New Piper data plate?

Where can I get a new blank data plate by Piper Aircraft Corp., Lockhaven, Pa?

murph

Have fun Murph........do you have the old one? If not, then you have to apply to Piper for a new one (to be "legal"). Look 'em up on the net and they will send you the application for a new one......they require that you furnish the serial number of the FUSELAGE. This, I am told, can be found in 3 different places depending on the aircraft and is a tab welded on the tubing. The A model was the cross tube under the panel. Mine was missing because they replaced the tubing.....so then I had to call Clyde Smith, Jr. (he can help). Then send money with the app.....seems like it was 150 bucks or so for that little plate.
Or........I think you can order one from Univair or Wag Aero and engrave it yourself.
Or.......you can forget about it.

The "...forget about it..." option means that technically your piece of equipment is no longer an aircraft. Period.

Even if it was an "experimental", it would still need a data tag.

For the $150, you can have a "Real" data tag. Piper will engrave it for you, and you'll be happy to know that it's legal, airworthy, and insurable(assuming you care to insure this investment).

"Forget about it" ???

That's like doing a bunch of unapproved mods, and then getting upset that no one wants to sign off your annual, so you end up with a very expensive airplane that's not legal.

Did something change, or is the law STILL the LAW?

Dave Calkins.

David,

I think the day will come when only outlaws will have data tags, or something like that....

When I bought my cub, the first A&P t inspect it moved the data tag from the body to the horizontal stabilizer holder-oner thingy majoby. He said that way it would survive the fire. What a confidence builder that was...

sj

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I bet there's a lot of Expensive Flower Pots flying around then. Must be something a guy can do if he has this problem.
Brian

PS. How are these guys doing it when they buy a new fuselage??

Steve:

Sorry to hear about your fire! I know it must have bruised your confidence. :roll:

T. J.:

Thanks for the info. A friend is exporting a Pawnee and has an issue with a data tag. I don't know the details, but he asked me to see what I can learn. BTW, I think I saw you fly over, or at least it looked alot like you, but at 35 grand, I couldn't tell for sure. You shoulda stopped in and stayed a while.

murph

If you can't find your fuselage number call Clyde Smith, Jr............he can help.

............and DC don't get your shorts in a bunch.......... FYI...........I was giving Murph his options not making recommendations. There are a lot of cubs flying here in the Midwest sans data plates and they fly just fine. Until I rebuilt mine it had been missing for about 18 years. Speeding is against the law also but I don't make it a habit to stop and chastise the offenders..........I leave that to the authorities.

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New Piper data plate

If the FAA wants to physically see the plate on the fuselage cant you just make one and weld it on? This is after you have confirmed your number with Clyde.(Im in no way suggesting a shady deal) The PA-18 wrecked fuselage that I have has a number, I was going to rebuild it but it was so badly damaged I started over with a new shipment of 4130, The wrecked fuse. comes in handy for all those tabs and brackets that are hard to visualize from the blueprint, helps me build "proper".

Steve, I think we should clarify that the data tag we're talking about is the one most Cubs have mounted on the floorboard below the front seat........NOT the "external" data tag that one often sees mounted aft of the cabin door or also near the stab LE on the fuselage side.

CBDRVR, My shorts have been in a bunch for years, which makes it real hard to get the sand out of them too. Thanks for the clarification of your "options" list.

A friend of mine hates working on Cubs because no two are alike and it's a "simple" a/c, so the owners bastardize them, and also think they can be maintained cheaply(read-"very little time or money spent in maintaining them").......This guy works on new Cessnas and Huskies, and runs an excellent repair station......AND happens to own a Starduster Too and a PA-12. He just hates that guys don't take the time to do things right the first time. I'm right there with him on that!

Dave Calkins.

I agree with you Dave. Pacers, Clippers and citabrias around here are like that. A guy here bought a Citabria, buys a transponder on ebay and installs it himself with poprivets and other assorted hardware store junk. Know he's mad cause he has to take it somewhere else to get the annual done. Oh well. The list goes on and on.

Steve

Steve P., Thanks for your agreement with my thought of always doing it right the FIRST time.

