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Buying a PA-12, what to look for?

Bill Rusk

BENEFACTOR
Sandpoint, Idaho
All

OK, I'm looking for a PA-12. There are a lot of mods out there and I don't have 100k, what should I look for? What are the most important mods and what are they worth? I have between 40 and 50K. Can I get a good PA-12 for this amount? I'm trying to build an airplane now so I need a flyer, and not a project, but I will be ready and willing to go through it in a couple of years and could recover and do some mods at that time. What do you guys think?

Bill
 
I just purchased a PA-12 two weeks ago for just a little more than the top of your range. This my first plane, as well as my first Piper, so I'm by no means an expert.

It came with the following mods:

Flaps
Extended wing tips
Crosswinds STOL leading edge
VGs
PA-18 tailfeathers
Float door
Welded float kit
Clevelands
O-320 engine
3" extended gear from A. Dodge
Was rebuilt in '99 with new fabric, paint and metalwork in frame
Radio, transponder and GPS

I added:
Shoulder harness
Intercom (had a battery powered one)
Sealed strut (on the side that didn't have it)
Remote oil filter

When I was looking, the O-320, flaps and tailfeathers were the important mods to have. I don't know the cost of the O-320, flaps were estimated at around 8K (depending on whether you already have the wing fabric off).

Also with the mods it's important to make sure that you have the right documentation. I spent two weeks tracking down holders of various STCs to get backup for a bunch of work that was done under 337s in AK. Several of the stated mods ('work done per STC blah blah blah') in fact were not done per the STC once I had the drawings and certificate. My IA is happy with the previous work (and it was already signed off once), so the additional documentation is just insurance.
 
Bill,
Given that you just want "a flyer," are you limiting the search to only a 12?
Most 12's have been modified to perform like a Supercub. The more modified, the higher the price (generally.) If that performance isn't the end-all to you, there's nothing wrong with a stock 12. There always seem to be some mostly stock, decent shape 12's in TAP for 35-40K. (Watch out for rusted airframes.) Most 12's will have Cub tails, flaps, gear, extended baggage, and bigger motors. When Piper produced the planes with none of these items and 108hp, they were good airplanes. They still are, if that level of performance suits your mission. If stock performance is okay, I'd include Aeronca Sedans in your search. Good performance, lots of room, and not too expensive.
SB
 
Bill ; What do you plan to do with the 12? Bush flying or airport to air port? The # 1 option eather way is ( in my opinion ) a o320 wiide deck low time .#2 recent cover #3 flaps , You should be able to get this much and a lot more in your price range if you look hard enough , this should be good for a lot of discussion :lol: the rest of the options you need depend on what type of flying you plan on doing .
Good luck in your search at any rate Dean James
 
I concur with Dean James. First define the type of flying you plan to do. That will determine which mods are most important to you. My plane has many mods, but those which I use the most include: SuperCub flaps and tail feathers, 160 hp, VGs, big tires (not tundra tires), and F.A Dodge fuel tanks. And, because we have many low visibility days here, I'm thankful I have the highest output wingtip strobes.

Basic avionics (com radio, transponder, and GPS), good fabric, and a good airframe are all givens.

Two items I wish I had: landing lights in the right wing and PulseLights.

One item I'm considering removing (at the next cover): booster wing tips.
 
Give my Neighbor Jerry a call, I believe he still has his PA12 for sale? It has a 0290 and I don't think it has flaps but does have many of the "necesity mods"??

Jerry (360) 666-2361

chk the GA flyer and Trade a plane, I think he still is advertising it?

Tim
 
Make sure it's not a heavy pig.
Make sure the mods are documented.
Make sure the workmanship is good.
Have an experienced guy look at it.
Be ready to walk away like you don't care if it's not what you need.

There are so many things to think about when buying any a/c. Get help from someone experienced with the type.

Dave Calkins.
 
Bill

Dave's first comment is very important. Remember that the last -12s rolled down the production line back in 1947...heck my parents weren't even around back then. and a good many of them have been balled up but good. If it is rebuilt right it will be good, but I have run across some that should not be flying...on the same token I have flown some that cosmetically look terrible, but fly like a dream. Also, with the whole 337 issue right now, documentation is extremely important, as all the A&P's and IAs will tell you (and listen to them, they are WAY more qualified to give advice than I am)

Bill
 
Marc,Dean,Dave and others

Thank you. I guess I should have been a little more specific. I have a wife and son that are OK for short hops but are not into long trips much. I currently have a C-170B which is a fine airplane but I guess I've always had Cub fever. But I gotta have 3 seats and as a result think the PA-12 with an 0-320 may be the ticket. The other mods could wait I guess but it sounds like flaps would be a good thing. I will put it on skis in the winter and would like to get it on floats someday. Since the flaps are plain and not fowler or sloted, do they really make that much difference? Why the tail mod? Does it make it lighter on the controls?, or just allow you to drive the wing to a higher AOA? I've heard the Dynafocal mount is a much smoother engine setup. Is this an option?

Thanks again for all the help. I've read most of this site and learned a lot.

Bill
 
The -12 wing is attached at a shallower angle to the fuselage. This makes the plane faster at cruise, but it also means that you have to pitch the nose up higher on final to get it stalled and on the ground. Adding flaps means you can pitch the nose down more for better visibility without increasing airspeed.

The -18 tailfeathers are larger giving you more effective rudder control.
 
Bill,

The PA 12 is well suited for a "short hop cruiser" for three as long as the "two" are fairly small. (your judgement there?) As for flap, If you expect to put your plane down and take off in 500ft or less (consistantly you should look for a 12 with flaps. the cost to you will likely be an addition of aprox $10k. I would say also the Tail mod is a requirement (as far as I know) for any PA12/14 with the upgrade to a 150/160 engine.

My suggestion is fine a few different configuration and fly um! (you will be able to tell if you like it, especially with your experience with the 170.

The PA12 is either a "puddle jumper" or a "close to a supercub" hauler!

Don't expect to get a "cheap supercub" by buying a PA12. That being said they don't call mine the freightliner for nothing (the interior room is a big plus)

Tim
 
PA12driver said:
That being said they don't call mine the freightliner for nothing (the interior room is a big plus)

Tim

Oh!... Now I get it!...

I thought it was called a Freightliner because it handled like a truck!...
 
PA-12 Cautions

PA-12's are now 56-57 years old, a long time for corrosion and poor maintenance to take their toll. Check the lower longerons especially at the tail post, all the lower fuselage cross tubes, the tubing around the door(s) especial the vertical below the rear spar attach point, the lower rudder, etc. If you find a plane you like, then find a qualified A&P or AI who really knows Cubs, someone who owns them or rebuilds. A lot of good mechanics don't have much experience with the old rage and tube planes. It would be cheaper to spend $1,000.00 to fly in a qualified mechanic for a day or so than to find you need to replace your fuselage 4 years later. Take it from me who is going through that experience right now with my PA-14. For what it is worth, I was looking at PA-12s (I also am married with one child) when my wife saw a PA-14 and said wanted the side-by-seating. She did want to ride in the back seat. All that said, if you find a good one, I doubt you'll ever regret your decision.
Robert
 
Look under "Tips and Tricks", there is a thread there called "PA12 Purchase advise", or something like that, that has some more info. There is also a lot of good PA12 info scattered about, doing a "search" for something specific should turn it up.
 
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