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Overpriced Cubs

Indabush

Registered User
Interior Alaska
Do people really pay 90K or even 150K+ for cubs as listed on some web pages? If you paid that much for a cub, would you even think of landing off an airport? The average working man can't afford cub crafter cubs. In my opinion I think that the cub prices, along with spam cans are way overvalued. I mean look at what you get! Anyone with some common sense knows that these are simple machines, not leading edge technology. I guess we have to thank the lawyers who buy cub crafter cubs for this. The world is too sue happy, so we have to pay. Any solutions?
 
While I believe there are ways to keep the costs in line, when people ask me about learning to fly, I tell them it is expensive. It is probably the cheapest for those who have an A&P AI license or a great relationship with such a person, but still, if it is just a hobby - as it is for many of us - it is pricey.

Let's say you have a $40K PA18 special like I bought in 2000. It is not the most desireable model since it is 135hp, and it does not have flaps, and it has toe brakes.

Insurance, if you are not renting it out, as mentioned in another post is around $1300 per year give or take, hangar (if you don't have one at home like I would like to have) is another $1200 (for the lucky) and $3600 and up for the not so lucky.

Then there is avgas at $2.30 - $3.25 per gallon, adding $15-$20 per hour to the operating cost. If you are the average Joe you fly around 30 hours per year (scary), but probably cub pilots (since they have more fun) fly at least 100. I flew the cub 200 hours last year - $4000 in gas.

How about maintenance? Everybody knows this can be as little as a $200 annual to $30,000 in recovering and engine overhaul. I probably spent $4500 on the cub so far this year - not counting the $15000 prop ding teardown incident.

So how does it add up? To a lot of money, no matter how cheap the plane was to start with. All of my toys - guitars, cars, airplanes, computers, I buy to use not to look at, so I would have no problem bouncing around in the crud in a $150,000 airplane, I just can't afford one!

sj
 
Hans, that's because we are willing to go to war to keep our oil prices cheap. We could pump it out of the ground in missouri or kansas (thousands of inactive wells) but we would have to charge more for it...

Great shot of your airplane in your avatar. I'd like to see the full size picture of that one.

sj
 
Yes, its really expensive ( about: 110~140?=140$ per hour!) to rent a Cub in good old Germany.
It`s also hard to find a flight training school in Germany offering Flight training in Super Cubs. Normally here we fly Katanas, Cessnas 150er and other boring things.... :wink:
 
Dollar for dollar, I haven't found anything more satisfying

When friends ask (or the Fun Police hassles me) about the expense of flying I always reply this way: many people go through life spending their money in an effort to find something that makes them happy. Some people build big houses, others buy cars, or clothes, or jewelery. Many folks go through their whole life spending loads of money, and never discover the thing that brings them genuine, repeatable happiness. Flying my Super Cruiser, making the aviation friendships, visiting new places, and seeing the incredible beauty of North America provides me that happiness. And therefore the $10,000 to $15,000 I spend on it each year is entirely justified.
 
Joe and Hans:
Did you guys ever try burning that expensive whisky in a Cub? I bet Chivas would burn real good and probably is cheaper than AvGAs. Just a thought.
Kinda be a shame but, you could save the dregs from the chamois for after the flight.
 
Hi all,

@ joe and Hans,

I am just a student pilot and hopefully i will get my licence soon (scheiss wetter zur Zeit...as you probably know). I found out during my flying that the actual "stick-and-rudder" is the most fun to me. Just flying long X/C in a PA-28 with radio navigation from VOR to VOR is not quite what i call real fun....I am called the "Platzrundenjunkie" and spot landings are the most fun to me (4 bucks landing fee!, doing circuits in germany is kind of expensive too..). After all landing is the most stick and rudder i get..

I was always interested in cubs. Besides that i want to do some aerobatics as soon as i have my 50h required hours together...Some people say that is too early. But i still plan to try it out that soon.

What i would like to ask is if you know any place in the NRW area where i could get some tailwheel lessons, preferable in a Cub ;-)


....and perhaps i will visit Hans in a couple of years to get some mountain flying... :)

cu
Mirko
 
Hi Mirko

I guess over time we have to consider to open a German Corner in that great forum. It should have a few German speaking Super Cub owners and pilots out there.

There are about 150 Super Cubs registered in Germany, 50 in Switzerland and 40 in Austria.

Take care and many happy landings
und Frohe Weihnachten

Hans
 
Steve, did I miss some post somewhere? What prop ding?

To the original question, when I first started looking for a Supercub, I had no idea how expensive a simple tube & fabric plane would be, especially when compared to a Cherokee. (Cherokees have their usefulness, too, and I loved flying them). But I wanted to have FUN again while flying, not just being able to get from one place to another.

The more I looked, the worse shape the planes were in, and the more expensive they were. Through the Cub Club newsletter want ads, I found a homebuilt Super Sport, built from plans in 1985, one owner, GPS, transponder, tundra tires, recently overhauled 150 hp engine, excellent condition, $45,000. It won't appreciate like a factory-built plane, but I didn't get it for an investment - it was to have fun again! It's as close to a "real" cub as you can get, down to all its idiosyncrasies. The compass doesn't work, the greenhouse leaks, the seats are uncomfortable...but at this point I wouldn't trade it for anything else!

The point here is that maybe you should look for a homebuilt instead of a factory-built. I can't use mine for commerical purposes, but I didn't intend to anyway.

