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Ethanol use in aircraft engines

cubdrvr

cubdrvr

SPONSOR
YKN(mother city of the dakotas)
I just found out the SD legislature is studying a bill that would require the state to add 10% ethanol to all gasoline......INCLUDING aviation fuel. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience in running this combination in an aircraft engine? Do other states require this? Is it corrosive to seals, aluminum, etc.? I have always heard not to run it in airplanes, but have no idea why.
Any help apprciated and I will pass the word on to the governor.
 
I did some research, try a google search using the term aviation ethanol. A couple of the links were http://www.ethanol.org/in_the_news/sky-high.html and http://www.eere.energy.gov/power/tech_access/docs/51_ethanol_as_aviation_fuel.cfm

As near as I could ascertain ethanol based fuel is not approved for certified aircraft and that it's use would require engine and fuel system modifications. Spend a dollar to save a nickel. Unfortunately there are more farmers than pilots in SD. Also, if it were not for the subsidies and the fact that ethanol is not taxed like auto or av gas, it would not be competative. This is just another subsidy disguised as a worthwhile program. The fuel used to produce the corn (ethanol) is probably more than general aviation would use of ethanol.
 
I think one problem with etanol is it increases the cance of vapor lock. More volatile.

Glen S
 
It's hard to believe the EAA and AOPA haven't stepped in to save the aviation world from such legislation.
SB
 
stewartb said:
It's hard to believe the EAA and AOPA haven't stepped in to save the aviation world from such legislation.
SB
Click to expand...

Seems like the EAA was flight testing a 150 on ethanol awhile back... Or, maybe it was methanol from political BS...
 
I remember a buch of articles about ethanol, and for some reason, Texas Skyways (the 180/182 mod shop) comes to mind. It seems the fuel worked, but no surprise, seals, hoses, and gaskets didn't like it, and had to be changed. It would be interesting to see how a state government could legislate a fuel formula that is a clear violation of manufacturer and FAA policies. When the water precipitates out and causes a fatal crash, whose fault would it be?
SB
 
Just got this from Lycoming. Got about the same response from Continental.

Lycoming does not approve the use of ethanol fuel or blended fuels
in our engines. There are several reasons why ethanol causes concern:
1. Since ethanol has a lower energy content, the aircraft will have
less range with an ethanol blended product. Also, unless the fuel system is
altered to increase the fuel flow, the engine will produce less horsepower.
2. Ethanol has an affinity for water. Draining your fuel tank sumps
will not be necessary since the water will be absorbed in the fuel.
Unfortunately operating on a fuel with absorbed water may caused engine
roughness, loss of power, or stoppage.
3. Ethanol is aggressive to many of the seal and gasket materials
common in older aircraft.
4. Operation of a Lycoming engine on an ethanol blended fuel will
void the warranty for any fuel effected issue.

I also got word that the proposed blend of ethanol would have to meet the current Mil-Spec requirements and that is not probable.
 
There was an article or two on using ethanol in TBO magazine. The users of such were much in favor. A couple of drawbacks as I recall, fewer miles per gallon and non starts in cold weather. They used a small tank of gasoline to start the engine and then ran ok on the ethanol. Used it in a Cessna 180 and a Pitts I believe. I still have the article but I do not have the ability to scan it for use on the site. Probably a copyright issue there also. Jim
 
A follow up.TBO article appeared in Jan 1998. Basically a report on a the 2'nd alternative fuels conference at Baylor University in Waco, Texas. A group from South Dakota flies IO-320's in RV-3's in aerobatic demonstrations on pure Ethanol, has to Alodine the fuel tanks and change the aluminum fuel lines to Teflon but has no problems except for the cold weather starts. Try this site www.ethanol.org and click on aviation. This info is 5 years old, it may be unavailible. Yes I know I should have thrown the magazine out but TBO was a good read. Jim
 
Don't throw those TBO Advisers out. Kas Thomas did a great job on that mag. I still have all my copies and go back to them from time to time.
 
Ethanol.....

This thing with Ethyl alcohol (ethanol) is total bull$_ _t. The production of ethanol requires a distillation. Now get this: more BTU's are consumed in the production of ethanol than it will produce as a fuel. Can you guess what fuel is used to power the distillation process? Yep, petroleum. Really makes sense, doesn't it?
Ethanol is somwhat corrosive to light metals. Methanol, on the other hand, is severly corrosive to light metals, and I mean SEVERLY.
Why our government subsidizes the production of ethanol is purely political, and no other reason because it doesn't make any sense.

Mike
 
I second what CptKelly said. If there are to many mechanics at my local airport you can bet the government isn't going to subsidize us. According to the Wallstreet Journal the farmers are loosing their political clout due to less foreign countries being dependent on out agricultural imports. It's about time. I pay personal property tax on everything I use to make my living. I would be exempt if I was a farmer or rancher. Explain that. Feel free to move this to Rants and Raves.
 
