:

Not turning on the landing lights are you? I found that I had to leave off my lights (or not turn them on for long) or I would loose charge before I installed an alternator. Remember your old bird has a generator, and it is just not as efffcient. Also, these aren't car batteries, they don't have the cranking amps and you can run them down pretty quickly.

If this is a "new" problem, Dave is right, it might be your battery, or the battery connections.

I also used to keep an automatic car battery charger in the hangar and put that on once in a while when things got weak.

Finally, a bad starter can sometimes act a lot like a bad battery.

sj
 
According to a friend that owns a battery distributorship, once a lead-acid battery is dead....it's dead. It'll never come back to original performance after you charge it. Have the battery tested by a battery shop. Better yet, put in a gel cell.
SB
 
I will look into all these things. It still has some juice. Just not enough go turn the prop over completly. When I am running at 1000 rpm it does show a + charge. I will hand prop it and burn some holes in the sky first and see what happens.
I have heard that you have to be cautious about charging an airplane battery? If I do should I trickle charge it?

Thanks,
Jeff
 
Jeff,

Does your PA-12 have a generator or an alternator? If yours has a generator I strongly advise you to have one of the new type alternators installed. Have youy checked the condition of the fan belt.
 
I went through a bought of this last summer... a new generator and regulator ( *damn* mechanic didn't listen when I said alternator, and decided to save me a few hundred $ instead) fixed the problem. When it fails again -- expected in 2020 -- I'll go for the alternator.
 
All good info above!

The only way you can test a battery it to 'put a load on it'. TAKE IT OUT OF THE PLANE BEFORE TESTING IT!!

The most often cause of "lead acid" battery failure is "overcharging" causing overheating and evaportion of the Acid/water. As a battery "Cycles" they will to some degree leave a Sulfate coating on the plates, over time this will cause the battery to "not retain a charge"

This is overly simplified, and leaving out a lot of detail, But I would suggest that you check in this order.

1) Battery water level
2) Battery cable connection (clean completely, "not just tight")
3) Charging circuit connections, both +positive, and -ground. (all connections to include the starter, solenoid, and Generator, alternator, and don't forget the Amp meter/Volt meter.

Here is a link to a good description of how batteries work and the hazards associated with them: http://www.4unique.com/battery/battery_tutorial.htm

Good luck!

Tim
 
From what I've seen, with the abuse they get, most lead acid A/C batteries last 3-4 years, then they are junk.
 
For what it's worth I use the Optimate charger http://www.accumate.co.uk/it010003.html It tests the state of the battery then tries to recover it if it is sulphated. The model I have is only good for up to 28AH batteries. I'm not sure what yours is, as my L18 doesn't have a big battery. It's good at keeping the battery in condition if you are not using it for a while. I use it on my bike when I don't use it over winter. One US source is http://www.cyborgcycles.com/batool.html

Regards
Pete
 
I disaggree with the alternator thing. I fly my cruiser an average of 80 hours a year with a full radio stack and a generator and similar flying conditions and have never had the first problem with the battery remaining fully charged. Save your money and find the real problem!
 
Jeff,

The "alternator thing" can be very real. For example, the generator provided as original equipment on my old Cub was a 12 amp generator. Turn on anything electrical to speak of, beyond the one radio, and there was a net drain on the battery. Using landing lights for more than a few moments was out of the question.

Then again, there are higher capacity generators as well, and if he has one of those, for example a 30 or 40 amp generator, as you note, it should do fine. Generators do have some advantages, as a matter of fact. For example, if you ever have a totally dead battery, and get the engine running by hand, the generator will recharge the battery. If you have an alternator in that instance, it'll never re-charge the battery, since the alternator requires field current from a battery to charge.

On the other hand, the advantage of alternators is that their charge rate is much less related to engine speed (they'll charge at low rpm, which a generator won't) and they are typically much lighter, for the output provided.

You're right, IF he got something more than a 12 amp generator. If he got one of those, he just isn't going to ever use much electrical stuff.

Mike Vivion
 
Jeff,

You are right as to fixing the "problem", It is only my recomendation to 'replace the Generator if it needs major work? As Mike said, unless the generator is capable of 30+ amps then it will likely not handle any significant load especially if a person spends any significant time "taxiing. A generator will not put out its rated capacity at much less then 2000 rpm. Another advantage (to some) to an altenator is that if a field switch is available, the pilot can shut it off for take off and get upward of another 5 hp on take off.

