I am planning on building up an experimental PA 18, but have the chance at picking up a PA 12 locally. Can anyone tell me if a Supercruiser can be modified to perform like a Super Cub (runway performance) and what it will entail? I realize that the addition of flaps is a given. Thanks, Joe
PA 12
- Thread starter j3jm
- Start date
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
j3jm,
The PA12 will never perform exactly like a supercub? The main difference is the Angle of incidence of the wing (mounting angle on the fuselage, also there are some minor differences in the ailerons, also the tail post/longerons/stabilizer mounting point is different then the 18 to balance the CG/trim with the wing. You should search the site for the topic, as much has been discussed about this issue. I am going to be building another cub project in the next year or so and I have concluded that the gain you have with the "internal room", however nice is not enough to warrant the work involved to make the plane perform like a SC.
That being said, it truly depends on what you consider performance? My PA12/160 will do 98% of what a SC will do and that is beyond what 99% of cub pilots do anyway with their planes? (this is not to brag, but truth is most pilots don't use their SC's to their potential for many reasons.
I am leaning toward building a "wide bodied" SC with external cargo pod, most likely licensed experimental, as resale is not a concern for me as the plane is a "toy" not a tool.
This all being said, you should thoroughly research your options with as many people as you can, (fly some modified cubs) and come to your own conclusion?
Good luck,
Tim
The PA12 will never perform exactly like a supercub? The main difference is the Angle of incidence of the wing (mounting angle on the fuselage, also there are some minor differences in the ailerons, also the tail post/longerons/stabilizer mounting point is different then the 18 to balance the CG/trim with the wing. You should search the site for the topic, as much has been discussed about this issue. I am going to be building another cub project in the next year or so and I have concluded that the gain you have with the "internal room", however nice is not enough to warrant the work involved to make the plane perform like a SC.
That being said, it truly depends on what you consider performance? My PA12/160 will do 98% of what a SC will do and that is beyond what 99% of cub pilots do anyway with their planes? (this is not to brag, but truth is most pilots don't use their SC's to their potential for many reasons.
I am leaning toward building a "wide bodied" SC with external cargo pod, most likely licensed experimental, as resale is not a concern for me as the plane is a "toy" not a tool.
This all being said, you should thoroughly research your options with as many people as you can, (fly some modified cubs) and come to your own conclusion?
Good luck,
Tim
Speedo
FOUNDER
TN
The PA-12 is a terrific plane - I've been really pleased with mine. Its door is easier to get in and out of, making it great for taking the kids flying or for putting gear in the back. I can make it do everything I want in terms of short field landings (to Tim's point, no doubt a better pilot could make it do even more). You can keep it stock or modify it heavily. There is plenty of documentation on the airframe, parts can be purchased or manufactured, and there are still competent mechanics to work on them. I've flown it coast to coast three times, including a trip to AK, and I've really enjoyed flying it.
Crash
GONE WEST
Nikiski Alaska
PA-12 vs PA-18
If the question is about building up a PA-12 or a PA-18, and having done one of each now (actually a PA-14 which is a 4 place PA-12) I can say the following...A PA-18 is at least 60% less work, has more STC'ed mods, has a better exhaust system, engine mount, airbox, engine cowls, trim system, fuel system, tanks, landing gear, jury struts, etc. etc.. PA-12's are 55 years old now so I would'nt even start one without a new fuselage and the only one available is a joke. After 55 years of repairs, everthing is wallowed out, pop riveted, welded and rewelded and generally jiggered up. I'd keep the data plate and throw the rest of the plane away and start from scratch. I don't like the only 180 hp conversion for a PA-12/14, the PA-18 has 3 different ones. I have a nice PA-14 but it was a ton of work and money most of it converted over to PA-18 stuff. My newly rebuilt (almost finished) PA-18 wasn't near as much work. Depends on rather you want to work on a project or go flying, and when you're done the PA-18 will sell quicker and for more than a PA-12. Just my honest opinion. Crash
If the question is about building up a PA-12 or a PA-18, and having done one of each now (actually a PA-14 which is a 4 place PA-12) I can say the following...A PA-18 is at least 60% less work, has more STC'ed mods, has a better exhaust system, engine mount, airbox, engine cowls, trim system, fuel system, tanks, landing gear, jury struts, etc. etc.. PA-12's are 55 years old now so I would'nt even start one without a new fuselage and the only one available is a joke. After 55 years of repairs, everthing is wallowed out, pop riveted, welded and rewelded and generally jiggered up. I'd keep the data plate and throw the rest of the plane away and start from scratch. I don't like the only 180 hp conversion for a PA-12/14, the PA-18 has 3 different ones. I have a nice PA-14 but it was a ton of work and money most of it converted over to PA-18 stuff. My newly rebuilt (almost finished) PA-18 wasn't near as much work. Depends on rather you want to work on a project or go flying, and when you're done the PA-18 will sell quicker and for more than a PA-12. Just my honest opinion. Crash
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
fuse.
