Annual Costs

I would guess there are a number of people populating this website who would like to have some idea what an annual should cost.

For purposes of this discussion lets use the inspection report and lubrication chart posted in the Woe and Intrigue Secton as the standard for an annual inspection and assume that nothing is broken, bent or mutilated (that you are aware of) and needs to be fixed.

Any repairs and replacement of parts would be in addition to the inspection and done at the shop's hourly rate and retail cost of the parts. It would be useful for anyone replying to advise their hourly rate and if the owner can assist in the annual.

There are a number of contributors who make their living working on airplanes and could, if they wanted, provide some guidance. It might also generate some business.

I can annual a Super Cub in about 10 hrs. My shop rate is $45 an hr. for maintenance and $35 for restorations. The first time I annual an A/C usually takes a little longer because I research the entire maintenance history and get pretty deep into it. This comes from years of finding poor repairs, undocumented repairs and generally not taking anything at face value anymore. I allow the owner to assist if he likes. My customers that know their A/C are better at helping me trouble shoot problems. I have many horror stories of chasing problems with poor descriptions of what happened. I do an inspection and let the owner know what the problems are up front, that way there are no suprises. Also, I have never done an annual where I did not find something that needed to be repaired. Even the A/C that fly a few hours a year.

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Ok, here's my .02 worth

I am not a "licensed AP or IA, I have studied passed the written exams (years ago) and then never took that practical exam due to the way the FAA went about their requirement for experience (back in the 70's)! Besides I had a job that paid!! (not kidding) most AP's make less then the Ford garage mechanic??) I have been working on, rebuilding and maintaining airplanes from J-3's, Beavers, I85's, 206's, Barons, C310's, to F4U corsairs and have owned (I think 10 or so). I have always been annal about saftey items, not overly concerned about asthetics (on work planes) and never one to half ass anything (sorry the brash language).

I have always grown up around airplane mechanics that knew the quality of my work and were willing to work "with me" in performing required inspections.

As a business owner I respect a shop "making a profit". My only gripe is when they (usually the big ones---repair stations) hire non licensed aprentices to work on the little guys plane??? and then a lead or "foreman" signes off his work after (inspecting his work). (Flightcraft in Portland screwed up my Baron this way!! (Don't confuse this with a good AI mentoring a student that wants to be a top drawer mechanic) the only few times I let some shop do work on my plane (without my supervision) did I have a ##$#%^mess when I got the plane home!!

It is becoming harder and harder all the time to find mechanic/shops that actually have Rag and tube experience! If you find one (treat them with respect, (don't expect the 'cheap' rate) just cause you have a little plane!
Listen-Learn-and then do more on your own to prevent small things from becoming big items needing repair.

$40-$60 an Hour for the actual hours worked on your cub sound pretty fair. When I first moved here to WA state and no one new my experience I had an IA inspect my plane and go through the paperwork- I paid him $400 for his effort. (we are still friends and any work he does now for me he charges by the hour ($35 an hour) "he did find things that I missed and he did a great job of researching the records!

I have another IA that I work with that like (Steve Pierce) stated believes the pilot/ owner knows his airplane the best and is willing to work with anyone that has the "mechanical aptitude" to work on there own equipment.

As both of the previous AP's have stated I have never seen an aircraft that is regularily flown that doesn't need a repair/ or adjustment made at annual.

I can tell you that most cub owners that I know that actually use there planes are "always fixing stuff" when it breaks, and are not foolish enough to expect them to just hold together till 100hr or annual is due (give me a break) I call that progressive maintenance---that is what the big guys do isn't???

Tim

Good post Tim, I like customers like you. What Corsair have you been involved with. I have a lot of Curse Air experience. One over built airplane but still one of my favorites next to the Bearcat. Spent 5 yrs. working for Nelson Ezell in Breckenridge, TX maintaining and rebuilding the Big Iron. Learned a lot and enjoyed it but had to get into something I could somewhat afford. Have you flown it. I saw in another post you mentioned taxiing the long nose bird. Can't see didly from the cockpit, huh.

Hi. Here's my 2 cents:

go back to the top and read Steve P.'s post. I'm aligned nearly exactly with him, except that I take 16 hours if I don't have an owner helping open panels, cleaning, and servicing. If you think that's too long, go to the Piper 100hour/Annual checklist and read down the list of items. There's alot to do on that list....And it's all important.

Also, FAR 43 Appendix D requires me to inspect for improper installation of components along with all the other obvious problems that it lists. If you own an a/c and haven't looked at this document, you should.

The issue of inspecting for improper installation keeps the owner-installed kitchen sinks from falling through the belly fabric, etc., etc.

The Annual inspection isn't about owner versus mechanic. If you're an owner that feels this way, what's your problem? If you're a mechanic that feels this way, fire the owner from being your customer!!

As TJ said, a list of discrepancies before anything gets fixed is important...owner and mechanic are on the same sheet of music. And if you don't like the tune, take your junk somewhere else where they don't mind killing you by not fixing it.