It seems that guys like you and Mark Drath always post with that "IDEAL" foremost in mind.

Some "weekend" rebuilders who don't understand what really matters are the guys I hope we can reach with this thought.

I'm really starting to believe that the guy who is honest has it "in him" to be honest, and the guy who wants a/c maintenance done right just has it "in him" to do it right. Hopefully some of the "HACKS" can be converted to being honest and doing it right. I'm not talking about everybody flying around in "museum-pieces" that are perfect....just doing the next scheduled maintenance or inspection the way you'd want it done if, say.... someone else was gonna pay for it, and then you were gonna buy the a/c from them for a previously negotiated price.

Sheesh, just do it right and don't try to cut corners.

Steve J., feel free to move this one to the Rant and Rave.

Dave Calkins.

Question: Is there a required location for the data plate? Does it have to be in the original location on the floorboard or can it be relocated to a holder oner thingy majoby?

That "law" to put an external horizontal stabilizer holder-oner thingy majoby REALLY pi$$%^me off when it was enacted (in the name of Law enforcement' as John S. would say "give me a break"!!

It would be well for all of us to fix what we see done improperly by the "former owners" of our planes and to do all future work "by the book" the challenge is reading (for some of us) and interpeting the book (by others)?? thus the FA process crap that is goin on as we speak!

A mechanic "mentor" of mine suggested "Do it Right the first time" if you don't have the time to do it over! Good rule to follow. Never takes longer done right then done over and over!

As for me I would rather fly then work on them (wife and kids need time too?)

Tim

I don't mean to throw sand in the Vaseline folks, but wasn't Murph's original question about where he could find a "Blank" data plate for Pipers from Lockhaven, PA? In looking through my Wag Aero catalog, I see an"exact duplicate of original" in stainless steel for $5.50 on page 114, along with replacement plates for Aeronca and Amateur built.

Now, how one chooses to use this data plate is another thing. Dave, I appreciate your attention to detail and desire to do it right the first time, and I agree with you.

This was discussed before somewhere? Oh well.

The external requirement is not to put the data plate on the outside of the plane, just to have the info on there. I wouldn't put that precious little piece of metal out there. I like it securely screwed to the floorboard under the torque tube.

All but I believe maybe the earliest PA18's had the etched Piper data plate. If you see a PA18 with a cheap stamped plate, be very suspitious...

As a note to those buying, or who do Cub prebuys professionally, always check the aircraft for a proper dataplate, and insure that the fuselage tag is still there. If you can't find either, this should be rectified before you buy.

As another note to those who already own. Find the fuselage tag, and write the number down somewhere. I like to write it on the inside of the airframe log book cover. Also write down all the info on the data plate. PC#, ect, or take paper and pencil and make a rubbing of it, and keep in in the records. You may save yourself, or someone else some headaches in the future.

Murph, I think all the PA25's would have the etched plate, a sharp inspector would catch a cheap copy.

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data plates

Advisory Circulars 43-17 and 45-2A provide guidance about the use and placement of data plates. Both also address the use of data plates from wrecks on "rebuilt" aircraft.

Thanks for the reply on my question T.J. I think the FAA can do just anything they want, we are their hostages.

Super Cub Guru?s and other concerned tweeker?s

Regarding Data plates?. a few funny thoughts:

1st we have to interpret (or agree) on the word ?Airworthy?

The term "airworthy" is not defined in Title 49 or the regulations; however, a clear understanding of its meaning is essential for use in the FAA?s Airworthiness Certification program for aircraft. Below is an analogy of the conditions necessary for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate by an approved Production Certificate Holder or a FAA Inspector.

A review of case law relating to airworthiness reveals two conditions that must be met for an aircraft to be considered "airworthy." Title 49 Section 44704(c) and 14 CFR part 21, Certification Procedures for Products and Parts (part 21), § 21.183(a), (b), and (c), all relate to the two conditions necessary for issuance of an airworthiness certificate. The statutory language establishes the two conditions as:

A. The aircraft must conform to its Type Certificate (TC). Conformity to type design is considered attained when the aircraft, or parts configuration along with components installed in, around or on an aircraft are consistent with the drawings, specifications, and other data that are part of the TC, and would include any STC and field approved alterations incorporated into the aircraft. Major Repairs and Alterations are, of course recorded on the famous FAA Form 337.

