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Short Take-Off.

Jerry Burr

Jerry Burr

MEMBER
Sedro Woolley, Washington.
I guess this can be called an art as much as anything. It is a video clip of Denny Martel at the last Gulkana Competetion. It is his second 18 foot take-off. A caution to anyone on a dial up like me, it takes about 13 minutes to download. Have something else to do while you wait. Windows Media Player will usually play it. If you can play a DVD, this should work. http://www.supercub.org/upload/mov3.mpg should do it. Jerry. :D
 
Short Take-off

Jerry, How about posting some pictures of your cub? I think everyone on this board would like that. thanks
 
More pics would be great, I agree. Also, Jerry, that super cub in the video, is that a 150hp?? Can you tell us about that cub? Appears he only used first notch of flaps too..........was little difficult to tell for sure in the video though. That T.O. was amazing.......was there any wind blowing?? In a zero wind, how short can you get your PA-11 off consistently?? mI know it's short.
Brian
 
Wow, now I think we all have something to work on. :eek: Sure would be interesting to know more about that SC. Is it a standard wing? One notch of flaps? 150 HP? Are those 31" tires? What is the actual t/o weight? Looks like it might have a cuff? How hard does he have the tires pumped up?
 
More T/O & L/D.

Denny's Cub is Experimental, and he has a lot more lattitude than most of us do. It has a long wing / squared ends/ Demer tips. Long droop ailerons. Semi stock flaps, extended to fuse. Big tail. Little tail wheel. Atlee's big tanks. 30" airstreaks. Micro V.G's And lots of little stuff. Now the good stuff. Denny used to be a drag racer, need I say more? It started a 180hp. Shaved the cyls 3 or 4 times. Flowed. Equal length headers, 4 into 1. Ellison body F.I. . The big kick is the 150hp NOX kit. He is using welded in Foggers. He jets to the occasion, for the power needed. And a very long, very flat prop. The reason he isn't using much flaps in the video was time. This was taken a few years ago and has been improved upon since. I had built him a Low speed airspeed like mine. The problem we discovered was that he was accelerating faster than the airspeed could accruately read. Now he more or less rotates from brake release. We are kind of in the same spot now. Since Gulkana closed their doors, there is no reason to actively push research in this area. Why spend the time and money to train a good horse if there is no track to race it on? I have tried to get something going in Montana that woud be centerally located that everyone could attend. The heavy touring classes always drew a great crowd. And truly dedicated fans. If anyone can get something of the Gulkana class going, we would be more than willing to gear up and attend.
Here are a couple clips of my White Hawk Cub. They are longer, one is take-off and the other is landing. Enjoy. Jerry
http://www.supercub.org/upload/Mov5.mpg
http://www.supercub.org/upload/Mov11.mpg
 
Short Take-off

Jerry I was wondering what Denny does with the timing on the Lycoming when the Nitrous is put to it? I have used it in Automotive applications and we used a timing retard electronic box(which was supplied by the nitrous kit people) to take advance out of the ignition,otherwise you can turn good parts into scrap real easy. I was present at a drag race where a guy had a timing failure and the engine pushed both head gaskets out on a chevy engine. just wondering......
 
More TO & LD.

I just noticed a couple of things that I did not answer. For everyday use both of us are off in under 100 feet. On landing, the approach and touchdown are precision, but we both ignore the brakes. I have stock brakes with the 25" tires and just don't use them unless I have to. You might notice on the video we land with the brakes (ON). On takeoff I feed the power in very very slowly if it is the first takeoff of the day. If the engine is hot it's smile and go. My takeoff in the video is 30'. The landing is 65' My best takeoff during practice on Saturday was 17' and landing was 24'. It's hard to match practice with actual. Jerry.
I just noticed a new post. He resets the timing upon arrival. The new (non magneto type ) ignition system people have agreed to make a push button retard in their system if we want it. It just takes money. Jerry.
 
Thanks Jerry for the Vids............loved them..if you have more.please post. they're great. Those TO's are amazing..........so was the landing. Best I could tell there wasn't much of a wind blowing either........looked to be about 5kts or so. Thanks again
Brian
 
Jerry:
I would love to be able to get off around 100 feet consistently but my big question is: What do you have to sacrifice to get that kind of performance?
I need an aircraft that is hightly manueverable at lower speeds to keep up with a coyote ducking and dodging up a coolie and still be able to land and pick him up in any condition. (light or heavy, dry dirt or deep snow.)
only three things I've found so far that will help a stock cub is 1. get the best flying cub you can. this may take a lot of rigging trial and error or lots of plane trading--2. use the longest, flattest prop you can get attached --- and get everything out of the cub you don't absolutely need. this even includes a gunner. ie do it yourself. Maybe extended flaps or independent drooped ailerons would be ok too but i don't have any thing to base that on. Problem with no gunner is one less set of eyes but you can sure pack a lot more coyotes. What other kind of mods improve takeoff capabilities without decreasing maneuverability or dependability? Oh I almost forgot. convert to 160 hp too.
 