Hi Tim,
I'm glad you guys had such a good trip to AK. Sounds like it was blast, still wish I
was up there. Let me know when I can start building that new fuse. with all the
right goody's. All kidding aside lets get our heads togethere. Wayne
Hi Tim,
I'm glad you guys had such a good trip to AK. Sounds like it was blast, still wish I
was up there. Let me know when I can start building that new fuse. with all the
right goody's. All kidding aside lets get our heads togethere. Wayne
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
Ditto!! And by the way guys, The 14 and the 18 Crash is building is as close to flawless as I have ever seen! The 14 is pretty but it flies and he flys it anywhere an 18 will go (it ain't a stock 14). Can't wait to see the performacnce of his 180hp light but tough PA18!!
Tim
PS: perhaps we can talk him into posting some photos (up close and personal of both planes?? especially the metal work??
Tim
PS: perhaps we can talk him into posting some photos (up close and personal of both planes?? especially the metal work??
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
Wayne,
You know you will be one of the first I will call on to help! I am going to start with the Fuselage so trust me it won't be too long before I get started! I informed the Wife that I was going back in a couple of years "with an 18" She asked when I was going to sell the 12? I told her when the 18 was finished? (it got kinda quiet as she slipped out for a trip to the mall----yike!
Tim
You know you will be one of the first I will call on to help! I am going to start with the Fuselage so trust me it won't be too long before I get started! I informed the Wife that I was going back in a couple of years "with an 18" She asked when I was going to sell the 12? I told her when the 18 was finished? (it got kinda quiet as she slipped out for a trip to the mall----yike!
Tim
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
the mall?
Tim,
If you can get away with this as simply as a few trips to the mall you are a lucky
man! Maybe you should drive her there. Wayne
Tim,
If you can get away with this as simply as a few trips to the mall you are a lucky
man! Maybe you should drive her there. Wayne
B
bearsnack
I have been flying a part 135 PA-12 with a 180 horse that was built by 2 highly skilled mechanics. PA-18 extended wings, flaps, 18 tail and all lightweight electrical and a long list of mods.
If you can afford to build this cub/12 hybrid I beleive it performs as well as any cub and affords the room. I fly this airplane on a daily basis and have had her in many compromising situations with large loads, it never fails to impress me.
If you can afford to build this cub/12 hybrid I beleive it performs as well as any cub and affords the room. I fly this airplane on a daily basis and have had her in many compromising situations with large loads, it never fails to impress me.
Fortysix12
Registered User
RanchAero Grand Vista, Brooksville
There is no substitute for power!NONE! I fly a Robertson STOL 400 (IO-720) Comanche and it also never fails to impress me!bearsnack said:
Fortysix12
Registered User
RanchAero Grand Vista, Brooksville
j3jm said:
Joe, The PA-12 is perhaps the best all around flying,well mannered taildragger on the planet. If I was going to build one it would be the 12. Did you know that you can buy the kit from canada now. Come to florida and fly my 12 or 18. Then make a decision. They both have good qualities. The reality is that 12 is much more comfortable for cross country flying. And if you do build one be sure to put lots of fuel on board ,cuz those horsies are thursty buggers. 38 gallons just aint enough. IF your like me,the only time you got to much fuel on board is when your on fire.