As PA-12 Driver Tim said, A&P's get paid less than Ford mechanics, but are capable of welding, sewing, woodworking, hydraulic work, engine work, chassis work, test-piloting, lawyering (knowledge of FAR's), and PR work (public relations with the irate customer who thought his a/c had absolutely nothing wrong with it).

Dave Calkins.

PS A photo of 12 Driver's Corsair

dlete

First a clarification: The Corsair belonged to Bruce Lockwood (of Reno fame) he won three years in a row with Dago Red. Bruce and I grew up together in Juneau, and I happened to get to play with this fine piece of machinery At Birchwood in AK, a trill and memory (and expense) of a lifetime!

To Diggler--- I have never seen an airplane that by the time annual came around, didn't have a discrepency list with a few items needing attention? have you??

Their are many a/c owners that are not "mechanically inclined". They would not be of much help to the AP/IA. I have seen this slow down and impede the process. (running any kind of shop profitably is a matter of return on time invested)right wives??

There is with a little effort spent many great AP/IA's that welcome owner participation. some will offer to "inspect" the plane once opened up. go over the logs (at their time/place/computer what ever. point out things that need attention (now)--saftey related--! and then to also point out things that are going to need to be repair in a (determined time frame) and or asthetic things that the owner can make the call. Many of these guys are working on the side of their regular imployment or just don't any longer want to work for "some one else".

As David pointed out much has to do with the relationship that is developed between the owner and the mechanic, and also the Upfront declaration of costs, realistic projection of time to make the repairs and percentage of what part the owner is qualified to do himself?

Another determining factor is Timing!!! many (me included at times) have waited till their plane was 2 days from being out of license and then want the mechanic to inspect it NOW! sure??? some will for a price??

Everyone wants there cub flying when the weather is good. So try to time your annuals to the seasonably lousyiest weather. Give your mechanic the time necessary to do you a good turn and you will likely be happy and so will he.

Last if you want to do your own, study, take the test an get your AP/ IA license??? might make the annuals more realistic when you see what the poor guy has to go through to get the certificate and to "keep it up" and to assume the liability?? ouch!

Tim

I'm supposed to have a working wet compass. Fortunately, mine works just fine. Unfortunately, it doesn't work in the plane. How do you A&Ps fix that?? Yeah, I know we addressed this on another thread, but I'm dreading my first annual/condition inspection because, if legally my mechanic can't sign off if the compass isn't working, what do I do? Am I grounded forever??

Anne.

Anne, In 25+ years of flying I have never seen an AP swing a compass "just to check it". They usually (especially this time of year) are working inside? If your compass "looks to be in working order and has a compensation card) and the fluid level is satisfactory? then it "works". is it accurate? show me one that is or can be made to be in a cub and I will show you a new? un-modified cub? seen one of those lately?

The rest has been covered by other posts. If you have a problem with this might want to look for a new mechanic, cause he doesn't understand the problem (we all have) That is what made "remote compasses" popular! Now the GPS position relative to MN is the orientation of "choice".

Hope this helps and doesn't buck to many off?

Tim

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annestoy said:

I'm supposed to have a working wet compass. Fortunately, mine works just fine. Unfortunately, it doesn't work in the plane. How do you A&Ps fix that?? Yeah, I know we addressed this on another thread, but I'm dreading my first annual/condition inspection because, if legally my mechanic can't sign off if the compass isn't working, what do I do? Am I grounded forever??

Anne.

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Anne..

You don't need a compass... The compass requirement in Part 91 only applies to certificated airplanes, not experimentals... In fact, there is no requirement to have an altimeter, airspeed, compass, tach., oil pressure, oil temp., etc. in my Cuby... I took the inaccurate compass out just after I bought it...

Sounds about right to me? I know if I set up to paint struts it is a pain and it take more time to get the shop ready to do a good job then the whole process takes. Last set I put on, didn't rig exactly the same either, so it took some extra time to check everything and make sure the end result was right? Also wasn't too long ago I helped a guy change out the struts on his cub and "he told me it was rigged right" and to just put it back like it was? I didn't like the number of threads showing on the forks so I checked the rig and their was like no wash out!! Now I am not an "licensed AP/IA" but I told him that it wadn't right. I would assume a good IA would not sign that off so I told him that I wouldn't expect my IA to do so and I would put them where the specs called for and then if he wanted to change it after it was inspected have at it! Diggler, TJ, David, SP, does this sound familiar. Heck I was doing all this, including the arguing for "nothing", so the guy could save a buck on his Annual???

If a lesson is to be learned here, friends, DO IT RIGHT and you will have a good reputation with the mechanics and inspectors in your area! They will trust you and you can trust them--and Cavy will be able to keep his puppies! By the way I am really starting to fall in love with the last two that he sent! bow wow!

Tim

Another good reason to go Experimental! I seem to always have instruments that quite faster then I can replace them, (might be the small rocks, logs, and ditches we land over??

Thanks Cuby, you are a hero! Anne you should get a free shirt for Cuby!!