Anne.
 
Overpriced cubs

Good points Anne. I will have about 28 large in my homebuilt cub when Im done and I dont care about flying it commercially either.I did have to build almost every part myself to get in this price range with a used set of PA-18 95 wings. With a son headed into college next fall and another one close behind I cant even consider a real cub. Also on another part of this board there is the ugly "I" word...insurance, I just plan on liability only like I did on another homebuilt I had before. Risky in the sense of losing my toy but just my way of being able to participate in the "non Cherokee" world.
 
Back in the latter part of the last century I built a bushmaster with a mid time IO-360 and constant speed for less than $20K. Learn to weld, with $40K and about 2500 Hrs., some can build a new cub from scratch with new everything. Less $ if you put some good used stuff on it.

I have more time than money. I know I could get a part time job and work that 2500 hours, add the 40K and buy a good used cub, but what fun would that be?????

:x-mas:

Don
 
Anne, I did learn a little about your plane through the grape vine. It sounds like it was built right, basically a exact copy of a certified 18. It also seems that the builder had a LOT more in it, (just out of pocket, not labor) than it was sold for. Building is rarely a cheap way to get a plane. The only good reason to build is if you really love to build, and have the skills to do it properly.
 
Amen to that last post from SuperMD.

The only reason to build your own is for the love of it, And you need more than that, you need the ability and patience to do it right as well as the love for it.

Dave Calkins.
 
Mark, you're right, there was about $75k put into my plane, besides Don's time. Some parts were new, some fabricated, some used (but in good condition). A number of upgrades were added through the years, including the tundra tires, enngine overhaul, GPS , and transponder. Don didn't fly it much, so even though it was completed in 1985, there were only 200 hours on it when we bought it this summer, and only 100 hrs on the engine SMOH. This was his fourth plane, and he's got his own auto repair shop, so having the experience and the tools helps a lot.

I had mixed feelings about buying a homebuilt. Would a homebuilt be accepted by REAL Supercub pilots? What would it be worth when I needed to sell it? Would I be able to sell it at all? Insurance? Repairs? The last question was the easiest to solve: I can do repairs myself! Insurance: being a fairly low-time pilot (480 hours), and a new tailwheel pilot, I expect I'm paying about what I would if this had been a factory-built cub. Acceptance: so far I haven't gotten any razzing at all (at least to my face), which is a lot less than PA12driver gets!

So my advice still stands: a homebuilt, or possibly a rebuild, if money is short and time is available. If you buy a homebuilt, be sure you know the builder and his reputation, and it's not his first plane.

Anne.
 
The experimental question popped up again. Here is a real life example of a experimental Super Cub (Annes).

The builder spent 75K out of pocket on the plane. This was in 1985 dollars, purchasing the same parts and components could easily exceed 100K today.

He flew the plane for 200 hours and sold it for a 30K loss, with 0 compensation for time spent building, and as a side bonus, is now liable for the aircraft as the manufacturer.

Anne, you did good buying this Cub, it's the builder who gets the short end of the stick. The painful truth is that the same 75K in 1985 would have bought the nicest, best equipped certified Super Cub on the market. He could have flown it, instead of building, and probably ended up selling it for a lot more than he had in it, and not have to worry about the liability he has placed on himself and his heirs.
 
my dad and I had this discussion awhile back and what we came up with was purely hypothetical. Tell me what you guys think. What if the Owner/builder decomissioned his experimental aircraft, removed his/her dataplate and sold the plane in question as simply a list of materials? Then you attach your own dataplate under your name and get a new sign off by the feds. Wouldn't that effectively transfer liability to you? Might require a friendly fed (i.e. one that you know real well), but otherwise what's stopping you? I'm in no way implying that it be a shady deal or anything. In fact thats why I bring it up, is this a scenario that would fly legally?
 
jimmyfly said:
Then you attach your own dataplate under your name and get a new sign off by the feds

You have to prove to the FAA that you built 51%... Would be hard to prove with a completed, obviously flown, airplane...
 
dirk diggler said:
Is there anyway to get out from the liability of being the one who built the homebuilt? Is there a wavier that the buyer can sign to exclude the builder from liability?

In general a buyer, if he/she would be so silly, can waive their right to sue you and that waiver may be effective as to them but the waiver probably wouldn't extent to any subsequent purchasers. Check with your friendly local attorney.
 
I tried to buy a experimental once. The owner wanted to sell it, and I wanted to buy it. The owner/builder had his attorney try to come up with any way possible that would remove the owner/builder from the liability, and I was willing to do whatever it would take to remove him from liability, (sign something - even signing something saying the aircraft was unairworthy and should never be flown, sell it as "parts", ect.). They could come up with nothing that was bullet proof, and the aircraft was never sold. The deregister and sold as parts doesn't work. The owner/builder is still liable for the parts.

The biggest this is, I could sign something, then I would not be able to sue - BUT, If I killed myself in the thing, my family could sue. If I hurt someone else, they could sue. If I sold it to someone else, they could sue, and on and on.

Basically, if the owner/builder or his heirs has enough assests that he is worth going after, they will go after him.
 
dirk diggler said:
I know of several exp aircraft that were flying, then deregistered and sold as parts and the buyer got a new n-number and data tag.

Well, obviously you live in the best FSDO district... Most FSDOs, that I'm aware of, won't do it...
 
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