B. The aircraft must be in a condition for safe operation. This refers to the condition of the aircraft relative to wear and deterioration, e.g., skin corrosion, window delamination/crazing, fluid leaks, tire wear, etc. Including suspected unapproved parts and modifications which happens to be a BIG emphasis item within the FAA.

NOTE: If one or both of these conditions were not met, the aircraft would be considered unairworthy. Aircraft which have been issued a TC must meet the requirements of the paragraph above.

Now, in order not to re-define the process? of obtaining a PC, basically, a manufacturer (PCH) presents drawings, procedures and process?s in how they plan on building aircraft (Boring). Having said that, these specific drawings, with their associated Bills of Material (BOM?s, very boring) listing all the individual piece parts that are what the FAA approves and/or accepts to certificate an aircraft (Geeeez, all that). It?s an agreement on a standard with all the checks and balances afforded to other industries like meat processing, financial audits, medical certificates, lawyer stuff etc. etc. All include quality audits and revision control procedures to account for changes.

The data plates are a individual piece part that has its own drawing denoting its part number that include the information that you guys mentioned above. Its specification (i.e. size, material, stamping and inking) are listed specifically on the drawing. The next higher assemble drawing of the fuselage show, in detail, how to affix and exactly where to install it on a particular fuselage assuring conformity to the drawing and ultimately airworthy, hence the Airworthiness Certificate. If you knew your production run dates on the assembly line, you can determine which plate goes on what aircraft by requesting the drawings that were current at that time. (Yea right, like Piper would help doing that!!, good luck)

Now, is it safe to fly without a data plate? Is it safe to fly with it installed someplace else? Yes, it is however, guess what, its? not legal because it does not meet TYPE DESIGN. And BOOM, your busted by the Fed?s and your insurance company doesn?t pay out your claim cause YOU operated a illegal aircraft?.TAA DAAH. It sucks to be you, or your estate! Especially that eiddy bitty mod you thought nobody would care about. Insurance companies love that. One unapproved mod and WHACK!! nothing but dail tone!!!!

CFR 45 address? inappropriate data plates which include reproductions.

Another analogy is that, in a way, pilots are ?Certificated? because they go through an approved Practical Test Standard (PTS) to fly planes. And it does not make you any less safe if you fly without one (forgot your wallet, did ya,), It just doesn?t make it legal, kinda like driving a car without your license. The cops need it so they know who thier busting and tossing around. Damn common sense starts peaking!

Now, before you bash me in a reply, I just report the news, I don't make it up. Pretty cool disclaimed, huh?!! Be careful up yonder, later

VB

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OK VINNY:
Now lets take this a bit further. Is it a major or minor alteration to move the data plate to another location? Since we look thru the FAR's for major and minor alterations, it would seem to me that it is not covered in 43 as a major alteration. So could it be a minor alteration ,and as long as a certified mechanic moved it to another location and noted it in the logbook, would he not be legal?
I acquired a couple original blank piper data plates a few years ago from someone on Trade a Plane. After I recieved them, the gentleman called me up and told me I might get a visit from the FBI as they were just at his place questioning him about selling blank Data plates. He said he showed them that wag aero was doing the same in their catalog and they left. Never came to visit me but I don't think I will use the plates until I was dead sure they were legal.
Now since mine are original part number plates wouldn't they be legal to use as you state a reproduction wouldn't be?

data plates

Unless you believe in fairy tales there is no way to turn a pig's ear into a silk purse. You either have the data plate that came with the airplane or you get a new one from piper. Blank ones stamped with the desired data don't cut it nor does one from a wreck. From my experience Piper put the data plate on the floor board below the right rear of the front seat and that would be the best place to leave it. Do it right or suffer the consequences if you get caught. When you get caught you will have the opportunity to pay one of those attorneys some people piss and moan about. Maybe he/she will be able to find an exception to the rule after helping you spend your money.

FAR Sec. 45.11

General.

