Flaps

Hi folks,

I just picked up my Sportsman 2+2 (PA-14 replica). It is a partially completed project. There are some newer airplanes (such as Zenith 701/801) that use flaperons. These are a combination flap and aileron. My question is this, "Has anyone ever heard of converting the airlerons to flaperons?" People keep telling me that I don't need flaps on one of these birds. Does anyone have any comments on that? It seems that if it would fly good without flaps, it would be even more versatile with flaps. This is an experimental so I don't have to worry about the paperwork if I were to try to convert the ailerons. I am at least two to three years away from getting in the air.

Thanks,

Russ

YES, FLAP THE THING

Hey Russ, Dave Calkins here.

Absolutely DO install flaps on this PA-14/2+2!!!!!!!

The PA-14 had flaps from the factory.

PA-12's came flapless from the factory. But most refurbishers install them.

It's good that you asked advice about this topic. I'm surprised that you have yet to receive a reply.

Those who would advise you to build the 2+2 without flaps haven't got a clue. I'm guessing you spoke to one isolated individual who hasn't been flying in awhile or lives in their own little world.

To directly answer your question, yes, there are several mixer designs available that droop the ailerons with flap application.

To more directly answer your question, no, I haven't heard of any "flaperon" installations on a PA-14. (truly full span flaps that are also ailerons)

It seems to work well with the Kitfox series.

Hey, to qualify myself, I fly a PA-14 on floats, big tires, wheel/skis, and straight skis. The a/c has a 150HP lycoming with 82/42 prop.


I was happy to receive some info. on the droop systems and other topics that I got from Jerry Burr.

I don't know Jerry personally, but his posts have been up on these forums, and you may be able to contact him through his "bio.", etc. in order to help you make a decision.

I've been flying Cubs since my first "real" (logged) 100 hours flying, and the first was a PA-11 that I'm presently renovating for my wife to enjoy. (Yeah, I'll be loving this sweet airplane too, but my wife just started on her private and will want a Cub for her intentions). I have the flaps and associated hardware and this thing will definitely have them installed.

To continue with your question. I spoke to a guy the other day here in Anchorage that has an experimental that started as a PA-20. It is far from one now as the fuse was lengthened, it sports an O-470 (6 cylinder), but has Cub wings that have been lengthened and has llloooooonnnggg flaps that are suspended under the wings in the fashion of the Kitfox, Storch, etc. He has kindof short ailerons outboard of the flaps. The thing is disappointing in roll performance. The previous owner added some chord to them, but the roll is still lazy. Maybe VG's would help. Anyway, he's not happy.

Talk to Jerry Burr. He has quantified his opinions with flight testing and has an interesting experimental droop kit that can be deactivated for certain flight regimes.

Good luck, sorry this was so long. Let me know what you think.

Dave Calkins, Anchorage, Alaska.

Russ, copy the PA-14 as close as you can. It has great performance with stock ailerons and flaps. It's roll rate is even faster then a stock PA-18 wing. You will not be disappointed, anything else is anybodys guess. Crash

Crash, how short a strip would you feel comfortable operating your PA-14 out of with no obsticles, and say with 25ft trees. You guys know what your talking about up there, and I want to see if I'm in the ballpark.

Tim
2+2

Tim, I'm not presently working out of anything VERY short, also having obstacles at the ends. Kindof short, clear both ends, yes. Long, with obstacles, yes.

I have the 14 on floats this time of year and can't go out and work up any numbers for you right now either.

My airplane is 150HP with an 82/41, 3 inch extended gear with 8.50-10's on GarAero adapters, BLR VG's on stock wings, PA-18 stock tail.

It's abit piggy. Lightly loaded, it still ain't no Super Cub or PA-11.

If I took a wild guess on 25 foot high obstacle clearance, I'd say 750 feet would be required.

I think Crash has 180 horses on his 14. That's another wild guess, with recollections from past posts of his I've come across.

Have fun. What are your numbers?