Tim

PA12driver said:

Another good reason to go Experimental!Tim

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This is my 30th or 31st airplane/helicopter and the first experimental... Now that I have it, I can't imagine a good reason, except to fly for hire, to ever buy a "store bought"... It's not to save money on maintenance, I'm an A&P/IA, it just makes being an aircraft owner more fun...

Diggler, Main stuff I find is from wear, aileron/flap bearing blocks, rudder and elevator hinge bushings, cracked baffles/cowling and primer lines, and torn fabric or raw fabric, worn out tailwheel assembly. Those are somewhat less time consuming a costly for parts. Then there is the bad cylinder, cracked exhaust, blown out muffler, rusted tubing, cracked engine mount. I agree with you on the cost of an annual. I don't have a set rate. I tell the owner that a normal annual costs $xx. I charge by the hour and the logbooks and the bill will have a complete list of everything I did. Your charge for doing the struts is in line. I always get a run or some other paint flaw and end up eating that time. I hate to paint.

Tim, For some reason the guy that says his airplane is in excellent shape with no problems is usually the one with the most problems. The shortage of mechanics who work on rag and tube has helped me weed out the bad eggs. I am very busy and don't usually take on new customers. I can honestly say that my customers are my friends. We fly together, hang out and tell lies whatever. It hasn't always been that way, I try to get along with everyone but some people take advantage of that and we have had to have a parting of the ways. I usually got the short end of the stick but in all cases so far what comes around goes around, it just takes a little time. As far as doing it right, that is the only way. Do you think that if you let something slide for someone and it cause something to happen they aren't going to put it on you. I earned my best customers by doing it right. They know there are guys that will do it cheaper but they respect my work and I respect them for that. All I want to do is make an honest living doing what I love to do and when I go to bed at night I don't want to worry about the things I have done coming back to haunt me. I feel like my A&P/IA tickets give me an awful lot of responsibility and I use them as such.

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Cuby, thanks for the info! I didn't know that experimentals didn't have to have a compass, or much of anything else. Another advantage I didn't expect...

Anne.

annestoy said:

Cuby, thanks for the info! I didn't know that experimentals didn't have to have a compass, or much of anything else. Another advantage I didn't expect...

Anne.

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No problem Anne...

I think we have the best of two worlds with experimentals... As I've mentioned before, the downside is they can't be used commercialy and we don't have Mr. Piper, Beech, Cessna, et al, standing behind us ,so every time we fly, it's an experiment...

OOHHHHHHH...Think of all the weight you can save with those experimentals.

Dave Calkins.

Good discussion on annuals. I own a plane with 3 other guys. I'm the "anal" one. If it's broke, fix it. If it's gonna break, fix it. If it's not shiny anymore, replace it. We agreed to this before "partnering" on this particular airplane. Everyone signed on the dotted line. Has sure saved a lot of time arguing. Our AP/IA calls ME about what's found on inspections. He always allows me to "help" with annuals. We can discuss sqawks as they're found. Works great. I learn more and more about the plane. Everything gets fixed. We get annualed a little cheaper. No arguments. Note to "Cuby": You stated ,above, that the only "drawback" to going experimental was that every flight is experimental. All MY flights are experimental, even in a certificated airplane!

Compass

Since this thread talked about compasses I though I would spark it up again for a quick question. In my cub, (not experimental), does a remote compass suffice for VFR flight or do I need a liquid compass to comply with the FARs? My remote compass works great, but the liquid one works like most cubs (about 180 degrees off - all the time!) - so can i just get rid of the liquid compass, or do I need to keep it in the panel to comply with the FARs even though I'll never use it?

Shane

Re: Compass

aktailwheel said:

Since this thread talked about compasses I though I would spark it up again for a quick question. In my cub, (not experimental), does a remote compass suffice for VFR flight or do I need a liquid compass to comply with the FARs? My remote compass works great, but the liquid one works like most cubs (about 180 degrees off - all the time!) - so can i just get rid of the liquid compass, or do I need to keep it in the panel to comply with the FARs even though I'll never use it?

Shane

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Shane...

FAR 91.205(b)(3) just says "Magnetic direction indicator", but when your question comes up (and it does often), the Administrator defines that the indicator must be "direct reading", i.e. your liquid compass...

Hi Cuby

I have been told otherwise up here in Alaska. Must be a location difference. I was ramped in King Salmon and had my GPS covering my whiskey compass. They quizzed me on whether I thought it was legal just having a remote. I didn't know the answer for sure and told them that. They told me that it was legal with just the remote. I have talked to several pilots since with the same story. Might have changed again since that has been about three or four years ago. You have a PM

Mark

AkPA/18 said:

Hi Cuby

I have been told otherwise up here in Alaska. Must be a location difference. I was ramped in King Salmon and had my GPS covering my whiskey compass. They quizzed me on whether I thought it was legal just having a remote. I didn't know the answer for sure and told them that. They told me that it was legal with just the remote. I have talked to several pilots since with the same story. Might have changed again since that has been about three or four years ago. You have a PM

Mark

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Well Mark, it's well known fact that you guys in North Texas do things differently... Personally, I'd trust a remote a lot more than a whiskey compass and I trust my GPS a lot more than a remote... I'll call you after lunch...

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