(a) Aircraft and aircraft engines. Aircraft covered under Sec. 21.182 of this chapter must be identified, and each person who manufactures an aircraft engine under a type or production certificate shall identify that engine, by means of a fireproof plate that has the information specified in Sec. 45.13 of this part marked on it by etching, stamping, engraving, or other approved method of fireproof marking. The identification plate for aircraft must be secured in such a manner that it will not likely be defaced or removed during normal service, or lost or destroyed in an accident. Except as provided in paragraphs (c) and (d) of this section, the aircraft identification plate must be secured to the aircraft fuselage exterior so that it is legible to a person on the ground, and must be either adjacent to and aft of the rear-most entrance door or on the fuselage surface near the tail surfaces. For aircraft engines, the identification plate must be affixed to the engine at an accessible location in such a manner that it will not likely be defaced or removed during normal service, or lost or destroyed in an accident.

(d) On aircraft manufactured before March 7, 1988, the identification plate required by paragraph (a) of this section may be secured at an accessible exterior or interior location near an entrance, if the model designation and builder's serial number are also displayed on the aircraft fuselage exterior. The model designation and builder's serial number must be legible to a person on the ground and must be located either adjacent to and aft of the rear-most entrance door or on the fuselage near the tail surfaces. The model designation and builder's serial number must be displayed in such a manner that they are not likely to be defaced or removed during normal service.

FAR Sec. 45.13

Identification data.

(a) The identification required by Sec. 45.11 (a) and (b) shall include the following information:
(1) Builder's name.
(2) Model designation.
(3) Builder's serial number.
(4) Type certificate number, if any.
(5) Production certificate number, if any.
(6) For aircraft engines, the established rating.
(7) On or after January 1, 1984, for aircraft engines specified in part 34 of this chapter, the date of manufacture as defined in Sec. 34.1 of that part, and a designation, approved by the Administrator of the FAA, that indicates compliance with the applicable exhaust emission provisions of part 34 and 40 CFR part 87. Approved designations include COMPLY, EXEMPT, and NON-US as appropriate.
(i) The designation COMPLY indicates that the engine is in compliance with all of the applicable exhaust emissions provisions of part 34. For any engine with a rated thrust in excess of 26.7 kilonewtons (6000 pounds) which is not used or intended for use in commercial operations and which is in compliance with the applicable provisions of part 34, but does not comply with the
hydrocarbon emissions standard of Sec. 34.21(d), the statement "May not be used as a commercial aircraft engine" must be noted in the permanent powerplant record that accompanies the engine at the time of manufacture of the engine.
(ii) The designation EXEMPT indicates that the engine has been granted an exemption pursuant to the applicable provision of Sec. 34.7 (a)(1), (a)(4), (b), (c), or (d), and an indication of the type of exemption and the reason for the grant must be noted in the permanent powerplant record that accompanies the engine from the time of manufacture of the engine.
(iii) The designation NON-US indicates that the engine has been granted an exemption pursuant to Sec. 34.7(a)(1), and the notation "This aircraft may not be operated within the United States", or an equivalent notation approved by the Administrator of the FAA, must be inserted in the aircraft logbook, or alternate equivalent document, at the time of installation of the engine.
(8) Any other information the Administrator finds appropriate.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d)(1) of this section, no person may remove, change, or place identification information required by paragraph (a) of this section, on any aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, propeller blade, or propeller hub, without the approval of the Administrator.
(c) Except as provided in paragraph (d)(2) of this section, no person may remove or install any identification plate required by Sec. 45.11 of this part, without the approval of the Administrator.
(d) Persons performing work under the provisions of Part 43 of this chapter may, in accordance with methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator--
(1) Remove, change, or place the identification information required by paragraph (a) of this section on any aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, propeller blade, or propeller hub; or
(2) Remove an identification plate required by Sec. 45.11 when necessary during maintenance operations.
(e) No person may install an identification plate removed in accordance with paragraph (d)(2) of this section on any aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, propeller blade, or propeller hub other than the one from which it was removed.