Dave Calkins, Anchorage.

Dave
My 2+2 dosen't have flaps, but I have spoilers. I have an 0-320 160hp. Me and about 15gal of gas can get over 25ft trees in about 600ft. I don't know if that is good or not. I don't have VGs but plan to put them on in the future, I think they may help. I can get on the ground fairly good with the spoilers. With a good approch I can be down and stopped in 275ft. I know this is a far cry from what a supercub can do but it's all I have.

Tim
2+2

PA-14

2+2 Tim: All my real time is in the same PA-18 I've owned for years. I'm so comfortable in my old Super Cub it feels like a glove. I don't think twice about getting in it and going some where, just like someone feels about their car. The PA-14 is still new and strange to me, but every hour I put in it the more I like it. If I had more time in it I think I could take it anywhere I take my Super Cub. When it was on wheels I'd say it took maybe another 50' to get off compared to the PA-18. On floats it gets off better then most PA-18's I've seen especially with a second passanger as their weight is under the CG with the pilot. I feel it really takes a load well. The question you ask, boils down to the conditions at the time. You know, temp., wind, load in the plane, fuel etc.. In the right conditions I might take it all the way down to 300'. Like I said, I would allow only another 50' more then the PA-18. The way I have them set up is the the PA-14 is on floats and the PA-18 is on 30" tundra tires. I use them for two different missions. The PA-18 is beat up and patched used for tight rough strips usually hunting moose or caribou. The PA-14 is a show piece inside and out that I use mainly for fishing. Crash

Thanks Guys
Crash and Dave do you think VGs would get me off the ground any faster? If so how much?

Tim

Tim, the greatest attribute that VG's provide for the aircraft I have operated with and without VG's, is greater aileron authority at low speeds.

The BLR kit on the Beaver seems to make it more stable in turbulence also.

The 180/185's I haven't spent enough time in to notice anything but the greater roll authority, which is what the 185 drivers are saying also.

The PA-11 with VG's only on the wing definitely gets firmer, more effective ailerons when slow. It also will fly more slowly, power on, at a muuuuccchh higher angle of attack than without the VG's.

However, flying this slow, at a very high angle of attack cannot be used for takeoff or landing unless I installed an extended landing gear that raised the nose another 3 feet. This is obviously dreaming. It would be great to utilize the ability to fly so slow, but the very high angle of attack makes it impossible to use in the real world. Yes, I could approach very nose high and touch down on the tailwheel first. But the 3 bounces it takes to recover from the mains dropping, uses up precious landing distance that I would have used for braking with a normal 3 point landing. I've tried it, it doesn't pay to have the bounces. Also, it stresses the whole airplane to stick that little tailwheel in the rocks first.

Here's the answer to your question of whether VG's help takeoff performance.
No.
If you could design a very long landing gear to get the nose high, Yes.

The VG's to me seem to be a mod that increases safety by providing better aileron performance, along with the ability for the wing to hang on longer before stalling. Someone who spends alot of time in their airplane will recognize the limitations of an un-VGed wing naturally and never get to the flight regime where he needs this safety unknowingly. VG's may provide an extra margin for these guys, as well. But there are still REAL Cub jocks out there who claim no need for them and maybe even scoff at them.

The observations for the 11 agree with those of the 18 and 14. In general feel, the brand of VG kit doesn't make a difference. Though I haven't flown the new kit with the Big VG's.

VG's are cheap and have a great effect, but not what you were hoping.

If you are running small tires with stock gear, the biggest difference you could make would be to go for extended gear and bigger tires to get the nose in the air. Jerry Burr has posted several times on this website. I don't know him, but he has some great information and seems to back it up with testing. He might have some ideas for you.

Dave Calkins.

I would agree on all of the last posts! I fly regularily with a guy that is a superb cub pilot and flys at least 3-4 times a week always off airport. I can tell you this, he can take a stock cub with big tires and a 41 pitch prop into anywhere a cub will go. The key is knowing the plane (You are right on Crash) you got to wear it like a glove!!

