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No Electrics

Zooey

Registered User
Seattle
I live under Class B. FAR 91.215 (b) says I don't need a
transponder for an aircraft "not originally certificated with
an engine-driven electrical system". I'm interested in the
lightest possible PA-18/150. How many were built like
this by Piper? If you build a new one from parts, can you
get it certificated normal category as a 2003 model with
no electrics? How much lighter is a cub with no starter,
alternator, battery, relay, solenoid, regulator, bus bar,
breakers, switches, wiring, connectors, lights, or antennae?
How low can empty weight go with lightweight everything
and no upholstery and thin finish etc.?

--Zooey
Doing time in the city in a 7KCAB
But dreaming of Alaska
 
Hi Zooey---The lightest SC that I personally know of was built by Mark Bills in Willow AK. He now is the powdercoater in our nieghborhood. It was right at 1000lbs depending on if he ran the wood prop or the 180 club prop. Just under 1K with wood and a bit over 1K with the club. AC was just about as you describe with a few differences. As I recall it had hd gear, air streaks, 180 hp, single controls, cessna 206 front seat, squared tail, and a way to manually droop ailerons. It is all green and experimental but was mostly just a stock light cub. Can't remember what mtr mnt he had. It is a hell of a performer. Some might remember it from gulkana. There are others that post here that know it well and might be able to fill in the blanks.
 
Piper sales brochure that I have from 1979 list the empty weight of a PA-18-150 as 950lbs, believe it or not, remember this was a "sales" brochure.
 
91.215 could be interpreted a few different ways, I don't think they had a PA18 in mind when that was written. The "Any aircraft which was not originally certificated with a engine-driven electrical system" would include the PA18-150, because electrics where optional. It goes on to say, "or which has subsequently been certified with such a system installed". Well, it was certified with such a system installed, but it was not required. So is a PA18 legal under this provision? Because the system was not required, I would say yes. However, I do think if you flew this plane into a highly congested area under class B, got in everyones way and made a real nuisance of yourself, others may interprete it the other way, and nail you to the wall. I think safe operation of the aircraft in the environment it is to be flown in should be a bigger concern than what the rules say. Does anyone else have a interpretation of this, or ever run into it? This it the way my plane is set up, but I'm not around any big airspace.

You can easily loose 100+ lbs without electrics over stock. Non elecric 150 with the basic HD/extended goodies and big tires will be about 1000 lbs. Non electric, stock 150, and stripped with little tires could get down around 900 lbs.
 
That's right, I forgot. You also need to drill some lightening holes in your axe.

One more observation on non-electrics and airspace. Some airports in these areas seem very friendly to non-electic activity, and others, usually the bigger ones with commuter/corporate activity, are not so happy to see little puddle jumpers for obvious reasons. Check with the locals at any airport in these areas to find out what goes on, and what areas, and procedures the other non-electric types use.
 
light cub

Zooey, just finished my cub from scratch! Weighed it on certified digital scales n have an empty weight of 996lbs. I have Sky-tech lightweight starter, B n C lightweight alternater, dry cell under seat battery, basic panel, 8.50 x 6 tires with Cleveland wheels n brakes, no nav lights or landing light, basic aluminum interior n headliner, heavy duty extended gear, 150hp with 8241 Borer prop, Stits fabric with 2 color coats of Poly-tone. My original cub had an empty weihgt of 1060lbs. It had standard equipment (stater, alt., batt. ETC.) n 135hp with 8241 Borer prop. Cover was dope, not sure how many coats. If you ever intend to it on floats(tons of fun) electric start is nice!
 
Thanks for all the good info! Regarding the FAR's, I read that to
mean "this particular aircraft" that wasn't originally or subsequently
certificated with engine-driven electrics. Not whether any one of
the aircraft of that TC have been. So, it seems you have to find
a cub that originally didn't have electrics, and that doesn't have
any mention of them in the logbooks. I think.

As far as "causing trouble" under class B, when I'm at work in that
tall skinny building with all the windows around the top, I just say
"not receiving your transponder" and when I hear "this is a 1946
XYZ and we don't have any electrics" that's the end of it. Actually,
I don't really care if the plane ought to have a transponder or not,
I'm not the transponder police, it's just that most of the time the
reason it's not working is the oh-en-oh-eff-eff switch somehow
didn't get turned to alt. "Uh...we'll recycle that." I just want the
guy to be aware he's not going to show up on TCAS for all the
rich guys in a big hurry going 200 knots VFR down low. Now
there are some of my co-workers who get all worked up over
a malfunctioning transponder, but "we're non-electric and exempt"
shuts them up every time. So, that's what I want to be able to
say! And have it legit in case anyone ever looks into it.

So basically, does anyone know if you can fly legit no-electric within
the 30nm B veil in a new built-from-parts cub, or do you have to find
an old one originally built that way? I know I have access to people
with the answers through work, but the thing about those people is,
don't ask and they won't tell you what you don't want to hear.

--Zooey
 
Interesting.........I would interpret 91.215(b) to mean that if you had an electrical system installed in an aircraft "not orignally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system" you would still not be required to have a TXP. Any comments.......or is that one of those "gotcha" regs?
 
The catch, I think, is right after the part about "not originally certificated" comes the bit about "or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed" which, to me, seems to include any mention of an electrical system in the logbooks. Maybe a cub was built with no electrics, but somebody installed it 10 years later, then somebody else took it back out 10 years after that...seems like that's a plane that legally can't fly under class B. Or am I wrong?