Subject: IDENTIFICATION AND REGISTRATION
MARKING
Date: 4/16/92
Initiated by: AIR-200
AC No: AC 45-2A
Change:
1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular (AC) updates the guidance and information concerning the
identification and marking requirements of Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) Part 45, and
describes an acceptable means, but not the sole means, of compliance with the regulations.
2. REFERENCES.
a. Federal Aviation Regulations Parts 21, 25, 45, and 47.
b. Advisory Circular 20-62, Eligibility, Quality, and Identification of Approved Aeronautical
Replacement Parts,
and AC 20-65, U.S. Airworthiness Certificates and Authorization for Operation of Domestic and
Foreign Aircraft.
3. CANCELLATION. Advisory Circular 45-2, Identification and Registration Marking, dated July
7, 1972, is cancelled.
4. GENERAL. Under the provisions of the Federal Aviation Act
of 1958 and implementing FAR, except as provided in FAR
section 21.182(b)(2), a civil aircraft must be registered and identified before it may be operated in the
United States. Federal Aviation Regulations Part 45 contains provisions concerning display and
description of nationality and registration marks on U.S. aircraft. Section 21.182 of the FAR,
requires each applicant for an airworthiness certificate to show that the aircraft is identified as
required in FAR section 45.11. Part 45 of the FAR sets forth the requirements for display of
nationality and registration marks; display of special airworthiness classification marks;
identification plates for aircraft, aircraft engines, propellers; and identification of certain replacement
and critical aircraft parts and components.
5. IDENTIFICATION OF AIRCRAFT AND RELATED PRODUCTS. The following paragraphs
provide an acceptable means of compliance with the identified sections of FAR Part 45, Subpart B.
a. Section 45.11, General. The term fireproof, as it relates to identification plates referenced
throughout this section, is defined by FAR section 1.1 to mean the capacity to withstand the heat
associated with fire at least as well as steel in dimensions appropriate for the purpose for which they
are used.
AC 45-2A 4/16/92
b. Section 45.11(b), Propellers and Propeller Blades and Hubs. Marks required by this section
are to be placed on a noncritical surface. If possible, for ease in identification, such marks should be
placed where they are visible without disassembly of the propeller.
c. Section 45.11(d), Aircraft Identification Plate. Except as provided in subparagraph (2)
below, aircraft manufactured before March 7, 1988, may display the identification plate required by
FAR section 45.11(a) at an accessible exterior or interior location near an entrance, if the model and
serial number are also displayed on the fuselage exterior. The display of the model and serial
number may be accomplished by use of a decal, paint, or bonded placard which meets the legibility
and location requirements of FAR section 45.11(a). These marks should be displayed in such a
manner that they are not likely to be defaced or removed during normal service.
(1) An "accessible location near an entrance" for an aircraft identification plate may be
either external or internal, and would be considered acceptable when it is visible to a person at, or
within, the entrance to the aircraft. "Accessible" does not mean that the identification plate must be
visible from the outside or without opening the door, or that it must be visible without removing
things such as baggage or carry-on items from the aircraft. For an aircraft with more than one door,
the entrance most used by the flight and servicing crews would be considered the most appropriate
location for the identification plate. If, under certain conditions, the plate is covered or enclosed in
any manner, its accessibility would be considered acceptable if it can be revealed without the use of
tools or removing aircraft components.
(2) Factory-installed identification plates on some models have been previously determined
to be "accessible" because they are installed on the fuselage exterior near the tail surface. In these
instances, an additional identification plate is not required. Owners are not expected to relocate
factory-installed identification plates required under FAR section 45.11(d), as this would be in
violation of FAR section 45.13(c).