You guys that say it takes more energy to produce ethanol than you get back must be listening to David Pimental at Cornell Univ. He is using 1980's farming technology and figures every acre of corn in the US is irrigated. At this point in time for every 100,000 BTU's used to produce the corn and alcohol you get back 167,000 BTU's of ethanol and you change 8% protein corn into 28% dried distillers grain(way cheaper than soybean meal and the cows, chickens,and hogs really like it too) . Some of the new plants that are being built are going to use coal instead of natural gas. At the oil refinery for every 100,000 btu used you get 85,000 btu,s of gasoline. What about the oil depletion allowance and tax credits the oil companies get?
 
So, get past the politics of it (for once if possible) and just consider the other factors. Are there problems with this kind of fuel in airplanes?

If, as 180Marty says, you can make a practical exchange of energy with a positive gain, what is the big deal? We do it all over. It is called a hybrid car, or a locomotive, etc, etc, etc.

Gracious knows we are subsidizing oil in a big way right now, we are just calling it a "war", I don't see the problem of buying a little corn.

I don't know much about ethanol, I did have trouble with fuel injection on my 280Z back in the 80's when I used it.

sj
 
Alcohol has always been bad in A/C fuel systems as far as I know. The auto fuel STC's both forbid it. If it was a viable alternative then produce it and sell it. I would guess it will cost more than petroleum based fuel or it would be used more than it is.
 
Thank's SJ, I wanted to add that "small" point about Iraq but didn't know if I dare. The Van Guard flying team from Tea, South Dakota has been running close to 100% ethanol for 10 to 15 years in there RV-3's . They did raise the compression ratio on there Lycomings to 10 or 12 to 1 to take advantage of the high octane and cool burning characteristics of the fuel.( gets them down the road further also) They also alodyned or anodized the fuel tanks. If it works in an RV I'd think it would work in a Cub.
 
So Marty, if there are no STC's for this fuel, or the existing STC's as Steve P. says don't allow it, how do the RV guys legally run it? Because they are experimental?

sj
 
180Marty said:
You guys that say it takes more energy to produce ethanol ........ At this point in time for every 100,000 BTU's used to produce the corn and alcohol you get back 167,000 BTU's of ethanol ....
Click to expand...

Well, then..... all ethanol producers should be *required* to use 100% ethanol in the production process! According to these figures, using gasoline or other fossil fuels to produce ethanol is wasteful in comparison! And all subsidies and tax breaks for ethanol over gasoline should be removed, there is no economic reason for them!

Christina
 
I think they can use ethanol legally since they are experimental. If there is enough interest, I'd think someone could get an STC for Supercubs to run the AGE-85 which is already a legal fuel. Texas Skyways used the 0-470UTS since it is the highest compression Continental at 8.6 to 1. AGE-85 is 88% ethanol, 11%pentane, and 1% biodiesel. The biodiesel is for top end lubrication and it coates the metal surfaces. Pentane is a component of gasoline and is used for better starting characteristics. Right now ethanol rack price is $1.75 to 1.85 with no subsidies . Until the last few months it was in the $1.20 to 1.30 range and has been as low as $.85. If you type in AGE-85 or ethanol on the Dogpile search you'll find info by South Dakota State and the U. of ND. Oh, ethanol can be made from biomass such as forest thinnings( Chester Ca.) rice straw(Gridley Ca) and sugar cane stalks(Jennings La) so it's not just corn and wheat.
 
Ethanol, good for man or motor. Even if it was STCd the problem still is availability on airports and personal transportation without contamination. I have tried many times to get a statement that the fuel being sold for autos complies with the specs for the auto gas STCs and never could get anyone to take the liability of certifing it.
 
Christina, I agree with you but we also need to cut off all gov. help to the oil companies. Gasoline would only be $3to 4 a gallon. I like to have unlimited visibility when I fly also. Last summer when I came home from K.C., Mo you could the brown gunk in the air restricting how far I could see- kinda like you have it all the time in NJ.
 
Now watch it Marty, if we got rid of the brown gunk here in KC, it would mess up our IFR training racket... :eek:

I thought that was from cows here anyway...

sj
 
Another thing......

There is another problem with almost all alcohols. During the distillation process, water is present, and is dissolved in the alcohol. Even with a very tall enriched distillation column that has lots of surface area, alcohols aziotrop water in the distillate. The fact that some water distills off along with the alcohol cannot be cheaply removed. Ethanol, at best, will contain approximately 14% water. To remove this water, it really costs lots of money. Laboratory grade reagent ethanol, which essentially is water free, is really expensive. The question is, will your engine run with a substantial amount of water in its fuel without damage? By the way, its the water contained in the alcohol that makes it corrosive. The heat energy needed to distill alcohol substantially exceeds the energy of the fuel. A vacuum distillation will reduce the heat requirements somewhat, but that old bugaboo of water pulled over in the distillation will increase.