Does anybody make a "handheld" transponder? There's an idea for an invention! Then you could putt around the city and show up on TCAS and not cause a lot of traffic calls to 747's a mile overhead (controller can't tell you're not a conflict, so calls traffic on you anyway "altitude unknown") and then when you head out into the bush just leave the transponder behind. There's no question it's safer in a busy area to have a transponder, but why is it necessary to lug all that other heavy crap around to provide a few lousy volts to power the thing? Surely with the advances in technology somebody could make one that would run for a reasonable amount of time on a battery pack.

As an aside, not having a transponder can protect you if you ever stray near one of those "temporary" flight restrictions. First, they can't prove you were at an altitude to bust the TFR. Second, when they tag you up with a little flag that follows you around so they can call the airport where you eventually land and find out your N number, the little flag won't stick on a primary radar reflection only. It keeps falling off, and you have to pay attention and keep sticking it back on. You have to coordinate with the next controller to keep track of that target when it leaves your piece of sky. Usually, this is too much trouble to bother. But, with a transponder, the computer can track a target easily all day long. As long as the target doesn't descend below terrain and then change direction before flying back out of the shadow. The tag goes into coast, and then drops off. When the target reappears, it's just another 1200 squawk--who's to say it's even the same plane? :wink:

--Zooey
 
Interesting questions.

If the "single airplane" specific definition is used, here is a example. How about a J3 or PA11. Most would believe that these planes left the factory without electrics, although their TC's do not read much different from a PA18 in the certification department concerning electrics. If a J3/PA11 has ever had a engine driven electrical system installed, but than removed, by this definition, it could never be concidered a non-electric aircraft ever again. I don't think this is the correct interpretation.

I really don't worry about the friendly folks up in those glass topped silos to much, (they will usually even let you land in the grass alongside the paved runways, if you ask real nice). I'm more worried about the well healed doush bag in his $ go fast machine that is used to making a 150 knot straight in approach to a 10000 ft runway getting his panties in a wad because of some slow Cub on final in front of him that is making him late for his tee time, and making a Federal case out of it.

If it is a big concern, just paint the non-electric PA18 yellow. With this camo installed, most of the city slickers won't know the difference between it and a J3 anyway...

If they would make a hand held transponder, I would buy one right away. But I think the certification on something like that would be a nightmare, and the market to small for the avionics manufacturers to bother with it.

Also, if it is "any mention in the log books", regarding a electrical system, and it was ever questioned, my original log and equipement list would become tragically lost.
 
Try Talking to a good avionics guru...

I do not remember any specific details but I was talking to one last fall and he said that it would be easy to put in a small Transponder (low current) and a handheld radio that could run off a small rechargable battery which would run them both for several hours if I remember correctly, Then all you have to do is take the battery home with you and keep it charged. It would be a very light weight addition to the plane.

Sorry I cannot be more specific.

David.
P.S. I think that the regs on this one are ¨GOTCH REGS
 
Microair makes a very light transponder. I have installed several of their radios and they preform very well and are light.
 
Becker makes a neat little 2 1/4" round hole radio and a matching transponder. I have the radio and it is first class quality. Crash
 
Crash,
Do you have the #4201? Are you using the intercom capabilities of the unit? If so, How do you like it?
 
Crash,

You must have got a good one, Jim had a Becker in his last Husky and it was nothing but trouble. Constantly cutting out and the local avionics shop couldn't get any support on it from Germany. Finally chucked it and put in an Apollo.

Brad
 
Hmmm....a small "light" panel mounted transponder? And a Garmin GNC-250 GPS/Comm and then just the littlest battery and alternator to power those two and nothing else. No starter or lights or strobes. Hmm. Has anybody got a plane with minimal electrics and no starter? The starter is what needs the big heavy battery.

--Zooey
 
I maintain a Husky with the Becker. 5 years and 600+ hours with no problems. I often wondered about their product support in the US.
 
Becker makes the annuciator system for the Boeing 767. I think their support would be OK, but I have not needed it yet. Crash
 
My cub has "no electric"
As far as the "no Transponder" is concerned.
I live under the mode B airspace of Minneapolis International.
Each year I call the airport traffic control tower talk to the air traffic manager
and request an annual waiver.No problem,they issue a flight corridor in and
out of the TCA.
(alot less expensive)
Scott
 
Yes, if you have no electrics its definitely no problem to fly within the 30nm class b txpndr veil. Pretty much the only way anyone would even look into whether or not you're "legit" no-electric per the FAR (plane was built that way) is if you're involved in an "incident".

And, yes, a cub definitely performs more like a cub when it's not hauling around electrics. I'm just wondering about the lightweight options to actually have a transponder (whether legally or practically required or not) simply because it makes me feel less vulnerable to that ultimate flying nightmare: getting mowed down from my six o'clock by some fool going 200 knots fooling with his "head down" multifunction display, and counting on his TCAD that there's nothing to run into ahead. If you don't have a transponder, you're invisible to these idiots. So there is an advantage to sticking high-intensity strobes all over your plane and blasting a transponder signal.

But, is there a middle ground between full-electrics and just counting on your cub yellow paint and keeping your head on full-paranoia swivel? You can only remove "most" of the factor of chance even with a full-paranoia head swivel. At least around here. Let me tell you how many times I've nearly been run over by RV's and Lancairs and Glasairs going balls-to-the-wall through congested airspace while the driver fiddles with all the cool knobs and switches and blinking lights on his panel.

I wonder if it's possible to "roll yer own" handheld transponder? Get an old second-hand cheap handheld comm and take it apart and solder in some radio-shack chip to make it respond to interrogation signals with a chirp of the proper frequency.

--Zooey
 
Zooey...........instead of a TXP I just fly at 200 feet. Never have to worry about anyone running up my tail then. That has been one of my concerns also and I even fly traffic patterns on the low side when NORDO.
 
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