The technology available today with electronic voltage regulators and overvoltage relays, spike guards etc. are a great safety net for protectiong "full panel electronics" (something not available with "original wired cubs.

Tim
 
Thought I would spark up this old thread.. I'm having trouble with my charging system, I have a 20 amp generator and recently it stopped charging and showed a discharging condition on the ground and in flight. We checked all the connections, replaced some dodgy wiring, tested the generator and replaced the battery. Now on start up, sometimes on the ground it shows charging, then, just after takeoff it goes deep into discharging and stays there. I can turn off lights and everything and it will creep back just below zero but still in the negative. I'm at the point now where it feels time to pull the generator and go with the alternator, pull out the old wiring and move the electric to the panel (from the wing root, it still has original switches and breakers up there, vintage 50s stuff). Maybe something loose in the generator that gets vibrated in flight? I have no idea, the mechanics call it an FEP (frigging electrical phenomenon). Any ideas?
 
I would connect a digital voltmeter to the buss before I went to replacing everything. Your amp meteronly shows what you are using if it is wired correctly. Doesn't show what is going back to the battery. The problem with a generator is it has to turn some rpm before it will put out. If you can check voltage at the battery with generator putting out and at the buss it will help determine if the generator is putting out or not. i would make sure you have 12 volts to the regulator and then to the generator itself. I guess what I am saying is to troubleshoot everypoint in the system prior to changing components.
 
Poor ground on the regulator or sticking points was one of the most common problems with the generator system I used to have. Hook up a push switch jumper from Batt terminal to Field terminal on the regulator and with the engine turning about 2000 rpm, push the switch. Gen should put out full capacity.
 
Alternator

If you spin an alternator fast enough, even with a totally dead battery, it will throw the fields and start to charge. I did this once on a Caribou hunting trip. When I went to leave I noticed that I had left the master on for three days and the battery was dead as a door nail. I proped it and after getting some altitude I put it into a dive, wound it up to 2900 RPM and the power came on (radio, GPS etc.). It was something my dad told me a long time ago, came in handy. Crash

P.S. In my opinion, the best set up going for a Cub is a B&C L-40 with LR3 solid state linier regulator. Small, lite, and modern design.
 
If the voltage level of the battery drops below the point which keeps the master solenoid engaged, there is no easy way to close the solenoid unless charging the battery. Even though the alternator started making electricity for some reason.
If there is however enough charge left on the battery there is a way. Prop the plane, master switch on, get access to master solenoid. Short between the big terminals on the solenoid (give it a few seconds), if youre lucky the alternator starts charging.
This worked once for me, but another time I was to late.
 
If this is a 12, In the back of your airplane by the battery is a fuse block with two fuses check the connections very closely. Properly trouble shoot you generating system and it will continue to work fine. The Piper comanche service manuals have great details on how to trouble shoot the generator system. These manuals are great for all kinds of relative information that is common to the supercub and older pipers. Before I really knew better the first thing we did is put the interav alternator system on a twin comanche. Few years later got another one with generators and flew it 500 hours with generators. I like them. My supercub has an alternator, I like it. My 12 has a generator and its been perfect. Save your money and fix your generator.
 
One more thing. These aircraft came with aluminum cables, the terminals may have been replaced with copper, read corrosion between the terminal end and the connector. these wires also have a greater resistance when the warm up. Check voltages, get rid of the aluminum wires and go from there.
 
My experience be it cars, trucks, boats or airplanes. Purchase a new battery.
 
94SUPER18 is right. Those fuse holders create havok. Be sure they are clean. I have had a lot of charging problems associated with poor connection at the fuse block.
 
Also check master switch and gen switch. Had one that gave me weeks of trouble-shooting pleasure, and finally wound up being open contacts in one of those WWII MS- switches.

We had a Stinson with a 25 amp generator. It would not run for long with a tube-type Narco and the landing lights on continuously (my partner would not fly without those big lights on). It ate batteries at the rate of one every 18 months, probably due to deep-cycling.
 
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