Mike
 
I'd have to see some long term engine and airframe data to convince me and the savings would have to be considerable. To many Mobile One and the likes.
 
180Marty said:
Christina, I agree with you but we also need to cut off all gov. help to the oil companies. Gasoline would only be $3to 4 a gallon. I like to have unlimited visibility when I fly also. Last summer when I came home from K.C., Mo you could the brown gunk in the air restricting how far I could see- kinda like you have it all the time in NJ.
Click to expand...

Completely incorrect at this point in time. From the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis (http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/pubs/fedgaz/01-01/ethanol.cfm):

===================

Ethanol proponents point out that oil has received subsidies that dwarf ethanol by comparison. A recent report by the General Accounting Office (GAO) calculated subsidies of $120 billion to $150 billion (in inflation adjusted dollars) to the oil industry since the late 1960s, mostly in the form of tax credits or deductions for asset depletion, exploration and development. Ethanol subsidies over this time were significantly less at about $8 billion to $10 billion.

The GAO noted, however, that oil incentives "have generally been scaled back" and are roughly 80 percent lower today than in 1968 (inflation-adjusted), while ethanol subsidies were on the increase. GAO figures indicate that, on a per-gallon basis, the ethanol industry currently receives proportionately more in federal subsidies than the oil industry.

===================

I agree however, let's do away with all subsidies completely, and have a subsidy-neutral fuel policy. Then let's see if ethanol can stand on it's own legs. It can't, simply because there is much less energy in a gallon of ethanol than in a gallon of gas. That's why they don't use ethanol in the ethanol production process. They use gasoline, diesel, and other fossil fuels instead. This is a superb example of hypocrisy

Christina

P.S. There is no "brown gunk" where I live, at least not in the NW part of NJ. Maybe over Manhattan there is sometimes.
 
Interesting, while I was doing some Google research on Ethanol, I came upon this website on stills and distilling.

Cool looking gear, hokey webpage music.

http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/

Christina, I agree with the no subisdy approach, however, I would include all the money we spend fighting for oil rights in our country and overseas - include that and gas would probably be $25 per gallon. I suppose then we would be fighting over corn rights...

sj
 
steve said:
...I would include all the money we spend fighting for oil rights in our country and overseas - include that and gas would probably be $25 per gallon. ...
sj
Click to expand...

Any fighting over oil rights is completely misguided. Oil is a fungible commodity. If the Arabs didn't sell it to us (and why would they decide not to), then they would sell it to the Europeans, who would sell it to us. Or the Europeans would buy more Arab oil and less North Sea oil, and we would buy more North Sea oil. See what I mean? There is more than enough to go around, for a very, very long time. It's the onerous government restrictions and Fed policy (oil is one of the first commodities to be hit by inflation) that are causing the current crunch. There have been no new refineries built in 25 years due to EPA regulations, and the enviro extremists have essentially shut down any near-term possibilities of drilling in a piece of ANWR smaller than the size of Newark Airport.

Cheers, Christina
 
Christina, you are using pretty big words there for us cub pilots...

For those dumber folks like me who though fungible was something that grew on the top of blueberry yogurt:

fun·gi·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnj-bl)

adj. Law. Returnable or negotiable in kind or by substitution, as a quantity of grain for an equal amount of the same kind of grain.
Interchangeable.

n. Something that is exchangeable or substitutable. Often used in the plural.

Great to have folks like you around here.

sj
 
This website is addictive-way more fun than talking about the weather with the locals. To CaptKelly on the water- sounds like you know some chemistry. At our alcohol plant , which is getting obsolete after 15 mos. in operation, there are 3 vessels about the size of 1000 gallon propane tanks that are filled with synthetic zeolite that grab the water out of the 190 proof coming out of the distillation tower. Each one has 190 flowing through on a 6 minute cycle. When saturated a big vacuum is put on the vessel and water is boiled off. If I remember zeolite has pores that are 3 angstroms in size ,water 2.5, and ethanol 4 thus the water fits and the ethanol doesn't. Right now corn is $2.50 to $3 a bushel( no gov. compensation on those bushels) natural gas is $6 a million BTU's and ethanol is leaving the plant at $1.50 or so. This is profitable so I bought some 29 inch Alaska Bushwheels. I'm also going to Churchill with Brian Schanche( Adventure seaplanes) Later I hope to get checked out in his PA-12 on floats. Someday I hope to build an experimental PA-12 and fuel it on a high % of ethanol. Oh, The ethanol is considered 200 proof since anything less doesn't mix well with gasoline.
 
STEVE'S COMMENTS

STEVE ARE YOU SO UNINFORMED AS TO THINK WE ARE AT WAR FOR OIL? I CAN TELL YOU THINK YOUR FREEDOM IN THIS COUNTRY IS FREE. I CAN'T BELIEVE OTHERS HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO THIS OUTRAGEOUS COMMENT! :bad-words:
 
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