As for me, I flew thousands of hours in stock winged cubs with the only mods being strengthing the fuselage, 3" extended gear, 26-29 or 31" tires and a borer prop. I felt real comfortable getting into slightly less then 300ft and out of the same, not to say I haven't been into some quite a bit shorter, wind and aproach considering.

The Aileron control is the biggest improvement that VG's seem to make on a PA-18 and that is only noticable at high angle of attack. Also the tail will have a little more authority at slower approach speeds (power off)

I am flying my PA12 now with Micro VG's on a stock wing with the exception of PA18 flaps, and Hendrix tips. 160 hp and 8241 prop. The nose is slightly lower on approach with full flaps, and I have a definite increase in Aileron control at high angle of attack.

The biggest difference in the performance of the PA12 was in combination of the VG's and the installation of "6"inch extended PA18 gear and 29" tires. my takeoff roll was shortened by at least 50ft. As I can now get the tail down to rotate. (zero wind- 15 gal fuel and my 190lb but in a consistant 170ft at sea level.

With adequate braking and minimal obstacle I can get her in in about 250ft.

The Nose attitude is still (to darn high) to please me!!) My next project is to extend the flaps in to the fuselage and out to the the next rib bay! and at the same time move the ailerons out to the wing tip)

Hope this helps someone, (it did help my typing practice)

Tim

flaps

Put the flaps on your plane. You will wish you did later. Spoilers and flaps both would be a consideration. What ever, keep the wieght down.

Alot of dicussion about required landing areas. I don't fly a cub but my bushmaster is similar in many ways. I can get in and out lightly loaded in 200ft. in ideal conditions with no obstacles. But I like 300ft so well that I seldom land where I have less than 500ft. I can bounce 100ft easy. There are so may variables that there is no simple formula to determine whats enough room to safely land and take off . I do some off airport stuff on various gravel bars along rivers and maybe a ridge top now and then. If i'm concerned about the length, I slowfly over the spot at 50 Kts and if it takes at least 5 seconds to fly the length I figure I can land and get off with no obstacles.

I live in Idaho and have to deal with some high altitudes and temperatures. At density altitudes below 5000 I can get out of anywhere I can land. Above 5000 probably not . Load the plane to gross wieght (2300#)and I can land shorter than I can takeoff at any altitude.

Thanks for all the responses. I am convinced that I want to put flaps on. I have talked with Wag-Aero and they tell me that the wings will accomodate flaps but they don't have plans for them. So...Does anyone know where I can get plans for flaps? My wings have aluminum spars with wooden ribs. I know have a buddy locally that has super cub wings with flaps but he has aluminum ribs and I was hoping to find plans that are intended for wooden ribs.

Russ

You can modify the inboard ribs into the same as aileron ribs and use Super Cub flap, flap handle and linkage system to get some flaps. The 2+2 plans actually have a page with a flap drawing but no other data for installing flaps. Much of the details will have to be worked out on your own but it can be done. I would personaly lose those wood ribs and go with Dakota cub or the alum. ribs by Carlson aircraft, Carlson is the supplier of alum. ribs and spars in the wag aero wing kits. Basically if you copy the Super Cub flap system it will be relatively simple.

Russ, copy the PA-18 system. The drawing number is 14394, Piper A/C Corp.

I fully agree with Cub Junkie that modifying as the aileron ribs is what you need to do.

If you don't make a change to Aluminum ribs, be sure to use an epoxy varnish on the wood ones. Epoxy is the only thing that will keep that wood alive for you and the next generation. Don't go cheap on what you use to seal ANY wood on this project or others. Poly-Fiber Epoxy Varnish is a GGGGRRRReeeaaat product, even if expensive.

I recommend a change to aluminum ribs, as Cub Junkie has advised.

The Univair "stamped" (Hydroformed) ribs are stout, and provide twice as much rib "cap"-width to hit when attaching leading edge metal screws, but are a bit heavier.