More Art.

Hi S2D. That's a tough question to answer in front of a thousand Cub types. When you get spare time go back over #1,#2,#3. You are on the right track. Beyond that I would square the tips and put on Ron Sullivan tips. Push the ailerons out to the tips. Ron has STC's for both. Extend the flaps into the fuselage. ( the screw on's are fine. ) You will still have good aileron control, and good visibility. I assume you already have Micro V.G.'s. I can fill in the blank spots if you contact me via private mail. Jerry.
 
Jerry (or some of the sheep hunter types) might be able to help me out here...

I see these vids of spectacular performance and know that it usually involves a healthy dose of experience and special mods. And some of the AK pros casually mention 400' strips at gross like it's all in a days work. I was shooting some landings on a local gravel strip the other day and decided to step off some distances. I was using around 400-500' of runway on takeoff (48g of fuel, otherwise light). My SC is basically a stock 150, no VGs, 74x50 prop. Living in Colorado, I've only got a handful of takeoffs and landings below 5000'. What are reasonable numbers for high elevation airports? What kinds of performance gains could I expect to see by switching to a long prop or adding other performance enhancement mods? Some day I will switch props and add VGs, otherwise I'm actually most interested in some hard numbers for altitude-induced performance differences, since my Cub is mostly a cross-country fun machine.
 
Rod.........I think most of use would agree that you will see the biggest performance increase with the Borer prop. I would conservatively estimate a 20% decrease in ground run. That is based on Midwest flying..........not sure how the prop performs at altitude.
 
C-couper, I'd say your numbers are very respectable. When someone tells me that they can do 250' I generally ask which 250'. I think the best pilots are able to pick a touch down point and keep it in sight until the plane hits. For me, it is not too hard to hit close to a big white spot on a sand bar or gravel runway with good approaches, but keeping in sight a touchdown spot on an otherwise fairly obscure strip is the real test. Keep on truckin'. pak
 
PAK raises a good point that I agree with. Landing short consistantly, even on a pretty short strip, but that is easy to see is only part of the skill. My experience has been that putting it on a spot and stopping short is not so hard anymore, it's finding the right 250' and keeping it in sight in a large area that pretty much looks the same as you keep changing perspective while going around that's tricky. If there happens to be something large and obvious close to touch down spot, great, if not it's harder. There are large open gravel and cinder areas around the volcanoes here like that. Lots of landable spots interspersed with big rocks, but at a short distance on a low approach, it all blends together and is a challenge to keep focussed on the right spot. The other thing, I guess, is having the spot obvious enough but having to maneuver around close terrain, trees or whatever to get to it.
 
From the day I picked up my cub I started working on spot landings. Even on the home airport with 2 miles of pavement I try to touch the mains down in the last few feet of the big white blocks. In college I shot on a competition rifle team... the coach was adament about aiming for the center of the 10 ring and not just the 10 ring itself. I try to use the same strategy in picking the spot on the spot where I want to land. After seeing Jerry's clips I still think that I'm a little too fast on the short approach and flair. My justification has been that the 5000' elevation makes the groundspeed higher. With my current technique, I'm usually pulling most of the power off in the last hundred or so feet of the approach. My guess is knocking another knot or two off the approach speed, and maybe "dragging it in" with a little more power would give even better spot control and a shorter rollout than what I'm getting.
 
I think you're right... the more you can slow things down the easier it seems to put it where you want it. Working close to the edge is something that needs to be approached carefully, of course. I find also that it helps to not think of it as "dragging it in with power", but rather "controlling my descent with power", notwithstanding what instructors hammered into me long ago. Potts book on bushflying techniques is good if you haven't read it already. "Operating" an airplane and "flying" are different, in my opinion.
 
Rod,

As Rush would say--"mega ditto's" I was taught that if the windmill quits you should still be flying not stalled! that works in a perfect world and most of the time that is possible in a cub. It is a fact though, as stated already that what is of equal importance that we touch down and 'stay down' and be able to stop in the shortest distance with the least amount of braking! To do this consistantly I believe all of us would agree that with a realitively stock cub you will be better off carring a little powr and "controlling the decent rate". The further out you can get set up the better. Jerry's video shows that quite well!

I have lots of time in a Supercub and only about 300hrs in a PA12 and I am having to relearn the game cause the deck angle is so high on approach that I have to add power in order to get it slowed down! To me it feels much like I used to fly my 185 into short strips!

As with your rifle shooting "take two breaths let one out and then 1/2 of the second one then squeeze her off (or in the case of your cub)queeze her on!