Page 6
10. MISUSE OF AIRCRAFT IDENTIFICATION PLATES.
a. Part 45 of the FAR was amended effective September 4, 1979, (Amendment 45-10) to
explicitly prohibit any person from removing, changing, or placing information on aircraft, aircraft
engine, or propeller identification plates required by FAR section 45.11, and from installing or
removing such identification plates without the approval of the Administrator. This amendment was
in large part precipitated by the then existing practice of building an aircraft from spare parts and
installing the identification plate from a scrapped or destroyed aircraft. It was intended that this rule
change would serve as an effective tool which would discourage the misuse of identification plates.
There have also been a number of advertisements in aviation oriented periodicals offering aircraft
identification plates for sale, or indicating the need for certain identification plates. The purchasers
of such identification plates would be in violation of FAR section 45.13(c) and/or (e) if they were to
affix the identification plates, obtained as discussed above, on aircraft without approval of the FAA.
b. Specific approval of the Administrator is not required for persons performing work under
FAR Part 43 in accordance with methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator.
These persons may remove an identification plate during certain maintenance operations such as
caustic cleaning, paint removal, sandblasting, etc., when such work is being performed on the
4/16/92 AC 45-2A
structure to which an identification plate is fastened. In all such instances, under FAR section
45.13(e), the identification plate which was removed during maintenance operations must be
reinstalled on the product from which it was removed. Under no circumstances may a person
performing work under FAR Part 43 install an identification plate that has been purchased or
salvaged from another aircraft.

Just out of curiosity, cause I just did it for an engine, Has anyone recieved written permission from the FAA to install the Data plate on an aircraft or engine after getting the Plate from Piper, Lycoming, or Continental. We get the FAA to sign a paper so Piper or Continental will sell us a new data plate, but have they given us permission to put it on. I gotta check that out.

Way to go Murph........ain't ya'all glad ya axed thet there qwestyun?

Dataplate

On the J-3, the number welded to the fuselage frame is the FRAME NUMBER. This number was used by Piper for inventory control as they were building airframe PARTS faster than they were building complete airplanes. In the very early days the fuselage FRAME number probasbly matched the aircraft SERIAL number, but as time went on it becomes less likely that these two numbers match.

There IS a relationship between these two numbers though and Clyde Smith Jr. has copies of the records that match fuselage FRAME number with aircraft SERIAL number. If you know one, he can tell you what the other should be (along with some other information about your plane when it was new).

On the early J-3's the FRAME number was attached to the forward side of the main spar attach fitting (fueslage center, overhead - different from Super Cub construction). On later J-3's the FRAME number was attached to the overhead diagonal frame member near the right aft spar fitting.

Earyl J-3 data plates (with aircraft SERIAL number) were oval in shape and attached on the center of the instrument panel. Later J-3 data plates (as you see from Wag-Aero) were attached to the underside of the lid for the baggage compartment.

I know this discussion started with a question about PA-18 dataplates, and frankly I only know about J-3's, but after reading this string of postings, I hope this information answers some of the questions brought up.

John

I'm not ashamed either.

Mine's plenty big.

Oh.....and I'm holding a blank Piper Aircraft Corp. data plate in my hand.

Murph, I can put it in abusiness envelope and have it to you in about three working days.

Dave Calkins.

SD2 and other data plate concerned drivers,

In response to your question, you asked is it a major or minor alteration to move the plate to another location. You also mentioned you cruised through CFR Part 43, but as the follow on reply stated, you should be compling with CFR Part 45. which refer's to CFR 43. However, lets answer your question...

CFR 45.13 (b) and (d) both have that little pain in the butt statement about either being approved by the Administrator, or accepted. Couple that up with the blurb about Airworthiness from my earlier reply CFR Part 1 defines a major alteration as "blah, blah, blah,.....or other qualities affecting Airworthiness" which we said was it has to be safe for flight and conform to Type Design. So by re-locating the data plate and recording it in the log book is a noble attempt, the the A&P that did it and the IA that annuals it should know better and now becomes clupable (Geez, now two folks are in trouble). So if you wanted to re-locate it, record it on a 337 and when the IA submits it for approval through the locate Palace of the pencil pushers, once the FAA dude stamps it and sends it to the Aircraft Registry to record it....WaaLaah accepted/approved by da Feds and the legal beagles.

As for your scrap tin you bought from some "evil doer" from TaP. I would use them when your dead....your quote, not mine. You'd better have paper work from the legal entity that is responsable through product liability laws. Anyone can steal originals (wasn't that tough years ago) but there are control mechanisms in place now to control the issue of data tags. Each product holder has an approved process for "issuing" them to customers so check with Piper (yeh, right). Don't get caught or your be watching the rest of fly from the back seat!!

Hope it helps,
Later
VB