The Dakota Cub ribs are Piper look-a-like, truss frame, works-of-art, that are much, much, stronger than Piper's ribs, with a slight weight penalty.

If you can afford aluminum (Thank You, Dakota Cub for entering the market and halving the price of replacement ribs!!!!! Sincerely!!) do it.
If not, then seal the wood with varnish and proceed.

A source for the drawings is a CD-Rom that has most of the Piper engineering drawings and is available for about 40 bucks.

I think there has been some discussion on this site, and you can track it down here.

Good Luck. Think Light. Work Hard. Shoot for perfection.

Dave Calkins.

PS even if you don't achieve perfection, shooting for it usually gets you to the acceptable level, when shooting for average may not even get you acceptable.

Pa-12/14 flaps

Anyone have an idea where I could find drawings for the actual pa-12/14 flap I need to be able to be able to replace some parts on damaged flaps and am unable to determine if what I have is correct I have a bunch of pa-18 nose ribs/bulkheads where I believe should be pa-12/14 bulkheads I have ordered quite a few parts from Univair with there assistants that are incorrect and stodards was not able to give any advice

also I thought that there should be a doubler behind the hinges

my aircraft is a stretched pacer with modified 12 wings three hinged flaps and ailerons and Sullivan tips
each of these mods were done under separate field approvals. The approvals have little detail as which parts were used

both controls are flat bottomed sharper pointed leading edge

Levi Wood

Dave Calkins said:

Hey Russ, Dave Calkins here.

Absolutely DO install flaps on this PA-14/2+2!!!!!!!

The PA-14 had flaps from the factory.

PA-12's came flapless from the factory. But most refurbishers install them.

It's good that you asked advice about this topic. I'm surprised that you have yet to receive a reply.

Those who would advise you to build the 2+2 without flaps haven't got a clue. I'm guessing you spoke to one isolated individual who hasn't been flying in awhile or lives in their own little world.

To directly answer your question, yes, there are several mixer designs available that droop the ailerons with flap application.

To more directly answer your question, no, I haven't heard of any "flaperon" installations on a PA-14. (truly full span flaps that are also ailerons)

It seems to work well with the Kitfox series.

Hey, to qualify myself, I fly a PA-14 on floats, big tires, wheel/skis, and straight skis. The a/c has a 150HP lycoming with 82/42 prop.


I was happy to receive some info. on the droop systems and other topics that I got from Jerry Burr.

I don't know Jerry personally, but his posts have been up on these forums, and you may be able to contact him through his "bio.", etc. in order to help you make a decision.

I've been flying Cubs since my first "real" (logged) 100 hours flying, and the first was a PA-11 that I'm presently renovating for my wife to enjoy. (Yeah, I'll be loving this sweet airplane too, but my wife just started on her private and will want a Cub for her intentions). I have the flaps and associated hardware and this thing will definitely have them installed.

To continue with your question. I spoke to a guy the other day here in Anchorage that has an experimental that started as a PA-20. It is far from one now as the fuse was lengthened, it sports an O-470 (6 cylinder), but has Cub wings that have been lengthened and has llloooooonnnggg flaps that are suspended under the wings in the fashion of the Kitfox, Storch, etc. He has kindof short ailerons outboard of the flaps. The thing is disappointing in roll performance. The previous owner added some chord to them, but the roll is still lazy. Maybe VG's would help. Anyway, he's not happy.

Talk to Jerry Burr. He has quantified his opinions with flight testing and has an interesting experimental droop kit that can be deactivated for certain flight regimes.

Good luck, sorry this was so long. Let me know what you think.

Dave Calkins, Anchorage, Alaska.

Click to expand...

Levi

Looks like Cub Club might have a flap drawing for the PA-14.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT] dwg 11686 Flap assembly shows measurements 24" x 36" $8.00 check with Steve Krog sskrog@aol.com

Wayne