Practice, Practice, Practice

Tim
 
A Good landing, is the direct result of a good approach and that's applies whether you're landing after an ILS or a short, rough, off field landing. Plan things out, well in advance, have a good stabilized approach if possible, and keep your options open, unless you don't mind bending your bird. I totally agree with Tim.......practice, practice and then practice some more. Play it safe
Brian
 
Unless I missed someone mentioning it, there was a considerable wind factor that day.

Seams like I remembering it as being close to 25 - 30 MPH. Probably us regular Cub jockies could break ground in under 50 feet with the same conditions.

I'm not being critical, it was a great T.O. Way better than me.
 
Cub Driver Remembers.

Hi Cubdriver. I don't know which part of the crowd you were sitting in that day, but I have never seen a 20mph wind at Gulkana in all of the years that I was there. OK I take that back. There was one year about 2:30 in the morning. But let me try a different prospective for you. On Sunday afternoon it was warm and no wind. The top 4 airplanes from Saturday were competing in the Super Bush Challenge. Everyone was carrying 400 lbs of ballast. The average distances were 230,223,227,225 feet. In the Modified Super Bush Challenge there were 2 airplanes their average distances were 154 and 76 feet. You have to be standing next to it to believe it. Speaking of which, what we really need is a Contest in the center of the lower 48, right about where you are. Do I hear a volunteer? Jerry.
 
Hey, I'll just hop in one of the Cubs, throw in a piece of caribou jerky and a pint of water and head on over for THAT competition.

Sorry, Jerry, I just wish it were so easy to zip on over and say hello to you guys.

Merry Christmas.

Dave Calkins
 
Heck David,

It isn't that hard, I brought the Freightliner down from Anchorage on the 28th of January, coldest it got was one night in Northway at -10F felt like Summer!

Merry Christmas and throw a snowball for me!

Tim
 
ballast

Jerry reffers to 400lbs. of ballast. Does that mean that each plane in the contest is ballasted to be carrying 400lbs. of load??? 150 lb. pilot and 250 lb. of ballast=400lbs.???

If that's the case my 275lb. carcass could compete.

Don
 
I took care of 3 Beavers and 2 U-206's for an operator who had a very "thick" pilot working for him for several years.

The operator had an agreement with a certain lodge and did most of their flying work.

The German lodge owner was dismayed when he first saw the "large" pilot.

He exclaimed: "...Oohh, he ist three fishboxes...".

You can't take the big man out of the a/c if he happens to be the pilot. As always, the pilot reduces the payload.

Dave Calkins.
 
Ballast.

In the Super Bush Challenge Match, the 400lbs (gravel or bird shot, depends on if you were first or last in line) is correct sir. You ran light on Saturday and the top 4 airplanes were then qualified for the last event on Sunday which was with the weight. Supposed to equal a quarter of Moose, or something like that. You would have to think thin on Sat. I lost 17 lbs for the event one year. And I only weigh 155. :) Jerry.
 
Ballast

Hi Don D. Sorry I misread your statement. The weight is IN ADDITION to everything else. It was the only time I took my CUB belt buckle off. Jerry.
 
This contest isn't fair. I"m 275 naked.(that's not fair either) Tall for my size but still not a pretty sight. My cub wieghts 1125 with it's jato (isn't that what they call those rockets on the back) and droop everything except my belly. I'm 276 with just my belt on. 2 quarts of oil = 15. 3 gal fuel= 18 and the 400 ballast just to make it fair and uhhhhhh++++= 1834lbs. Check my paper work and 1750 max take-off wieght. Damn, the Feds are over there. I have to stay home, can't play with you guys. :cry: :cry: Too bad, with the rocket power, it takes off backward and pulls the runway up behind it.

Don

I'm from Idaho and I'm kinda backward.
 
Don D.

I am glad you are backward not Green, (be careful, you are not far from the Oregon boarder!)

Heck, My 12 is only legal to 1750 gross weight? I carry that much in the baggage department, Guess I am luckier then you guys cause the FAA has never been at the truck scales when I weigh the payload?

Does diesel really weigh less then avgas??

Tim
 
Heavy Hauler.

Don D. Hey have you checked out sherpaworldwide.com? This one will carry you and your family and your inlaws, and still get off as short as a Cub. Check it out. Run it in the heavy touring class. You'd smoke em. Jerry.
 
Slats

Hi Jerry,

I was reading one of your posts somewhere else on this site where you had mentioned That Byron Root had tried so many different modifications to the Cub wing and that led him into the Sherpa. It kind of got me wondering, has anyone tried movable slats kind of like the Courier only operated manually like with a flap type handle, pop em out on take off and landing and in for cruise, or is that getting too complicated and heavy?
 
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